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00:45
@Ven the design docs call $/ a dynamic lexical ._. I’ve been nesting my parsing and I run into this clobbering and was wondering about that
figures there’s no other way of making $blah ~~ / my regex /; $<insides>.say work, but I tend to think that makes the method insides($/) parameter convention for actions unwarranted, I'd rather have a $match parameter and free rein of matching inside ($match.make(…) be damned)
I have no idea what #metoo movement is
but I am going to find out what poison standard is sometime this week
> The .made method by default returns an undefined value. $() is a shorthand for $($/.made // ~$/).
nvm I want that now
 
5 hours later…
user1646075
05:28
same ole' wasteland?
06:55
productive area as always, but occasional waste spotted ...
07:12
Imagine that you have an A.I. wardrobe that brings out something you have not worn for a year occasionally and nudges you to do something about it ...
07:27
meta is totally broken in certain area
like some users with upvoted answers & comments don't know the specifics behind the question or things they comment on yet still get many upvotes, it's bizarre
'in the herd and proud'
07:44
Morning
 
1 hour later…
08:58
@JerryCoffin I belong to the minority of misunderstood creepy nerds.
Life is such a struggle for me.
I mean, girls don't even like anime figurines. So unfair :(
@StackedCrooked Just not the ones interested in relationships :p
09:21
I got help from Reddit to prove the running time of a custom algorithm, it's super cool :o
nwp
nwp
Don't make me question my world view.
what about your std::world_view?
is it even an std::basic_world_view and it's too comfortable to question it? :D
Requires specializing user-defined personality_traits.
10:02
hi guys
sorry to disturb I'd need help with setting up cmake with my project
let me explain : I have a big "electronics simulator" project, with a library (in simulator/) and a GUI (in gui/)
in simulator/, there are many modules that are dependant on each other and for now gui/ is empty
how should I setup cmake ? thanks
11:01
@Morwenn this is implementation defined
11:44
@Mikhail I don't know as I haven't used it, I'm in webdev. In that you can agree on CSS selectors used for automation. I suspect you can agree on automation ids.
12:04
> there is potential for major catastrophe
12:36
@Magix make each module in simulator/ a directory
@Magix and add_library(my_module STATIC ${MODULE_SRCS}) as usual, then in parent add_subdirectory(module_dir) as neccessary. If stuff in gui/ depend on a module, add the module subdirs before the gui subdir. Then just target_link_library as appropriate.
13:08
@StackedCrooked I'e heard of this "life" thing before. Where could I download one of those?
nwp
nwp
A quick search revealed some options for half-life and second life. Close enough?
@Morwenn static_assert(std::common_type<std::basic_world_view<me>, std::basic_world_view<psycho>>::type == std::empty);
@nwp I'm not sure. I've no experience with any of these.
nwp
nwp
Pfft, comparing types with ==. If it was that easy anyone could do it. You need some std::is_same_v to keep the plebs out.
@nwp I can't do that. I am a pleb!
@JerryCoffin I'm sure there is a github repo, but the license is killer. Last I checked it was under the BSOD license
2
13:24
@Mgetz It figures that the license for a life would involve death.
@JerryCoffin Yeah... the "Be Social or Die" license is a real killer
@Mgetz ...especially for a nerd, where it's pretty much: "just die".
nwp
nwp
I guess the part "If you are social you still die" is hidden in the fine print.
Nerdy fact: I wasn't even trying for BSOD when I was thinking that up... it was just happy happenstance
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Where death is a happy happenstance [c++] [c++11] [c++14] [c++17] [c++-faq]
13:28
@JerryCoffin comparing types with ==?
argh, I'm late to the game >.>
@Morwenn Yes, I already publicly stated my pleb status...or lack of status.
I want to eat sweet potato-filled taiyaki
why did I have to leave Japan and its bakeries? :(
nwp
nwp
@JerryCoffin That room topic actually still fits with the current meta.
@Morwenn Because after too long a stay, they start to wonder whether your claim to be a "tourist" isn't just a French mis-pronunciation of "terrorist".
@nwp Current? Has there ever been a time that meta wasn't death?
@JerryCoffin no chance, they mostly don't understand English v0v
13:34
@Morwenn I think they're like a lot of French people: perfectly capable of speaking English, but acting like they can't so they can get on with their lives instead of wasting all their time on ignorant tourists...
nwp
nwp
@JerryCoffin Previously I did not need to wonder if I can even participate in chat without knowing the CoC. They are so unwelcoming these days.
@JerryCoffin I mean, even at the tourist information point of Morioka they didn't speak English >.>
@JerryCoffin tbf in 1997 when I was last in france if you could say something like "My french is horrible do you speak english so I don't butcher your language" they were much nicer because you at least tried.
they got quite annoyed if you assumed
in 1997 I was 6yo and didn't speak English >.>
@Mgetz I did pretty much the same thing--enough to apologize for my ignorance and stupidity, but not much more. Was almost always adequate though.
13:39
@Morwenn I was 10 and spoke no french, fortunately my mother and sister did
Okay, you can quit reminding me of how ancient I am for a while!
stop being ancient
is this a bad time to say that I was 7yo in 1997?
@Morwenn ...and now we're back to that death thing!
@iPherian Probably. But according to meta, we're bound to forgive you (assuming you're a member of a minority that's recognized and protected under US law--otherwise, FU, just like all the rest of the white, male patriarchal hegemony!).
:-), just in case that wasn't obvious! :-)
14:08
and stricter chat rules are enforced, so if you mysteriously disappeared, we understand
14:20
TIL, tampon is a therapeutic good according to Australia Department of Health ...
nwp
nwp
I guess it kinda works. For 3-ish weeks or so.
There is a natural drug that works for 9-ish months, but it has some side-effects.
14:35
I found a micro-modification to apply to one of my libraries /o/
It's annoying when I'm too lazy for the big features and there are no smallest things left :(
Prescription medicine	 New chemical entity: Application fee $46,900	Evaluation fee: $188,200
holy ... applying 4 new drugs and it will cost you nearly a million
that's why brand-name drugs are so expensive
they have to recoup the costs somehow
I didn't the whole drama of that pharma bro clown show, but I was told by someone who is very experienced in the field that what pharma bro did was considered ... normal???
pharma bro?
14:48
@ratchetfreak the guy who people hate just by looking at him link
@TelKitty reading the career bit it sounds like he was someone making money doing stock trading while in a position to manipulate the market
He's in jail now.
Juror no. 59: Your Honor, totally he is guilty and in no way can I let him slide out of anything because —

