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00:00
The idea is that you write a minimal functional program that involves multiple layers of code. This way you get a feel of how it is connecting and whether it's gonna work or not.
So a "tracer bullet" would be a Lua script that generates a UI using my code through the API bindings.
It's an approach that I originally read in the "Pragmatic Programmer" and I've found it to be very valuable.
@Cicada it is a very interesting problem in its own right. i wish i had your job, and the physicist' ;-)
However, at this point I can just send you the draft of my code. Sec..
This is my repository. The changes I added today are messy, so best have a look at the revision from two days ago (f905c7e916e0).
I'm not so familiar with Mercurial yet.
The code is cross-platform, but only added makefile for OS X. Haven't yet integrated it with Cat's build system.
Actually build command is simply g++ -o run-test find . -name "*.cpp"` -std=c++0x -Wall -Werror -Wextra -pedantic-errors -ggdb3 -O0 -I.. -isystem ${HOME}/QtSDK/Desktop/Qt/4.8.0/gcc/include -F/Users/francis/QtSDK/Desktop/Qt/4.8.0/gcc/lib -framework QtGui -framework QtCore`
Oh, yea, I probably am totally breaking the code style. I was intending no fixing that.
I wonder if should go see Bjork.
She's coming to a one of the summer music festivals in Belgium.
00:23
never heard of bjork
Seriously?
@ScottW Icetarted!
@StackedCrooked nop
I mean figuratively.
bjørk, the sugarcubes
i can't remember more
ah, mezzoforte
@DeadMG So you have never seen or heard of Bjork before? You're not being sarcastic or something?
00:26
@ScottW what knd of music is that?
Unicode music.
hm, "post-rock"
@StackedCrooked I'm not being sarcastic.
Ok then. I thought she was quite popular in UK.
@StackedCrooked Maybe she is. What makes you think that I would be aware of what's popular here?
00:28
Exposure?
@StackedCrooked To what?
Wow. Not the same person anymore...
@DeadMG UK? Outside world?
what about it?
Just radio airplay.
I don't listen to the radio
why would I?
00:30
Lol.
what's so funny?
there's nothing interesting on the radio
I sometimes listen to a Belgian radio station called "Studio Brussel".
@DeadMG How do you know if you never listen?
@StackedCrooked Because you can only hear what other people choose to broadcast.
Radio sucks.
why would I go into a situation where the public broadcasters (rofl) broadcast random crap just because it's popular?
00:33
Make your own radio. It's called Background YouTube. YIB
instead of, say, retrieving whatever I want, whenever I want to, broadcasted by anyone.
@DeadMG How do you discover new music?
I need to discover new music?
At one point in your life you must have discovered some music.
At least..
I only discover 1970-1990.
And just a few from there.
00:34
@ScottW I've been too lax. I want to experience new music again.
@StackedCrooked Stole it from relatives and then-friends, mostly.
I used to have an semi-automated system that exposed me to recently high rated albums on metacritic.
Discovered a great deal of interesting music that way.
I usually find that my taste driven by Dire Straits, AC/DC, Eric Clapton and the like is incompatible with the 21st. Well, almost.
I'm like USB 3.0, today is just USB alpha test spec.
It is sad when all the guys who made your favorite music are today either dead or waiting for death.
Anyone heard of Spencer Krug? (Just curious.)
Cool!
@ScottW Well, they had time to deal with it. :Đ
00:42
@ScottW I didn't expect that!
damn
Some of my favorite bands.
I wanted to work more on my Wide spec today
but I've already been awaek for five hours and I've not done jack shit on it except fix one broken link
Apollo and the Buffalo and Anna Anna Anna Oh! :D
@DeadMG One link at a time!
lol
well, I realized that many areas which I'm specifying, I simply don't have much experience in.
but I guess that I only need a rough spec for them right now
00:45
@DeadMG I'm guessing that Stroustrup didn't have all too much experience when he created C++.
very true
@ScottW Hm, I don't know any of those.
-1
Q: How do I make a function run for only one minute

george manoHow do you make function foo() run for only a period of time? I think threads is the most common way of impementation. How do I use bind and timed_join ??

people with brilliant ideas
I've stopped discovering new music a few years ago. I think St Vincent was one of the latest.
@ScottW Aye!
@ScottW Yep, that one.
You are hereby my appointed music recommendator.
Do you like Drive by truckers?
why is it people in comment threads never come to the chat to continue them, even when the site basically begs you to and you ask them to?
00:57
@ScottW ... They're quite cool. Genre is alternative country. Just like Neko Case. Have you heard of her? (Just being curious :D)
@DeadMG Severe shyness?
Wilco is coming to Belgium this summer.
However, I'm not familiar with the band at all..
@ScottW Ever heard of ..erm, Kalafina?
(I'm cheating now.)
