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00:00
I don't think so.
SPARC, I think is BE
not sure about Itanium
Why would ARM be embedded?
MC68000 was BE
Ell
Ell
I don't know maybe I have my definition of embedded incorrect
Also, network order is by default BE with most things
00:01
Embedded != mobile
@RMartinhoFernandes i was about to say what eli did
@CheersandhthAlf I get it. Now where do I collect my medal?
you won eternal respect. i didn't get the fish. at first.
@CheersandhthAlf :)
it didn't look like a fish
00:02
What difference does it make that it is running on a phone or a tablet? Both phones and tablets are general purpose computers these days. ARM is not embedded. QED.
@CheersandhthAlf Needs a little translation + rotation (actually, mirroring)
yes, but for the fish you also need overlap
@ScottW It took me about 25s to see what on earth it was on about
Ell
Ell
Is atmel embedded? Arduino? Beatle board? Raspberry pi? What counts as embedded?
Cya - sleep
00:03
@eli
@Ell A computer with specific purposes (embedded) in another system.
If it's general-purpose, it's not embedded.
ARM is definitely not embedded
Dunno about the others. A RasPi is a general-purpose computer.
Size is not of relevancy here.
Ell
Ell
Oh okay. Hmm
00:06
Factory robot arm controller => embedded.
Electronic Control Unit in a car => embedded
Basically, any computer that exists to do only one task.
@RMartinhoFernandes acutally those arent embedded, robotic arms , just FYI, the car control unit is embedded.
oh happy day! i found out how to turn off "What's hot on Google+"! I think!
Disable Google+ entirely? Works for me :P
the bastards didn't make that easy
@ScottW some do
@johnathon Hmm, I guess the robot arms could be controlled by some central machine. But it must have some dumb controller in it.
00:10
@RMartinhoFernandes most of them use a general purpose cpu
@RMartinhoFernandes and have their own OS, they have capabilities to run different programs on the fly
@RMartinhoFernandes the correct term is CNC (computer numerically controlled)
Ok, the car ECUs are a better example.
Yuppers;)
Ell
Ell
Can you control the output pins on a PCI slot in windows ? Would ioctl be used for that or is it not possible?
00:13
@RMartinhoFernandes want to know whats really wack, most car ECU's are acutally using general purpose CPU's as well, for uber instance, the ford ECC 5 unit used a intel 486
@Ell there's specific hardware cards made just to do that, for digital and analog I/O from a pci slot , isa slot, hell these days even from pci 2
I don't care. My head hurts and I want to sleep. That's all I care right now. FAIGHhgalekhr .
@RMartinhoFernandes i do hope you get some sleep and get to feeling better
@RMartinhoFernandes Then go to bed.
Ell
Ell
I mean, how do drivers work? Do they alter output and input pins? Or is it more abstract?
@Ell bus drivers just drive the bus. they have to be courteous and generally have a sense of humor.
00:19
@Ell I expect that the instructions on the CPU are more like, memcpy
Ell
Ell
But the PCI bus has no memory?
It is mapped.
Ell
Ell
But not all PCI devices have memory so how can it be?
dunno about XP, but under WDDM the GPU VRAM is mapped into the process's address space
Ell
Ell
Also where is the hardware doing the stuff under the hood that allows the abstraction of mapped memory? Is it the bios?
00:23
@DeadMG The hardware maps them to physical addresses too.
that I did not know
It's indirection all the way down.
@Ell I guess their control pins can be mapped to memory too. Or I/O ports.
Probably the latter.
Ell
Ell
I/o ports? what do you mean?
@DeadMG If you're writing a kernel, it's annoying, because you have to ask for a map of physical memory to know what you can use and what you can't. And they don't map it nicely, it's always spread out in the middle.
@Ell The things you use with x86's IN and OUT instructions. I think that's the correct term, but I may be confusing it.
Ell
Ell
I really don't know anything about low level stuff. Does the CPU architecture do the PCI stuff and memory stuff for you? What is your responsibility?
00:29
x86 has IN and OUT instructions?
Ell
Ell
I understand you have to write drivers, but the arch let's you communicate with the pci
Memory-mapped I/O and port I/O (also called isolated I/O or port-mapped I/O abbreviated PMIO) are two complementary methods of performing input/output between the CPU and peripheral devices in a computer. An alternative approach, not discussed here, is using dedicated I/O processors — commonly known as channels on mainframe computers — that execute their own instructions. Memory-mapped I/O (not to be confused with memory-mapped file I/O) uses the same address bus to address both memory and I/O devices ‒ the memory and registers of the I/O devices are mapped to (associated w...
11
Q: What are IN & OUT instructions in x86 used for?

clawsI've encoutered these to instructions IN & OUT while reading "Understanding Linux Kernel" book. I've looked up reference manual. 5.1.9 I/O Instructions These instructions move data between the processor’s I/O ports and a register or memory. IN Read from a port OUT Write t...

