« first day (2708 days earlier)      last day (2466 days later) » 

 
2 hours later…
02:49
Easy to read, very instructive. Another amazing answer. Thanks! — Captain Giraffe 3 hours ago
Cheers, @CaptainGiraffe
Mischief of the night:
I converted my comment replies into an answer: stackoverflow.com/a/49312362/85371sehe 7 mins ago
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: mischief managed [c++] [c++11] [c++14] [c++17] [c++-faq] [cyber]
 
3 hours later…
06:09
Weapons found today in #pemburyweaponsweep
This is incredible.
 
2 hours later…
08:32
Morning :)
@Morwenn Hi there.
What's up?
09:31
Hi
09:54
Noobs won't understand the sticky
10:12
When you're looking for a Python3/PyQt5 library and there's only a Python2/PyQt4 one :/
Did you get fucked over by multiprocessing yet?
No, I haven't properly started yet
Worst case I make everything fast enough to make running tasks in parallel useless x)
(ok, one of them is supposed to take up to several hours)
10:28
Trick is to launch a service that check if progress is made on your python script, and automatically restarts it when multiprocessing decides to fuck you over.
I'm not sure how to handle multiprocessing + UI: if it forks the program, won't it launch another UI? x)
Shouldn't
It would be quite inconvenient :p
Would be nice if we had something like __builtin_assumption similar to __builtin_unreachable, to hint, for example, that an size_t variable will never overflow when being incremented in a for loop
You mean [[assert axiom: i > 0]]? :p
I think that it's one of the use cases of axiom in the contract proposal
> An axiom assertion-level is expected to be used for those preconditions, postconditions and assertions that are formal comments and are not evaluated at run-time.
Totally sounds like optimizer hints
10:46
How do I close a simple syntax question on the C++ tag? Is there some master duplicate for simple syntax questions?
there is a close reason for that, though that still needs 5 votes to close
I mean, if somebody asks "what does == do ?"
nwp
nwp
You are doing it wrong. You are supposed to answer the question and get some upvotes before someone closes it.
I think JS has a master question they link to when somebody asks what is "1"+"1" in JS
@nwp or downvote them because
11:03
Even better: not only the lib I wanted to use was PyQt4 instead of PyQt5 but there were even remnants of gtk in the code
I'm down to 0 hard error signaled by PyCharm, which is a start
 
2 hours later…
Most of your messages are about questions being moved nowdays ^^'
I dunno what people talk about here tbh
anything except C++
To be honest we don't even talk much anymore :(
wait youre not a bot?
nwp
nwp
13:19
A Python bot, so it's a bit weird sometimes.
nooooo, I'm being objectified >.>
much trigger
nwp
nwp
More like automated.
A sane variant converting constructor is forwarded to LWG, targeting C++20
@Morwenn can we then anthropomorphize you just to make the cycle complete?
nwp
nwp
Someone make a pun with "trigger-happy" please.
13:22
@Mgetz what would you do with an anthropomorphized version of me? :/
@Morwenn no idea, I was just making a joke about objectification
unreflexpr(Morwenn);
I guess the idea was that if you objectify and anthropomorphize someone is it kinda like google translate? Or do you end up with the Major from GITS
That's actually how I stopped being a man x)
nwp
nwp
Hey, what you are doing takes some serious balls. Most men don't have that.
13:26
:hum:
Turn men into women: as far as I know that's how we've still got women in programming :D
I mean: there are more trans women than cis women in the programmer communities I'm in, and more developers than cis women in the trans communities I'm in
so it turns out developers are clownfishes, who knew :D
I'd be curious to see what the proportion of Trans devs is and how it compares to the population as a whole. E.g are we just more comfortable with the gender ambiguity? Or do trans folks just feel more comfortable as developers (kinda doubt this).
13:45
IIRC it was around 2% in the SO survey, including trans, genderqueer, non-binary, etc...