Ok, listing to King of Carrot Flowers now.
I was?
hmmmm
to define interoperability with C++ as part of my specification?
well, I was really going with "Yeah."
I don't have to do source compatibility (unlike C++ to C).
so I reckon I can offer a relatively simple library-ish interface.
01:10
MS COM.
hm?
Never mind.
sides
if I ever want to write my compiler in Wide, or achieve reasonable popularity, it's realistically going to have to be offered
@ScottW They are being all evangelic now.
Is 4chan offline? They were offline for me yesterday and today as well...
Hey it works now!
It works on Firefox, but not on Chrome. Guess I need to delete cache and cookies as mentioned.
works fine for me from Chrome
01:16
Apparently the offline page was cached ...
roflcakes
It works now.
After clearing cookies and cache.
hmmm
Wide::Standard::Containers::Vector<std::string> x;
lol
@StackedCrooked He left mid-way through a PhD to do it.
@DeadMG Oh, so that's what you look like.
01:27
@EtiennedeMartel Like a lol?
what I look like?
pretty sure there's close to, if not, 0 pictures of me on the Interwebs, and I like to keep it that way.
Avatar is seen on gmail.
@DeadMG Well, as long as that's your face on your Google profile.
@DeadMG is going all SHIT now..
well, I honestly didn't think about that
although, just FYI, that picture is at least seven years old.
01:29
Oh. So you got facial hair now?
depends on if I bothered to shave recently
damn, you know, I can't even find any privacy settings at gmail
there
stupid gmail had it set to showing to everyone
le why would you default to that? fuckers
anyway, you guys can't still see it, right
Is assume my pic can be seen as well then? (Not that I care..)
@StackedCrooked Wouldn't even know where to look
@DeadMG Sent you a test reply. Perhaps you can see the sender's avatar.
I can't see yours anymore btw.
checked the google group and only cosh is up there
01:37
@DeadMG I changed the time on the wiki to be UTC.
@StackedCrooked Yeah, you can.
Are you Obama?
I figured.
Yo, dawg, we heard you like lambdas, so we made you a lambda that takes lambda, so you can lambda while you lambda.
01:51
whoops
nearly specified something as returning boost::variant.
Old habits die hard. :Đ
It's like that movie.
you know, maybe I should just make people bind libclang if they want to do this
it's more difficult than I had imagined to specify an interface which can allow you to interact with C++, since it's an annoying bitch.
Isn't that what SWIG also does?
something like that
but on a textual level, not semantic
01:55
Most programming languages have a C FFI.
yeah
not a C++ FFI
maybe I should just skip a static interface and make it a dynamic one
then you could do something like Standard.C++.Header("iostream").cout << "Hello, World!";
at least, in principle
C Fucking For Information
Wash your mouth with soap please.
@StackedCrooked My developer didn't have that functionality readily available in his language and no FFI for languages which did. So, no soap for me. :(
But I have cookies. Lots of them.
And they don't expire. :$
@DomagojPandža Ok, you're gonna have to bend over now. Don't worry it'll just take a sec..
02:03
Nobody else in our midst tonight? I guess they should be around in an hour or two.
Around 7.
@DomagojPandža Would have thought you'd be sick of $ after coding in PHP.
x := Standard.C++.Header("vector").std.vector(int)();
that's pretty clean and natural, right?
Almost, dots would be a little strange at first, but no problem getting used to.
well, it's a library-style extension, not a language extension, so it has to be parsable valid Wide
but I can use the member lookup failure mechanism to make it work
which is nice
and from C++, you can do #wide Standard, and then use Wide::Standard::Containers::Vector<int> x;
@DeadMG I actually think about a world where I rid the world of the PHP plague with a new language whose core was implemented in modern C++ and everybody accepted it and dealt with the fact it is time to move on to better things. But then I think about reality for a sec, I'd just get a pat on the back and a "nice try". And then I get depressed.
@DeadMG This is nice. :D
02:09
I figure that should make going between Wide and C++ super easy
Rewriting the PHP core in C++, reworking all of its mistakes from the ground up, holding onto its obnoxious simplicity that people "appreciate"? Nah, couldn't bear it holding the name PHP after all that work. It would be an another language.
Also, $ sucks dick.
agree
oh, man, I'm a moron
did I really show a sample with Standard.C++?
Standard.CPP, it would have to be.
Nevermind that, it's clear what you meant. :D
indeedy
.c++ as an extension would be sexy, if not for all the problems.