Hey guys, I'm looking for something to keep my hands occupied while watching video tutorials
A lot of the material is overlap and I get bored just sitting there watching it, so I often end up picking things up and fiddling with them. Staples, paperclips, pocket knives, etc. Any ideas?
00:34
1. Purchase a second screen.
2. Upon that second screen place the development environment of your choice.
3. Play around with code whilst somewhat paying attention to tutorial.
Ell
Ell
I often play with knives
Or lighters
Or get one of those chinese finger traps
I wonder what Tony would suggest.
yeah, I "wonder".
Ok, I'm really going to sleep now. Headache is waning. Good night.
fuck
why did I eat that 8th cookie
hell, why did I buy this 8th cookie
Ell
Ell
00:47
I have a problem with buying food
The other day I bought 12 doughnuts for £2 and ate 6 of them within an hour
Is it lack of money? That's the most common problem with buying food
Ell
Ell
For me its the amount :L
 
3 hours later…
03:44
Hey-- for the lounge wiki maintainers-- Bartosz's "C+11 Concurrency Series" video link is broken. I'm not sure if it's available anywhere else. Anyways, just a head's up :)
 
1 hour later…
05:04
17
Q: What's "wrong" with C++ wchar_t and wstrings? What are some alternatives to wide characters?

Ken LiI have seen a lot of people in the C++ community(particularly ##c++ on freenode) resent the use of wstrings and wchar_t, and their use in the windows api. What is exactly "wrong" with wchar_t and wstring, and if I want to support internationalization, what are some alternatives to wide characters?

I did not expect this question to get this much attention
I wonder if character encoding is an issue that even the experienced face difficulties with
I wouldn't consider 17 votes as "a lot of attention". It's just a really good question with a good answer.
But yeah, I definitely have had unicode problems a while back.
05:22
indeed lol
rep has nothing to do with it. If you're here enough you'll see plenty of other questions that get much more attention, whether they deserve it or not.
i only started doing C++ only recently though, in a very serious manner that's not academia
Good questions like that unicode one don't need a lot of attention to get a lot of votes.
I come from a dynamic language background so encoding is more or less "taken care of" because UTF-8 strings are the default
I guess you can't do that with C++ if backwards compatibility with C is a big issue
Both C and C++ have wchar_t.
05:33
hi all
is anyone here?
I'm somewhat here
i guess that's better than not..lol
well i'm a total newb to C++ so you probably don't want to take my advice on anything
are you familiar with .net mvc?
no but I know MVC on ruby and php
05:35
oh
i do .net mvc
I heard .net mvc is similar to ruby on rails in some ways
I'm a huge advocate for open source technology in the web so I generally don't touch .net
although if I work for a company that do .net then there's nothing much i can say other than, it's your money
i did hear a lot of good things about .net mvc though, since it's the tool used to power SE network
05:39
well anyway, i am trying to find someone who knows dot net mvc and there is never anyone in these chats so I figured I might try my luck here
user406009
Could you guys offer some advice? I have about 500mb of raw 16bit integers that need to be searchable by unix timestamp taken. The two ideas I have are to use the filesystem(file per day) or to use a database. Any suggestions?(this is for an internship).
sorry Ethan I don't know that one ) :
i'd personally go with the database just because i hate depending on OS for stuff
but depending on your situation, like, if you already have the data on a fs, then go with fs
filesystem API on POSIX(unix/linux) system is somewhat easier than winapi though
user406009
Yeah, database would probably be easiest to code.
also, if performance doesn't matter
use a dynamic language like python/ruby
user406009
05:43
Using Java :(. The language the other people in my "team" know.
Java is not a bad language to program in, although bad implementation of the GC in the past, somewhat destroyed the reputation when it comes to performance
o.O
@ScottW come-on what's with the Java hate
 
1 hour later…
07:04
hey
those extra four cookies, man
not common they are quite so bad
07:27
oh
mawning puppy :)
really sick
eh
this specificular european would be up a lot later if he wasn't very sick
@ScottW interesting gauge
07:58
15
Q: Set all bytes of int to (unsigned char)0, guaranteed to represent zero?

refp This is not a matter of recommended practise (nor undefined behavior), but about what the c++-standard actually guarantees in the matter of turning all bytes of an integer type to the value of (unsigned char)0. The Question(s) In the snippet below, is the expression used by the if-stateme...

