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08:00
@KonradRudolph It was a student job :D
@StackedCrooked ah, ok then (I’m not against Philips, I’m against work)
I had to supply the people working at the production lines. Which was quite fun as I got to ride around in a little car in the warehouse.
One can do worse with student jobs :D
Woot. I just programmed a (halfbaked) simplistic 'wall hugging' maze solver in Google Blocky:
It's not fully correct, though, but I can't figure out how to create if/else blocks work
@sehe Awesome
nice
08:03
Nah. It sucks - but it has educational value. Plus, the UI is a masterpiece, as far as browser stuff goes. Yahoo Pipes could have learned a lot from this
completely javascript?
Hahah, turn left. Is there a wall in front of me? Yes. Turn right.
@DomagojPandža Yeah, there isn't a predicate to tell "Is there a wall on my left side". And you can't make subfunctions
@sehe Repeat forever?
@Nils I'd guess svg + javascript. Haven't checked though
@StackedCrooked It automatically stops on finish. It's a demo only
Also, the astute reader will find that my if(wall_ahead) while (wall_ahead) is rather redundant.
08:07
blocky would probably be nice on touch devices
There is a wall ahead. Is there a wall ahead?

Yes. Definitely a wall ahead. Check.
Reminds me of Portal 2 :Đ
@sehe What do you mean by that? Click on the +, this gives you the option to add else
@KonradRudolph I know. I said I couldn't make it work. When coming back from that screen, the else was no where to be found. Anyways, I got the idea, which was (more than) enough for me
lol
Evidence of the fact that I did restructure my loops
@sehe You need to drag the else into the if block
@KonradRudolph I did. And then it would go missing on returning to the main screen
08:13
hmm, works for me
Like I said "I couldn't make it work". And I'm fine with that
It might be the browser, it might be PEBCAK, I don't really mind; the demo was served
ah, found a bug in the Dart compiler :)
@KonradRudolph That's sick
So, they can expect a pull request soon?
@sehe I'd have thought that Opera would be fairly compliant
Dart is a bug. :$
08:16
> Microsoft's JavaScript team has stated that: "Some examples, like Dart, portend that JavaScript has fundamental flaws and to support these scenarios requires a 'clean break' from JavaScript in both syntax and runtime. We disagree with this point of view."[7]
@thecoshman Me too. So that leaves PEBCAK - meh
@sehe They are idiots then
if you cannot see the fundamental flaws in JavaScript then you are either blind or have never worked with JavaScript
Microsoft JavaScript team. I don't know what's a bigger joke, a Microsoft JavaScript team (or a long time coming JScript) or Internet Explorer.
not that this is saying a lot, since pretty much all languages have quite fundamental flaws
JavaScript is a fundamental flaw to which way too many people have become sentimentally attached to. And that's bad.
@KonradRudolph Well, people (browser 'vendors' are right in saying that it is a bad idea to go and wildly support YetAnotherClientScriptingLanguage that isn't standardized
08:19
@sehe True, but pushing away from JavaScript (and CSS, for that matter … HTML is fine as far as I’m concerned) is a fundamentally good idea
ECMAScript has served its purpose, let it live out its retirement in Microsoft's browser (fuck knows they're always late for everything) and in Adobe's Flash.
how would you push it away?!
google could do something about it
or maybe mozilla
@KonradRudolph The industry thinks "BTDT" - pushing away for the sake of pushing away is exactly what IE3-7 have been doing. Now, how "fundamentally good" was that?
Simple, first introduce a new language. Standardize it. Show how it's better. Slowly, but securely force people to switch to it. They won't like it at first, but it is for the greater good. And in a few years, deprecate Mr. ECMAScript.
That's a valid approach. But until is reaches critical mass, it's ok for browser makers to resist it
08:22
Well I haven't done web dev in quite a while.
@DomagojPandža O, ffs, just create a js2dart cross compiler :)
@sehe The difference seems to be that now, almost 20 years later, we have a better idea of where we’re going – or at least where we don’t want to go
Last time I used Rails and just hacked js together until it "worked".
@sehe Of course it is. Only, the reason they gave was batshit crazy
I wonder what would be a good solution today to develop a modern html 5 app
08:23
@KonradRudolph The only rattling stone in that road being the word "we". There is not a well defined "we" and big corporations have shown to have wildly varying interests.
So, no: I don't feel the browser industry has a clear idea of where they are going.
My point of view has always been that if you have a good thing going, people will come.
Google is going NaCl IYAM, I bet Microsoft vehemently disagrees
If you don't, start over.
@DomagojPandža Precisely my thought
@KonradRudolph But... You found a bug. Is is security vulnerability? Can it crash the browser?
Did you file it? Link?
indians y u no think by yourselves!
08:26
@Cicada just a little racist
no, just over generalized
@sehe No, a bug in the Blocky-to-Dart compiler
@Cicada They do. Some of them don't. Just like them bleak heads
Who are these indians you talk about?
I doubt that it has security implications ;)
08:26
Can I enslave them?