As developers, we've got no problems making some amount of money, which is essential to be independent, which is essential to start transition where the people around you are opposed to it
@Morwenn IIRC research has shown significant underreporting
I'm not saying this is the only reason, but it probably plays a role
14:01
I finally managed to make the interactive graph library work :D
std::type_identity heading for C++20
Heterogeneous lookup for unordered containers heading for C++20 too
(of course both of those still have to pass through LWG and still could fail a plenary vote)
I feel left behind with c++ standards, I literally have a meeting today to discuss the feasability of moving to shared_ptr
Easy: when you use std::auto_ptr or manually allocate dynamic memory that you deallocate at the end of the function anyway, use std::unique_ptr :D
The rest is trickier but I'd wager that the CppCore Guidelines cover the smart pointers quite well
I think if I use the auto keyword in submitted code at least 2 people will have a heart attack
It's ok, we don't have a heap anyway
14:14
@crasic you don't new or malloc?
then you have no need for shared_ptr
well, you could use pools together with std::allocate_shared, but this only depends on how much memory you have whether it will be useful to you or not
(I'd say it most likely won't be)
I would like to use heap, for some things
@crasic make them type out the types for various iterators themselves
or various proxy types
14:36
Just learnt Ret(Args......) is valid syntax
Extending chrono to Calendars and Time Zones might be including in the C++20 draft on Saturday :o
are they going to include Extending sanity to the C++ Standard?
why would they do? it wouldn't be C++ anymore :o
They're planning to say "fuck you" to some implicit C conversions though
@Mgetz iterator? Do you mean, for loop? :P
But in seriousness, I'm unconvinced by std::thread
which is the only real addition in the last several years I was excited about
If we can have a c++ mechanism for dealing with int (void * buf) system calls, I would be soooo happy
14:52
@crasic no I mean when you have to do partial ranges stuff and need to say hold on to the end iterator more than once
@crasic thread is a heavyweight construct, do you use threads explictly?
@Mgetz Only test programs with std::thread, but pthread, yes
@Mgetz I was making a joke about the sad state of c++ in our shop.
@crasic so std::thread should be able to do everything pthreads can do but with less pain
@Mgetz doubtful :P
And when it can't you can still get a handle to the underlying pthread
@crasic you should be a lot more excited about generic lambdas
14:55
especially when that pthread is a wrapper for a xenomai thread with custom extension
You should be excited about variadic templates :o
nwp
nwp
@Mgetz Until someone asks what the equivalent of pthread_attr_setstack is.
@Morwenn I'm getting the feeling they are a "NO TEMPLATES EVAR" shop
Why use C++ then :/
@nwp native_handle
14:57
@Morwenn C with Classes!
@Mgetz What can I do, I'm just the EE
@sehe destructor issues, you can't
you mean Java with pointers?
nwp
nwp
@sehe Doesn't help. You have to specify the stack size before starting the thread and std::thread doesn't let you do that at all. There isn't even an adopt feature.
@crasic just convince them to use rust then
@nwp Maybe in C++23
14:58
@Mgetz TBF its not that bad, at least we are trying, even today c++ is rare for commercial embedded products
(I mean, there was a paper and there was def some interest in it, but I don't remember having seen it this meeting)
@Morwenn Java + Pointer = Jointer.
@crasic they went to mars with C++11
The truth is that Java already uses pointers to objects everywhere .___.
@Mgetz Really? I didn't remember the modern part :o
But now that you mention it I seem to recall a CppCon talk
(or at least the slides)
@Mgetz commercial
15:00
the only reason C++ is "Rare" is because the people doing embedded hate anything remotely high level
@crasic developed by a major aerospace company
@Mgetz Yes, this is true
and sold to JPL/NASA
@Morwenn I'm tempted to demand a safe space where we will be protected from this dangerous "pointer" hate speech.
There is also the sticking factor that most common frameworks needs to be hacked around in the embedded space
@JerryCoffin stop pointing at me then!
@crasic eh... write a wrapper once
15:01
@Mgetz Nah. C++ is rare because really good meat is best served rare (to possibly medium rare).