The Court: Okay. Is that your attitude toward anyone charged with a crime who has not been proven guilty?

Juror no. 59: It’s my attitude toward his entire demeanor, what he has done to people.

The Court: All right. We are going to excuse you, sir.

Juror no. 59: And he disrespected the Wu-Tang Clan.
But the reason why it's done is partially because large pharmaceutical companies also invest in startups and other drug development, and only a small percentage is able to succeed, the price of successful drugs need to be high enough to cover the failures.
but a 56 fold increase in a (what I presume to be) widespread/popular drug is beyond reckless
nwp
nwp
15:03
Capitalism ho!
Someone should make a remake of Recettear.
It certainly is an unbalanced way to raise revenue. If a company needs money, just raise all prices by a small amount mb.
though in this case it's a bit odd no-one else jumped into the gap to bring out a generic variant (at close to the original price). The patent was expired by that point.
unless it's not that simple to start creating that drug from scratch?
@TelKitty Well, from their perspective, the math is typically pretty simple. They spent, say, $300 million to develop the drug, and another $500 million to get it approved. Their patent will expire in 8 years, so they have to make roughly $100 million/year over those 8 years just to get back to breaking even. Then the copycats generic manufacturers jump in, so if they haven't made their money back already, they probably never will.
That doesn't even come close to justifying what Shkreli did, but a lot of the problem here isn't the drug manufacturers--it's the approval process they're forced to go through.
@JerryCoffin there is a bit of a markup that even the generic manufacturers will do to cover the startup cost and plain business
I'm in the process of transforming super-long C code in just a few numpy lines
While the result is cool I spend most of my time trying to understand what the C code is doing and reading numpy documentation
15:18
though it's a good thing that the process exists to make sure pharma does poison us
nwp
nwp
@Morwenn Is the numpy implementation to run those lines longer than the C code?
@nwp that doesn't really matter as long as the time to run it is shorter
@nwp that's not something I care about :p
It's probably more robust that the manual implementation I'm translating anyway v0v
nwp
nwp
something something JS frameworks
@ratchetfreak Of course they have to make a profit too. But their costs are dramatically lower, and they din't have to spend it over such a long period of time. For the original developer, we're basically paying (among other things) the interest on what amounts to a 10 or 15 year loan for quite a bit of the money to develop the drug. By the time the generic manufacturers get involved, almost all of it can be "fast tracked", so they spend less money and get paid back much sooner.
15:33
@JerryCoffin actually this is usually not the case, generally speaking the manufacturer has a ton of ways to bar generic versions from the market and force people to buy the name branded.
@Mgetz like pressuring doctors to subscribe the drug by brandname only and pressuring the apothecaries to supply brandname only
@ratchetfreak or adding various features to manage delivery that then become "mandatory" but are themselves on patent
 