No f way, that is a different thing.
Just closed two questions "how do X please help"
@Cicada yeah, racist
11 mins ago, by Konrad Rudolph
ah, found a bug in the Dart compiler :)
^^ Language fail then
@thecoshman Not really no.
08:27
@Cicada let's try it this way, "French, y u no wash?" -> "Not racist, just over generalised"
@thecoshman Precisely
Neither indians nor french are a race
@Cicada ¬_¬ it's racist
@Cicada you're doing fine, be controversial enough and we might forget you don't like to hear about the dominance of porn on the interwebs
@Cicada you might want to go read up on that one
@thecoshman Only if you think so. Get off the hobby horse. We warned the girl that it might be taken as an offense, move on
08:29
Poor guy, asking a complicated question and only getting noob answers
5
Q: How to integrate a library that uses expression templates?

Martin DrozdikI would like to use the Eigen matrix library as the linear algebra engine in my program. Eigen uses expression templates to implement lazy evaluation and to simplify loops and calculations. For example: #include<Eigen/Core> int main() { int size = 40; // VectorXf is a vector of float...

@sehe Ohohohoho
Mmm. I suppose I mean "It's ok, don't sweat it"
People disagree. Meh
Cicada loves porn. She just doesn't want to discuss it. And we can all respect that.
Silly.
Not so sure, @DomagojPandža. The right kind of porn. Perhaps
Rare to find
08:31
Yeah, the one involving children and dead animals
<shocked/>
Do the animals die before, during or after?
Anyways, should be heading off to work.
@DomagojPandža Before or during. After ain't fun.
Every animal will die at some point in time afterwards.
08:34
"In the above mentioned sample reduces to a single loop of length 10 (not 40, the floats are put into regiser by chunks of 4) without creating a temporary. How cool is that?"
@Cicada I am curious though, why do not consider 'French' and 'Indian' to be races? In you eyes, what makes a race? and lets resist the urge to make jokes about the athletic kind of race
@thecoshman Take two threads
Accessing a global, non protected variable
=> race
I love to see people enjoying their introduction to SIMD extensions.
French and Indian are two nationalities, there's no such thing as race is the human species
@Cicada huh?
08:35
@DomagojPandža Save as .simd?
@thecoshman race condition
@Cicada perhaps 'race' does not translate well for you. nationalities can be considered a race, especially for the purpose of being racist
@Cicada oic
@thecoshman Um well I use that word only for different kind of dogs / cats
You mean ethnic slurs, thecoshman?
Sufficiently specialized branches of the same species
Whatever that means
@DomagojPandža you could use that phrase if you like
@Cicada which can apply equally well to the difference between French and Germans, Jews and Christians, People in my town and people in the next town over, gingers and non gingers, etc.
08:40
Write C++11 libraries, children. Come to the future, children.
@thecoshman No. Not gingers. Gingers are different.
or if you like cats, Persian and Manx tailless
I love persian cats.
Gingers are not human and that was scientifically proven
@Cicada citation needed
08:41
See for yourself
Is that porn?
Ginger porn, yes sir.
user457812
Just wanna put that root in my mouth.
@StackedCrooked it's a bit of a ginger that is not wearing any clothes, close enough to porn
Only time I've tried ginger was because I read that it relieves nausea.
08:42
@StackedCrooked do you not cook?
@StackedCrooked I was expecting that answer so much, that I was kind of surprised that you actually said it
"Why would exposing data_ break encapsulation? Encapsulation means hiding the implementation details and only exposing the interface."
Dear lord, kill it with fire...
That's racist
@Cicada oh no, it's perfectly ok to pick on stupid people, unless they have disability
never thought I'd see the day I was giving out advice on ethics
08:47
thecoshman, you do understand that Cicada is a nice girl and that she's just having a bit of harmless fun here? She doesn't mean it. :P
She is being overly ironic so you don't even understand she's making fun of you ;_;
@DomagojPandža of course I do :D
Trolling troll trolls troll trolling troll trolling trolls
Going outside the house at 11:00am
Jesus, haven't done that since highschool.
And the damn car is in the garage, I hate myself for doing that. Such a narrow space, have to get it out. ._.
@DomagojPandža did they have highschool back when Jessus would have gone?
hello
how are you guys
08:54
I'm tempted to respond "I'm not"
@ratzip don't be rude! we have ladies present
something gets you down?
hehe
Cicada is a beautiful, delicate flower soaked in kerosene and lit on fire by the cruelty of this world.
Also, cookies.
working or studying?
@DomagojPandža Now that is racist
> implying I'm a vegetal
08:57
@DomagojPandža didn't know she was emo
oh, I should have paid of debts by the end of the year
that will be a pleasing way to see the the world end
what is the difference between include iostream and include stdio?