I'm so fucking sick
@refp You already linked that repeatedly.
@DeadMG still looking for a definite answer..
@refp All you're gonna get by repeatedly linking the question is a place on people's ignore list. If I knew the answer, I'd have already posted it.
it's rather odd.. everyone seems to have strong opinions about what the standard guarantees and not, but despite this no one seem to be able to back it up
@DeadMG no comment.
you want me to answer your question, but no comment back to me? now I'm not even gonna read it
08:03
Hello.
oh hai catplusplus
what version of Lua did you put into the Kyrostat vendor library?
needs to be 5.1.4.
@DeadMG the "no comment" was about people ignoring me for posting it "repeatedly"
Okay. Why not newest?
08:04
they cut a bunch of useful features for no reason
@CatPlusPlus good morning.
also I explicitly specified it in the tech docs
@DeadMG I've linked the question three times, and I remember at what times.. I would never link the question where I knew that most active users would've already seen it
5.1.4 specifically or any 5.1.x? There's 5.1.5.
Which is 4 years newer, so that's always a good sign.
@CatPlusPlus 5.1.5 should be fine. The official docs only go up to 5.1.4, though?
ah no, I do see 5.1.5
that should be fine
08:54
what's everyone doing on this Sunday?
being sick
sucks
what do you normally do to feel better?
do you take meds or sleep or what?
I have something that can make me feel better?
well, I don''t know
I just try to ignore it best I can by watching TV
also sitting instead of lying helps somewhat
09:00
:) <---- A smiley face to make the puppy feel better
ah ok
but once I'm already sitting and distracting, I know of nothing more
09:43
Anybody ever done the 'write an operating system' exercise much-loved by computer science departments?
fortunately I escaped that one
I did it way before uni.
Well, it booted, and that's about it.
well, y'know, if I were to write an OS, it would be better than Windows or Unix by a significant margin, and I gotta leave something for other people to be good at
Also holy shit I've just been attacked by something that looked like a weird combination of bee and a fly. Or perhaps two flies.
It was me!
10:01
lol
I looked into the OS thing yesterday
concepts seem fine - but I can't read assembler
well, I have a general overview of what some of the opcodes mean
but not enough of them to be able to tell what that sort of code does
why is litb not here :(
11
Q: Why is char* standard?

UnsignedWhy do most string functions in the C/C++ stdlibs take char* pointers? The signed-ness of char is not even specified in the standard. Most modern compilers (GCC, MSVC) treat char as signed by default. Why would it ever make sense to treat strings as signed bytes? AFAIK there are no meaningful c...

this all leads me to believe std::cout << std::uint8_t(5) << "\n"; is broken by design and fixable.
@StackedCrooked Seen the latest epi yet :) ?
does anyone know how fstream deals with ASCII control characters?
I have a stream that seems to contain "control chars", which are just interpreted wrongly, I think
10:17
implementation defined, at best, I'd expect
funny thing is, when you print the data to std:cout they are printed correctly
It shouldn't deal with them at all.
and printf
@rubenvb he can't be here all the time
@CheersandhthAlf he was here about an hour ago :(
I think I just missed him :/
10:31
heh, control characters
the other day a colleague and I were discussing a C api for traffic signal controllers
I pointed out that it would probably be possible to abuse control characters in the model he'd suggested
he replied "If someone calls a controller 'bell bell bell bell' I will literally get on a plane and break their legs"
Ell
Ell
10:47
mornin' all
0
A: Why is char* standard?

Cheers and hth. - AlfJim Balter notes in a comment that The instructions on the PDP-11 dealing with bytes treated them as signed quantities, so that's how the early C compilers treated them, and unsigned didn't even exist. I strongly suspect that this is the answer to why the default character type char isn&rsq...

@rubenvb: see above
11:13
People whose license to program should be revoked, today:
0
A: C++, treating dates as numbers

programmerTo compare between the dates, you can Store dates in YYYYMMDD format. eg: 24th june, 2012 as 20120624. A integer variable would be sufficient enough to store a date and using comaprisions operators(<, >, <=, >=, ==, !=) you can easily compare between the dates. for eg:: int Date1 = ...