5
let the compiler do most of the heavy lifting
@Mgetz Yes, if you have resources
To your point
If they don't fuck up the new freestanding proposal, then maybe they will provide a minimal framework for embedded
@crasic then you're wasting time repeating yourself and slowing yourself down with bugs
That is my current push, c++ framework in c++11
15:02
sometimes you have to slowdown to speed up
Java, on the other hand, is a medium. It's not rare, and it's certainly not well done.
I like my pointers raw
@Morwenn Next you'll be saying oysters can be eaten raw too...
They can, but please don't ever make me eat oysters
@Mgetz Trust me, I sit in meetings and mentally tabulate the meeting cost and equivalent time just fixing from beginning
15:04
@crasic ah a "Wagilefall" shop
@Morwenn This is interesting
can c++ handle a heterogenous cpu architecture?
@crasic when is the last time you actually did a sprint retrospective that actually changed anything?
@Mgetz I locked myself in a room for 3 months and wrote a protocol stack from scratch that passed conformance
does that count?
@crasic They're working on standard solutions, so it'll probably be half-baked by 2050 before they drop it to add quantum computing primitives in the language
15:07
@crasic no
@Mgetz At least I got a trip to europe out of it
@crasic based on the fact you don't even seem to have retrospectives... I'd be very concerned about your team. You're probably not actually fixing any of your problems
@Mgetz Tell me about it
But!
lucky for me
On paper I'm the EE
I can't give them a platform and tell them how to code it, simply won't do it
As in Java EE? :D
15:11
@crasic well aren't you a unicorn, an electrical engineer in the US working in embedded
I didn't think that existed anymore
@Mgetz I can;t tell if this is ironic?
@crasic it's not, it's a commentary on the fact that most of these jobs are in TW
@Mgetz Oh interesting, did not know that
I don't know if embedded is the right term, industrial "smart" tools, not like cell phones and toasters with linux and shit
@crasic most businesses claim it's because you can't get good Electical and computer engineers in the US. I call BS because Intel and AMD both do it (they are required by law if they want to sell to the US Gov) but realistically it's about cost. That said the number of ECEs in the US has dropped dramatically and the number of engineers familiar with the processes is dropping.
Well, I wouldn't call myself good....
I do enjoy the process and mfg aspect
production issues are just a different scale
they don't tell you that a stupid design flaw can mean a chinese lady hand-soldering the same part all day 10/hrs a day, but that if you just moved it 1/4" to the left the automatic machine can do it for her
nwp
nwp
15:22
And then you freed up the lady hand for more interesting jobs.
And she may become an electrical engineer herself
@nwp har har, as our factory person said taking us to (legit) massages for our visit, "No hanky panky here!"
@Morwenn Basically, I'd rather she run the tests and use thinking to debug failures
And also, TBF, its not 10hrs, for foreign owned companies the system is pretty strict
8 Hrs, 4 HRs max overtime
nwp
nwp
12 hour days are pretty harsh already.
Yes it is
It's easier to go 3 shifts anyway, trying to make up with 2 shifts and overtime is a hassle
@crasic you'd think the CAD/CAM tools would have this in them, with a selector for various process technologies and estimated production costs, given that it makes a huge difference
15:36
@crasic ah yeah, but sadly, it's pennies in the difference :P
[[likely]] and [[unlikely]] ready for plenary vote on Saturday
15:52
@Mgetz Maybe the very high end tools, but really the industry hasn't even agreed (arguably there is odb++) on a standard to share CAD data between CAM and production tools. (Gerber is not CAD data). Plus everyone is paranoid about IP leaking
@crasic lol, they are probably costing themselves billions by not standardizing
If I was in this business I'd make that a priority
I'd want my files to be usable by EVERY CAM
@thecoshman This is true, and maybe in ten years if this company is successful that will be the only metric, but at this point we have huge inefficiencies and for the time being I have time to influence the process with my ethics
@Mgetz Oh yeah, at least
then imagine the masks and production assets for SoC and ASIC production
Actually, wouldn't be surprised if those were better
@Borgleader Can you make anything out of this trainwreck? meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/364715/…
@crasic well it prevents things like new tools to optimize layouts model components and simulate designs
@Mgetz Underappreciated is the business side of procurement and the obsolesence
Every once in a while, some manufacturer will decide to no longer sell that part or sell a new revision
And if its critical path, hoooo boy
This is how a tiny start up ends up owning the worlds supply of some obscure flash chip
16:04
@crasic do they not see the threat from FPGAs?