02:16
like what?
command line tools getting confused with weird input :D
lol
too true
h := Windows.CreateFileW(
    "out.txt".CStr(Encoding.UTF16),
    ParseInt(Windows.Macro("GENERIC_READ")) | ParseInt(Windows.Macro("GENERIC_WRITE")),
    0,
    0,
    ParseInt(Windows.Macro("CREATE_ALWAYS")),
    ParseInt(Windows.Macro("FILE_ATTRIBUTE_NORMAL")),
    0
));
you know, it's actually kind of nice to be able to put that shit in a namespace
Looks nice. :D
Next week, finally some rest to put in work on Kyrostat, besides the web HQ
sounds good to me
and soon I will have a nice copy of the latest Burn Notice
03:11
aaaargh
why do companies pull this shit?
"For some random reason, you must now wait two weeks to view the next episode!"
:(
hello..
@DomagojPandža - char* are 'actual C++'. I even stated I wanted to strafe away from strings in this particular section of code. I didn't say I wasn't using string anywhere else. — Di-0xide 4 mins ago
Some people simply don't understand the point of it all.
He strafes away on one piece of code and ends up asking a question about access violation in that particular piece of code.
And then asks what's the problem with naked pointers and c-style strings.
Oh, @DeadMG, he left you some text as well. Lucky you. Ahahah.
wow... I have Jon Skeet beat in the Java tag this month...
looks ridiculous...
@DomagojPandža Couldn't you just write a LLVM backend that outputs PHP?
And then you could write your code in C++.
That's some true ownage, almost a factor two.
@EtiennedeMartel No, rewriting PHP's core (the actual implementation)
So that PHP is still PHP, but sucks dick less.
03:22
@DomagojPandža Impossibru
@DomagojPandža Might as well write an implementation for a real language then.
It's still PHP. You can't make it right, no matter how hard you try.
@EtiennedeMartel Yup, that's pretty much the conclusion there. :D
If you get drunk, though, you might think it's possible. But then you wake up with a headache and the feeling that it's a terrible idea.
The unfortunate thing is, given enough time, I could outdo PHP (well, that's not really an impressive statement even, it was called a tool for editing your Personal HomePage). But people adopting it, hardly.
And written by a guy who admits himself that he hates programming.
@DomagojPandža PHP is a perfect example of something that has grown organically.
Thing is, it became ridiculously popular.
And it's a pretty good proof that something being popular doesn't mean it's good.
It's like the perfect counter argument to the argumentum ad populum.
03:27
PHP is Kim Kardashian. With no boobs and no ass.
@DomagojPandža Well, she's got huge tits, so there you go.
Yeah, Kim Kardashian > PHP.
wow, that's one ugly bitch
That ugly bitch sells. Sort of like PHP.
I'm a Dita von Teese kind of guy. Down to the Earth, hotter than hell and pretty smart for her line of work.
Dita von Teese is sort of like C++.
Except for template system, it is ugly. I try to call it elegant, but I can't make myself do it.
03:30
I don't think she looks particularly appealing either
I wonder, who is particularly appealing to you, MG?
@DomagojPandža Are you saying templates are ugly, or C++ without templates is ugly?
@DomagojPandža Dude, please. I have a screen name for a reason.
03:31
They are ugly, useful, but ugly. And C++ without them, also ugly.
@DeadMG ANSWER THE QUESTION
@EtiennedeMartel Sorry, didn't realize I was supposed to spend my spare time finding women to objectify?
Ah, why must you always be so serious?
Ahahah. Probably Jade Raymond, quazi-programmer from Ubisoft, former SCEI :Đ
@DomagojPandža She's at Ubi Toronto now. Used to be a producer at Ubi Montreal.
Fun fact: the engine used for the Prince of Persia trilogy was named Jade. I'll let you guess why.
03:34
I'd like to wify her and then objectify, MG-style.
But, yeah, she's the girl they always rolled out because she looked good.
(She was competent as well, yes, but that's not why she was on the forefront so much)
I never met her in person though. She had left before I got in there.
I remember, you worked at Ubi for some time. What were your tasks? :D
Tool programmer. Although as an intern, I had pretty well defined tasks.
Mostly, I worked on a tool that monitored the build server and, when someone broke the build, would cause an icon in everybody's taskbar to turn red, and clicking on it would show a popup displaying the name of the one who broke it.
etienne, u no room owner?
could have sworn you were
@DeadMG Nope. I'm not in the "frequently in room" bunch.
03:40
huh
must be my bad memories
Funny thing though, is that there are 11 owners, and the "frequently in room" list is 10 user long.
@EtiennedeMartel Ahahah, that's epic. We need to do that for Kyrostat.
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah. We made an exception because the bottom of the list is not very reliable.
@DomagojPandža Yeah. And then, if you broke the build, a window would pop in your face ("always on top") and tell you you broke it.
Best thing is that the tool is still in use in several teams there.
One of my friends did an internship there last summer, and he told me that in his team, they had some sort of disgusting "totem" that landed on your desk if you broke the build.
Once, he broke the build, and as soon as he saw the popup he knew he was screwed, and sure enough, a guy was dumping the totem on his desk at the exact second the build turned red.