Have a look at Joda/Noda type libraries. Read up on Calendars. Date manipulation is never trivial. I'd only advocate hacks like these when doing ad-hoc shell scripting (run stats on logfiles and non-critical stuff like that) — sehe 52 secs ago
@KonradRudolph You deleted your comment that c++11 has all this. Does this mean I can't ask you for an example anymore :)?
@sehe I was wrong, C++11 doesn’t have date utilities, std::chrono only includes a time API
(Well, except for the ctime stuff …)
Ell
Ell
dates are horrible unreliable aren't they?
@KonradRudolph I have made that comment, in your place
@KonradRudolph That's what I feared. Ah well, at least we know what the state of affairs is
@Ell No. They are perfectly fine. Interpreting them is the flaky part
11:25
@Ell As long as we base them on the random wobbling of a body in space, yes. It’s high time we stop this medieval nonsense and use a sensible, unchanging frame of reference
@TonyTheLion TBH I think this style of comment has obvious 'entertainment value' - but, as we all love to reiterate: Stack Overflow is not Reddit. So, I'd always prefer to say why this is bad.
@sehe I disagree, we can’t even predict what time it will be ten years from now.
@KonradRudolph Sooo. Name that reference. We can't achieve it, due to relativity and perhaps even Heisenberg
(and no, that was no cheap 2012/Mayans joke)
@KonradRudolph Depending on how you define '10 years from now' we should be able to (and barring any changes to the standard definition of time?)
11:27
@sehe Oscillations in hydrogen
@sehe We aren’t, because Earth wobbles. We fundamentally can’t predict leap seconds
@KonradRudolph I thought we used oscillations in cesium for that purpose?
@Insilico whatever tickles your fancy. I used H as an example since the SI unit “second” is defined in terms of it
Ell
Ell
PlayerCount vs NumberOfPlayers?
@KonradRudolph I don't recall. Although I guess that depends on whether you follow the new SI definitions or the old one
(not a metrologist, so don't ask me)
@KonradRudolph I think leap seconds are just defined in a standard. They have been designed to 'match' (compensate) for the wobbles, but if the earth wobbles just a bit more/less there is no immediate need to adjust the standard definitions of leap seconds, IMO. It's perhaps a historical convention, but there is hardly a need
11:30
@Insilico that just gives us a stable unit of time (like a second). We still can't predict the Earth's wobble, so we still insert new leap seconds where necessary
(not to be confused with meteorologist)
@Insilico meteorolist?
@sehe No, leap seconds are inserted into … uhm, well, time … whenever necessary. But we cannot predict when the next one needs to be inserted
@jalf Oh we're talking about Earth's wobble. Okay then.
yeah
11:31
@KonradRudolph Define "whenever necessary". We could just agree that it will be never necessary, from now on. Bam. Wobbling solved
@jalf You’re still thinking of Earth as a reference here. Don’t.
@sehe Yes. Not to be confused with the correct spelling, "meteorologist".
@sehe Then you cannot communicate with satellites anymore (to a necessary degree of precision)
"Necessary" is nearly always a normative call
@Insilico :)
@KonradRudolph Why not? That's what we are using as a reference point. We want our time and dates to match the day cycle on Earth
that's kind of the point in leap seconds
11:32
@jalf I thought we used atomic clocks as the reference?
@jalf That’s the mistake though, since that causes all the dilemma we have with time
@KonradRudolph yep. But that's how we do things at the moment :)
Actually GPS satellites use Einstein's relativity theories to correct for relativistic error
@KonradRudolph Good point. Soooo, the leap seconds business is useful. Back to the drawing board:
6 mins ago, by sehe
@KonradRudolph Sooo. Name that reference. We can't achieve it, due to relativity and perhaps even Heisenberg
@jalf That’s what I said must stop.
11:32
So even just an atomic clock is not enough for GPS satellites.
@sehe No, atomic clocks appear to be precise enough. We just don’t use them as reference, only as time-keepers. That’s the problem.
Just let time drift away from the conventional day/night cycles
we don’t need to define our days in terms of sun up / sun down anymore
that is going to be obsolete once we board a space ship anyway
@KonradRudolph That's exactly what I said here:
3 mins ago, by sehe
@KonradRudolph Define "whenever necessary". We could just agree that it will be never necessary, from now on. Bam. Wobbling solved
What was your objection then?
@KonradRudolph Wasn't there an international agreement to move back all atomic clock standards one second (at the same time) some years ago?
@sehe My objection is that we can only do that once we abandon Earth’s rotation as our frame of reference. And yes, that’s what I’m advocating