So basically, a design decision made out of convenience, but without though to obsolescence, now we pay 2x for that same part because it ran out
@Mgetz FPGA is no threat, its a prototyping platform or PIC replacement. ASIC is the threat
Rather, it is too expensive at this juncture
and field upgradeability can be a negative
@crasic yeah but they are getting cheaper rapidly, IIRC a few car manufactures are already using them for production ECUs
@Mgetz Still, dedicated flash will be cheaper than an FPGA configured as a flash module. FPGA is good for something that would need an ASIC but < 400,000-1,000,000 units
You are right though, system and network integration, field programmable or not, is a major threat to discrete device manufacturers
The obsollesence alone makes owning your own IP or assets to mfg a chip extremely attractive
@crasic true, but if I'm not using them for something as dedicated as that though. They can be "good enough"\
@Mgetz 21st century PIC
16:09
Honestly the paranoia amuses me since for the most part it's all done in TW/CN anyway and they can just duplicate and steal your mask
the only way to prove it would be to decap their chip
and if 3d tech gets cheap enough you'd have to decap every single layer
@Mgetz Exactly! Hardware is impossible to protect.
I found a blog once that did a lot of that, they found that a lot of the chips they were getting were actually fakes
Lol, aforementioned "world supply of obscure flash" was actually $100,000 of fake crap
That was fun
It wasn't even a good fake
Like I could tell just by looking
@crasic yeah IIRC they found someone faking 555 timers though... which falls into the "Why?" category
@Mgetz Often a bunch of dies fall off the back of a truck (say factory closes) or some workers steal scrap/leftover from closed production line, then they set up shop in a garage, package them in a weekend and inject into supply chain, even at $0.50 its lucrative
But $12 flash hoo boy
16:13
@crasic or more often it's off the official line, but says "Samsing" not "Samsung"
@Mgetz yeah scraps and rejects that someone swipes and repackages
Same with other counterfeit crap
Apparently my fake beats headphones were made from same material, components, and packaging, but assembled in a garage
you would not be able to tell without examining the build quality internally
For something like a 555 too, there are so many die masks out there to use, so a scrapping entrepreneur starting a fab will just do it and try to sell it off
but for something with complex process...
for example, my fakes, I could tell because it only had one internal IC instead of two dies as the per the datasheet
That and the font was wrong :\
In that case what was stolen, were pre-marked packages from the MFG, with some unknown fake put inside
@crasic not surprised
it would be interesting to do a supply chain audit of apple/samsung/etc to see how much of the counterfit crap gets into production hardware
people think it's funny the US gov has sooo many rules about where ICs in it's gear can come from and are handled
Oh they have teams where that is all they do
hmm random thought: coroutines do 99% of what an interrupt handler needs to do, I wonder if it would be possible in a cooperative embedded system to just use coroutines for system calls.
Down with the sickness
16:30
@Mgetz for system calls? not quite sure I follow what the benefit might be
@crasic less work because the compiler does it for you on a new platform
Looks like I'll be forking and modifying an LGPL library on GitHub to be able to use it as I want in a work project
@nwp foot-in-mouth :/
16:47
@Mgetz Interesting thought, but one concern is that POSIX or kind of standard system environment is an exception, even a luxury. I am writing wrappers for wrappers at this point
Including a wrapper for no-system (baremetal), with minimal functionality
@crasic well, even if it's only a small cost saving, it's a cost saving. And if you also get to be 'ethical' then yay
Basically, this ideal concept which is so nice on *NIX systems, is hard to see in different embedded context, if I want to run the same protocol code stack on both POSIX x86 as well as embedded ARM with no OS I need to spend a lot of effort in poor wrappers. System Calls are basically by definition not portable, but this is why std::thread is an attractive development in c++ standard for me
Eventually I suspect the hardware will have a POSIX api
Hey anyone has knowledge of DNS?