Ahahahah
I LOVE OUR LINE OF WORK.
Fuck, there's nothing more glorious than software engineering.
03:46
Especially in the games industry. It's like nobody ever grew up.
So, yeah, I made tools. And in my current job, I'm also making tools. If you asked me, I would say I'm mostly a C# programmer that knows C++.
I once made a Visual Studio plugin. Don't try this at home, kids, it's incredibly painful.
It's basically a poorly wrapped COM API.
it is a poorly wrapped COM API
Yeah. Why can't they make a nice, clean .NET API? It's not like they lack the manpower.
because vs sucks
They're too busy changing the overall look of VS, which was perfectly fine in VS2010.
You know, Microsoft is incredibly varied. On one end, you got .NET, which is quite well designed, and on the other end, you got VS, which is a piece of inadequate crap.
you mean the "The original version didn't even ship with generics" .NET?
or ... well, we already had this discussion, but I'd heartily contest the idea that .NET is well-designed.
03:55
@DeadMG I'd call that "time constraints".
But, yeah, .NET 1.1 was a load of piss.
@EtiennedeMartel If that was their excuse, then I'd just call that "poor management".
@DeadMG Maybe they just wanted to ship it as fast as possible.
@EtiennedeMartel No point shipping garbage. Especially with languages. All that happens is you're stuck supporting it for the rest of eternity.
@DeadMG "garbage" is relative.
As much as it pains me to say it, Apple has an awesome native toolset. Too bad it revolves around Objective-C
03:57
@EtiennedeMartel It's difficult to define "garbage" if not as "Lacking absolutely essential features for the product to be good"
And their naming conventions are clean, Microsoft yells at me. :'(
see, I don't even get how it happened, I mean, C++ was proving how awesome templates were since like, 1990 or something like that.
there was plenty of time in the middle
D3D11_SUBRESOURCE_DATA
D3D11_BUFFER_DESC
D3D11_INPUT_ELEMENT_DESC
So much caps.
@DeadMG Even then, you just work around it. But, yeah, lack of generics is a pain.
Caps everywhere.
03:59
@DomagojPandža Thank god .NET has no caps.
I still have way less workarounds in C# than in C++. And less boilerplate. And I need less code.
In short, there's less that stands between my idea and the implementation in C# than in C++.
C++ will fuck you until you give up or learn to like it. :Đ
@EtiennedeMartel At Ubisoft, how much is English thrown around? And how well at the same time? :D
I imagine there's a lot of French too.
At Montreal? Most people speak French.
Although standard Québécois behavior to "speak English if an Anglophone is in the room, even if he understands French" is quite common.
Do you remain in contact with some of the guys @Ubisoft even now? :D
Not really. Talked with a guy that was the architect on my team about a month ago. We still need to grab a few beers together
04:21
People need to teach more of the unbreakable connection of C++ with the standard library.
@DomagojPandža Ha, at Ubi they don't use standard containers. Fucks up the cache too much.
You develop safer, but more suited, things for low level stuff. I do it too.
Especially when you guys take a look too much at the renderer of Kyro, that will be some hardcore shit.
Renderers require high performance. I don't care how much dark voodoo you put in there.
Just a lot of SIMD, shuffling, some custom memory management, fighting alignment issues, aligning data in a way they hit the cache lines and trying to avoid unnecessary loadhitstores. And, oh yeah, math. Also, it is fun to linearize partitioning trees.
But I have a hard on for pretty code, so I try to sexify it. Trailing return types help a lot with overall sex appeal consistency.
And comments, just for remaining sane.
When you've got that down, all that remains is the math and the physics. :Đ
Yeah, for physics, do we plug an engine or do we roll our own?
04:33
Optics, light propagation and all that fine stuff is mine, internally. But I don't know whether we even need a more developed physical engine. We can simply emulate some of the cute details we want, like inertia, a small falloff factor etc.
Yeah, it's all pretty simple stuff.
The most important thing is that I manage to generate a sexy interface to the low-level depths others can reference. Nobody needs to know what goes on "at the end of the tunnel", as long as they see the light.
Anyway, I gotta get some sleep.
Etienne, just did some google searching on your name to see how visible it is. Hah, now I know yer truly has a beard. :Đ
@DomagojPandža It's a bit longer now.
04:37
Doesn't irritate you?
I tried, but shaved today.
Nope. It stops being irritating after a little while.
Can't get to that sweetspot. Anyways, sweet dreams :D
bb
man
today I've specified almost nothing
and I feel increasingly uncomfortable about the reliability about my proposed systems for Wide
When you're feeling out of it, it happens. Channel your energy towards Kyrostat.
04:43
I'd like to.. but most of my skillset requires other tasks to be done before it can proceed
our communication on that has really slipped

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