1 hour later…
16:54
 
3 hours later…
20:15
@Mgetz Yeah, so in principle you can write scripts that press all the buttons. And with some difficulty input data into tables/models. I can't find anybody that actually does this. Specifically for Qt.
@JerryCoffin Poor Shkreli. He got in trouble for something else. I'm sure you heard the story. He took investor money, to do something. Lost their money. Said fuck it, I know pharma better. Made it back doing pharma. Technically that's security fraud because he invested the money in something else. But everybody came out on top.
@Borgleader: Title of the day.
-4
Q: fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

Calvin JacksonThe two programs must go together and are connected by a method. It should display a table of asterisks based off the height and width entered. I want to add a feature that allows the user if they want to enter his/her own character which is the string S and display a table of the character that ...

@Mysticial Is this some kind of test? The user name is obviously fake: stackoverflow.com/users/9487811/calvin-jackson
Maybe somebody is writing a research paper called, how much bullshit can I get away with on SO and randomizing user profiles?
20:49
@Mikhail If they are, the timing of it is perfect - with the shitstorm on meta right now.
@Mysticial Is there something else going on beside the blogpost?
@JerryCoffin Why is the approval process a problem?
@wilx No. Just endless fallout from that blogpost.
21:04
@Mysticial The history reveals a lot.
-2
A: Can we implement temporary automatic comment ban on 'x' number of validated rude comment flags?

wilxThis is a stupid idea. Instead, let people moderate what they want to see themselves. Just add silent mute/block button so that people can mute/block anyone they want only for themselves. Otherwise you are enabling mobs.