sounds like you should take some time and find out what the minimal stuff the platform layer needs to provide
16:53
@ratchetfreak Basically yeah, I am taking that time, but its slow
then wrap from hardware to that minimal while keeping the abstraction as thin as possible
@crasic std::thread is attractive if your runtime supports it
@Mgetz if it's in the standard it'll get there
@ratchetfreak This is like saying "do it just right and it will work out OK", all I can say is that is ongoing
@crasic don't forget to take a step back out of whatever rabbit hole you are in from time to time to look at the big picture again
@ratchetfreak thanks, good advice
17:24
@Borgleader Confusius was a philospher, in a way
 
1 hour later…
18:40
@Mgetz std::thread is attractive if you've never used good concurrent/async code
 
3 hours later…
21:20
@sehe A porcelain doll philosopher? That's amazing!
So I brought the drone on my trip, only to get it stuck on a tree and never bothered to fly it again after got it down
21:41
@JerryCoffin At least they didn't starve because they didn't use forks.
@sehe These must be Windows philosophers (or not UNIX philosophers, anyway).
bitcoins must be getting desperate, plenty of spams trying to dupe people into trading them
:)
No matter how good you think you are with chopsticks, people in china will make fun of you if you are white
They ate the flying spaghetti monster
21:48
I know some Aussie who can speak more standard Mandarin than half of the Chinese I know of ...
22:13
amazing, one can travel into space a human and return an alien
 
1 hour later…
23:20
So, i got a kinda sad/funny imperative from my dean. I can under no circumstance teach FFT as a divide and conquer algorithm in my algorithms course.
wat.
Things got loud after that.
FFT - Fast Fourier transform?
why?
23:22
how to do teach FFT as a divide and conquer algorithm?
@CaptainGiraffe Did you ask /why/
My current obligations and more importantly time allocation did not allow any extras. His precise words was
It's a splendid example. However, it's also quite "complex" (hah, punintended) in that it's quite mathematically non-trivial to see how it can be divide-and-conquer
So, maybe the naive quicksort again, then.
my goal is we all allow them to barely pass.
2
Which will lead to people implementing quicksorts with bad worst-case behaviour
@CaptainGiraffe wow. Someone is having a burnout.
23:25
@sehe My next words was I won't stand for this, bring the boss.
I see now, divide them through FFT and conquer them all by failing all of them
I'm frustrated that I'm the only wall for the students needs.
Aren't you a CS lecturer? FFT is more EE.
Tel. FFT is EE or quantum physics. It is still a very neat algo.
FFT does require a lot of background information for someone new to the area to grasp. So I can understand why. But "under no circumstance" seems a bit strong.
23:39
@Mysticial You are making a coherent argument. I'm countering with that I can positively make a useful section where they can easily experiment with their FFT implementations in the lab. Soundwaves is a foolproof input.
Nothing of the hour+ long polemic/shouting I endured can be described as coherent.
Who was emotional about things first?
I mean. Someone might really be under a lot of stress. There's reality to respecting that (and suggesting they look for help)
My opponent.
He says stuff like. "I'm sorry. I will work harder next year to make this work"
make sure your opponent doesn't read this chat
coz your goal looks a bit dubious to outsider, just saying ...
23:46
I'd like to think I'm cool unders stress.
@TelKitty Why so?
you maybe cool under stress, your students are probably not
@CaptainGiraffe That sounds like an ok thing to say, right
@TelKitty Agreed, I'm their first line of defence. I shouldn't be the last line of defense.
@CaptainGiraffe It didn't really sound like that initially i.imgur.com/O0865qZ.png
@TelKitty wut. It's pure maths
@sehe Hmm, where is my caps lock!
23:53
@sehe so tell me what exactly is FFT converting?
@sehe Please forgive me for embellishing for effect =) In my 20 years in this place it was the most idiotic/unconstructive exchange of words I've ever experienced.
@TelKitty ?! FFT is a mathematical transform. It's not converting.
There are many such transforms.
@TelKitty it is converting motions to positions.

« first day (2708 days earlier)      last day (2466 days later) »