@Insilico => That was a leap second. Happens all the time.
@KonradRudolph So, you were just confusing yourself when you objected 'Then you cannot communicate with satellites anymore (to a necessary degree of precision)'?
@KonradRudolph Starred for punnyness
11:36
@sehe No, how was I confusing myself? My argument was under the assumption that we don’t drop our current frame of reference, which this whole discussion was about
@KonradRudolph Wake up. We're doing this disccusion together. Don't assume anyone else must be opposing? I say we drop leap second fetish, you objected to it.
@sehe No, I’m not objecting at all
7 mins ago, by Konrad Rudolph
@sehe Then you cannot communicate with satellites anymore (to a necessary degree of precision)
^ that
I just clarified that we can’t drop leap seconds unless we drop our current frame of reference
right
I'm gonna try to sleep again
wish me luck
11:39
@DeadMG Good nite
My desk is a mess. There's breadboards and electronic components all over the place. :-( And I don't feel like writing code as of this moment.
@KonradRudolph Well, when I propose to 'drop leap second resynchs' what would be left? Just timekeeping, which is already the atomic reference. Am I missing something?
@KonradRudolph isn't that kind of obvious? The leap seconds are effectively what ties us to that frame of reference. It's like saying you can't avoid sugar unless you stop eating it.
@sehe No, not that I’m aware of. Then again, I’m not a chronologer (?) but I think that covers it
@KonradRudolph I think timekeeping falls under metrology.
@jalf Well, I wasn’t sure that it was obvious.
11:41
@KonradRudolph So, we agreed, but you misunderstood what I was saying then.
@sehe Excellent, so you're all in violent agreement.
:)
We have lots of violent agreements here, don't we? (And lots of violent disagreements too)*
Ok, slight change of topic: what do I need to / should I get with a Raspberry Pi?
*Disclaimer: May not actually refer to physical violence.
@KonradRudolph You first need the money to pay for it, although I suspect that is dead obvious :-)
Ell
Ell
11:44
can you control the io pins on a raspberry pi?
I think you need an HDMI cable to connect to a monitor. I don't know if those come with the Raspberry Pis.
@Ell Lack of I/O would certainly make it a not-very-useful device, no?
Ell
Ell
yeah, I was just wondering if you could only use usb/standard stuff - like a mini computer
anyone here have an arduino?
@Ell I have a PIC microcontroller that I just program in straight assembly or some variant of C.
Ell
Ell
I have had it for a year and a half or so and have done nothing with it
A PIC24H, to be precise.
Ell
Ell
11:46
all I have done is made a light-controlled alarm clock which hooks up to my computer and plays "morning has broken"
@Ell I'm sure you can come up with a project you'll like
@Ell That counts as something.
Ell
Ell
The thing is buying all the components :/
I have a Pi
it has GPIO I believe - whatever that is
@Ell What's the issue?
Ell
Ell
I wanted to make a robotic arm but all the servos cost money that I don't have :s
so it's just been sitting in my draw, gathering dust
11:47
@Ell You can be real cheap and jury rig everything together like me sometimes. :-)
Ell
Ell
yeah :) well I've since become more interested in programming anyway so
I made a robot out of K'NEX pieces joined with non-K'NEX parts (servos, etc.) a few years ago
Mmmh, Boost.TypeErasure is currently under review and someone produced just this today. @RMartinhoFernandes you may be interested.
It was a weird combination, but it works.
Ell
Ell
I used to be into k'NEX a lot
was the county champion young engineer :L
unfortunately my school was unwilling to take me to national level
11:50
Oh, good job :-)
Mighy Moose Free - Opinions?
Ell
Ell
to be frank I think its a shame that the school should be the thing holding me back, and not my ability. Oh well, it's too late now :P
@Ell It's never too late, IMO.
@Ell Competitions are just that. Not participating isn't holding you back. In practice it might be just as much about avoiding (a) wasting time (b) a lot of flattery
Ell
Ell
It wouldn't be, apart from I'm no longer "young" :L but I have moved on from that stuff into programming now so
yeah
11:53
That's the spirit. You just pick what you want to excel at. As many gurus will tell you, true artists don't do it for the recognition
Ell
Ell
yeah :)
Recognition is a nice side-effect, though
DUDE
Crap I keep forgetting how strong neodymium magnets are
11:58
So, your phone has died?
Ell
Ell
hard drive erased? :L
Yay. Also "Huh" what?
@Ell No, I waved one above some metal piece and it of course flew towards it
@Ell Hard drives actually have neodymium magnets in them

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