Well, somebody does not like it. :D
21:24
@Puppy Not really sure about all the motivations involved. But consider one case from years ago now. Somebody realized that if you stretched a sheet of flexible/stretchy plastic over the skin, it was easier for women to feel a lump during a breast self examination. But they had to get US FDA approval before they could sell them. Now keep in mind: this is a fairly ordinary sheet of plastic, already available and used for other purposes.
that does not make it safe for use for this purpose
They still spent something like 8 years running tests that the US FDA demanded. Eventually, after they'd spent an exorbitant amount of money (seems like a few hundred million) they just gave up. There simply seemed to be no end to the tests the FDA was going to demand.
8 years seems a tad excessive
but I vaguely recall# that breast lumps are a really tricky one as over-treatment can be both expensive and have many harmful side effects
they're still arguing about how often to offer mammograms here, because not finding things can be better on average
@Puppy This is only for self examination though; just the first step in screening. If she finds something, she goes to the doctor, just like she would now. Assuming the further screening is competently done, it shouldn't result in any treatment they wouldn't do now, just in catching things they'd want to treat now, but might miss for a longer time.
@JerryCoffin Yes, but much of the treatment they would do now isn't necessarily actually beneficial on the whole.
you're spamming up the system with a bunch of lumps, most of which don't matter, but the tests are inconclusive so they have to treat anyway
21:32
@Puppy That's an entirely separate question though.
it's a completely related question when you're going to vastly increase the number of people seeking treatment
every extra person you send for treatment is going to cost money and consume resources that could be used for people with more definitive results, and potentially receive unnecessary treatments with long-term negative effects
@Puppy I suppose it's related in about the same way as we could reduce emergency room usage by building cars so they nearly always blew up and killed everybody involved in any traffic accident. Yes, I suppose it would reduce emergency room usage, but it's still nearly the worst possible "solution" to the problem.
that's an incredibly simplistic way of looking at it
You seem to be advocating pretty much the same thing: since we're not sure of exactly the best way to treat every possible case of breast cancer, just ignore it all.
no
21:37
@Puppy Based on what you've said so far, it's an incredibly accurate analogy.
what I'm saying is that statistical studies show that it's not a matter of exactly, it's a matter of, it's so imprecise that in many cases, there is no benefit on the whole at all, and it even can have negative effects.
and if you're just going to send more and more women for these procedures then you are not necessarily doing them any favours at all.
for every woman who actually has cancer that would have died otherwise, you could end up performing ten unnecessary mastectomies, for instance
or more.
@Puppy You seem to be reinforcing exactly what I said above. We aren't sure of exactly what to do afterwards, so just ignore it.
you're equating "not exactly" with "we have such a bad idea we often do more damage than good in these cases"
and I say that yes, if medical intervention on the whole does not produce any better outcomes than not intervening, ignoring it is exactly what we should do.
we have better places to spend money where we could intervene that will produce better outcomes
@Puppy At least to me, the situation seems to be pretty simple: collecting more and better data can improve things. Yes, it may well be that doctors are too quick to do surgery that's not justified by the data. That doesn't mean we should quit collecting the data. It means we should educate doctors better about what the data means, and (if possible) work even harder at doing a better job of collecting the data so they can make better decisions.
@JerryCoffin It's not a matter of data collection, it's a matter of not having accurate enough follow-up tests.
and people will not sit around on "Maybe you have breast cancer", they are going to demand action.
21:44
@Puppy Okay. Maybe you, right now, have breast cancer (I dare you to try to prove you don't). Are you heading to the doctor to get checked right now? Demanding action?
no, but I didn't find something that, in my mind, says that maybe I do
The fact is, enforced ignorance is not going to make the situation better.
I disagree
it frees up doctors from making mostly unnecessary checks, allowing them to spend their time on people who need them more
and frees many people from unnecessary stress and harmful effects through unnecessary treatments
@Puppy Wow! Well, you feel free to continue living under your rock, but I'll continue to believe you're taking an utterly indefensible position.
I don't see how it's indefensible to think that we should allocate resources where they will produce any beneficial outcome, let alone the most beneficial outcome
21:50
so what's next, triage?
sounds exactly like triage to me
yep, pretty close
@Puppy Reread what you actually disagreed with. Not allocation of resources, but "enforced ignorance".
@JerryCoffin There's nothing ignorant about it- we already know the outcome, since we did about a billion studies of the outcomes.
@Puppy Yes there is. You're advocating that we stop collecting the data because we aren't currently quite sure of how to use it. I'm saying even if we're not currently sure of how to use it, there's at least some chance that eventually we can learn better ways to use it. But without collecting the data, there's basically no chance that can happen.
21:56
you're assuming that this data is in somehow limited supply
we already have more than we could ever hope to need
I mean
what exactly are you advocating for?
@Puppy Puppy: "I can see the earth is flat. That's more than we could ever hope to need to know about the shape of the earth!"
I find a lump in my breast, so I go to my doctor, and he doesn't know (based on existing tests) if I have cancer or not, so he's just gonna leave it?
@JerryCoffin If I'm in the 15th Century, then, well, yes. I could put my research efforts into the printing press, scientific methodology, or other things that would be much more useful.
@Puppy If the evidence doesn't justify treatment, maybe so. But at least (for example) some effort can be put into tracking it, so if it grows to the point that it's worth treating, the treatment can be started promptly.
so you've got an extremely messy human element, not to mention all the resources you invested in tests
@Puppy So basically what you're saying is that when you said "ever hope to need", what you really meant was "than we need at this particular instant in time."
22:03
then even more resources invested in tracking it
when we know in advance that it will almost always come to nothing or worse.
@JerryCoffin Than is realistically affordable considering all the costs involved and the low (at best) benefits
@JerryCoffin The other problem is that you don't always know when it is worth treating.
if you had a test that could tell you reliably if it was worth treating, the problem probably wouldn't exist
@Puppy ...and in your world of enforced ignorance, we're somehow going to get from our current level of knowledge to one where we'd be able to accomplish something useful, by refusing to learn anything, or even collect data from which anybody could even hope to learn. I'll repeat: completely indefensible.
the things we need to learn about are cellular biology, not random lump checks
@Puppy ...and of course, such a test is just going to spring into being on its own without anybody collecting relevant data.
@Puppy There are a lot more basic things you need to learn.
@JerryCoffin There are more than enough known breast cancer cases to generate the data there, and even if there weren't, generating more unknown breast cancer cases and then treating for them isn't really going to help.
and you're gonna hurt or kill a whole bunch of women in the process.
@Puppy You can pronounce that the current data is adequate when (and pretty much only when) you've used it to successfully stamp out the disease in question. Until then, the very most you can possibly claim is that you hope the current data is adequate to the task. I find it stunning that somebody could possible believe otherwise.
@JerryCoffin Since gathering more data is extremely trivial, I'm not overly concerned about what happens if it turns out we need more.
@Puppy How on earth do you believe that stretching a piece of plastic on her skin, and feeling her breast is going to hurt of kill somebody? Remember? We're talking about a sheet of plastic.
@JerryCoffin Because if you then go to your doctor saying "Help, I have a lump", then even if he is sufficiently educated and generally strong enough to tell you that the current test isn't definitive enough for the results to be worth acting on, you still occupied his time and attention that could have been used elsewhere.
and in the worse case, he does the test, he says "It's cancer", he cuts off your breast, there's a complication and you die in surgery, turns out it was a false positive, whoops.
I mean, actual death is not that common, but side effects from drug-based treatments are a lot more common, I'm pretty sure
then more drugs and more doctor visits and more fun.
your proposed suggestion only doesn't have downsides if you have an arbitrarily large number of doctors who don't have anything better to do and who all know exactly when to apply the test (never get it wrong)
it's a lot more efficient to cut out the middle man and not send them to the doctor in the first place
then you don't have to train them, don't have to deal with those doctors who disagree with the statistics, free them up for work on other tasks, etc.
@Puppy Such reasoning is a bit simplistic, not?
@StackedCrooked No, that actually did happen in some cases.
in fact, the whole brunt of the argument being made was that although you saved a few lives with more aggressive screening, the worse case of some negative outcmoe (usually unnecessary drug treatments with side effects) are a lot more common, according to some folks who went out and measured
22:22
@Puppy "Smallpox will never be curable anyway. We might as well just let them die. We've had millions of cases, so we already know more than we could conceivably have any use for."
"Black Plague will never be curable anyway. We might as well just cut out the middle man and let them die. We've had millions of cases, so we already know more than we could conceivably have any use for."
@Puppy Ok. I'm not an expert on the topic. I just think that there seems to be a lack of nuance in how you approach the subject.
@StackedCrooked What nuance are you considering?
@JerryCoffin Who said anything about letting people die? Remember that the thrust of the argument is that when measured, you actually do more harm than good through treatment in total.
besides, neither of those diseases were treated by studying millions of cases... smallpox was averted because we got lucky some dude noticed that weirdness about the cows and we discovered antibiotics thanks to that dude screwing up and messing up his bacterial samples
we'd have more money to pay for more of those guys in my system.
I learned both of their names at school but I can only remember one
@Puppy Actually, they were treated by studying lots of cases. The "cows" thing was from noting that when you looked at a lot of people, those who worked directly with cows (and got cowpox, a less serious disease) were generally immune to smallpox. But no, without collecting data on a lot of people, that pattern would never have been noted.
they did not study every person who had smallpox or might develop it in future
far from it
he did a small study near London
all those folks catching smallpox in Beijing did not participate
22:36
26
Q: A New (2018) Update To Our Terms Of Service Is Coming

Tim PostBut not just because it's 2018, although that's a fine reason to do a great number of things. We're changing our Terms Of Service (ToS) shortly to address two things: Stack Overflow For Teams is launching soon, and we need to include stuff that talks about us expecting people to pay for it, an...

^^ The thing about the arbitration clause is very concerning.
Does SE really get sued that much?
it's very popular
Maybe from all the disgruntled users who had their questions closed?
@Puppy ...and so?
and so despite not having access to literally every single bit of data that he could possibly have gathered, and in fact, only performing a study on a small part of it, he was still quite effective.
@Puppy And so you're of the opinion that we're better off collecting less data about anything? You're still not making even the slightest hint of sense.
22:43
no
fundamentally, I'm saying that more data is not an unqualified good, there are ways in which it can make life a lot worse, and when collecting it, it's worth thinking about how much and of what you need, and if it's not actually going to benefit anybody but in fact could lead to some very unpleasant outcomes, you should probably think twice.
especially if studies are actually done that suggest that collecting it in fact does lead to lots of negative real-world outcomes.
@Puppy I'd advise that you change your moniker from puppy to ostrich, but apparently the stuff about them burying their head in the sand is an urban legend.
@Ven can't we whatever a reduction? :( e.g. long.chain.of.things.map([~] *)

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