One is C++ the other is C
If you want to use stdio from C++ include cstdio instead
Besides, iostream is much richer (completely different actually) than stdio
They're just not the same thing
09:19
thank you
09:31
May 22 at 23:35, by Etienne de Martel
user image
What's with the French and posting ginger
ROFL
blech. if you put ginger in tea, you know what it tastes like? socks. sweaty socks
@DomagojPandža No matter how hard he laboured, the listener seemed unable to distract the attention of the kids, now running wild in conversation like a runaway freight train, but with the distinct absense of a clear destination, just craving the sound of thundering wheels like a herd of buffalo
walking back to my desk, I had something I was wanting to Google, but now I cna't for the life of me think what it is
@thecoshman There you go. Pro tip: always assume your own frame of reference is the one, central true one. I cook my own dinner for the best 50% of the last 17 years, and only once did I experiment with ginger - it's a cultural thing.
@thecoshman In the same way, I suppose, that 'racism' can be applied to countries is, at best, a cultural thing. I'm inclined to call it sloppy language and historical ignorance, really. You know, racism != discrimination != xenophobia != chauvinism/nationalism != ... Words have core meanings, regardless of how often they get abused in day-to-day speech
@sbi I was about to post a tweet for you, then noticed it was you who re-tweeted it
09:40
@sbi will be absolutely thrilled to learn that you did
@sehe fair point
fair point
he will be ecstatic I hope
damn markdown
09:54
Karmnowd owns!
@KonradRudolph FWIW, it was PEBCAK indeed:
Really inefficient, but has in O(1) storage complexity :)
That drove the girl away
Anyways, there is another ladybug on the user list today
@RMartinhoFernandes on your blog, I think the blog title should link the the homepage, since it is very hard to reach the homepage now (and thereby, find other blog posts)
@sehe but that makes no sense, a header picture or proper link to the home page makes much more sense
@thecoshman Makes no sense? Oh, in your universe. You're so right
@sehe why would the title of a blog post link to the home page?
Also, a zillion methods exist, none of which I excluded. I was just stating a lack of navigability
@thecoshman Damn, you didn't even go to his blog, did you? 'Flaming dangerzon' is not the blog post title. Also I didn't actually say "blog post title". Read closely
When will this be afordable? (< 100€)
10:08
@Cicada Last time I looked that one up it was still doing 17k EUR
I found it at around 23k€
Can we expect it to halve price once a year or something ?
Can't wait to have such a baby
@Cicada Probably not in the coming decade. That is serious speed/capacity
Pretty sure manufacturing doesn't cost even 1% of the end price
@Cicada I'm pretty sure you're wrong.
@sehe having actually read what you really wrote, and not just what I read, I feel bad
10:10
If a manufacturer had the possibility of creating and selling that for, even half the price, that manufacturer would gain instant monopoly of the submarket
Considering a high end processor is infinitely more complex than a SSD and costs around 250 € (1% of something at 23k€), I hold my bet
@thecoshman Ow. That's ok :) I understand what you were saying, now. Reminds me of the (early?) blogger interface that would insist that the post title (yes, the post title) link to posted pictures if you 'blogged a picture'. That sucked
that's a lot of SSD
@Cicada That doesn't make any much market sense, so you might want to reconsider
They just have no interest in selling them at half the price
10:13
not too sure what nm SSD's are made at, but they definitely have a lot more silicone in them
@Cicada I understood that. See my edit. But really, it is also about quantities sold. CPU's are much more widely applicable than high-volume SSDs
That made me laugh.
It's not a breast implant
I'm merely and only talking about manufacturing price, sehe
All other considerations aside
@Cicada Well, if you include the 'infinite complexity' of CPU design, might as well include the research/innovation in SSD technology and controllers. That cost has to be spread across a dramatically smaller number of units sold. Is my point
@sehe erm... silicon != silicone? well I'll be
Infinite complexity, so that's like, 0 cents per complexity. That's a great freakin' deal!
10:16
@sehe manufacturing
Icecream Con != Icecream Cone :)
@Cicada Well. The product wouldn't exist without research, so I don't see exactly how you can ignore the cost
I never noticed there was two spellings, I thought it was just a pronunciation thing
@sehe Because it's irrelevant for the manufacturing
Should I get the emphasis on the word, "manufacturing"? Because I do.
@Cicada you seem to be suggesting that you "know for a fact" that if vendors would sell at half the price, the sales would increase by more than the twofold. That's one that won't fly, because they would be doing it.
10:18
to be fair, I don't CPU's have really had that many smart ideas for a long time, they are just working on how to use smaller and smaller wave lengths for creating the chips. Most of that research is being pushed by GPU's I think.
@Neil You should, else you'll be arguing in the void like sehe
@Cicada :)
@sehe No, I said I would bet
Please don't distort my words
> Pretty sure
Not "I know for a fact"
The only alternative to that logic would be that they could make the extra profit, but they're afraid to take the risk, in which case you've identified what we'd call a "Business Opportunity". Go for it?
10:19
I would also imagine that SSD's require stricter quality control. CPU's seem to be able to throttle back the speed of chips to compensate for minor defects
Should I emphasize manufacturing again?
@Cicada "Betting" is far less relevant than the cost and risk of research investments
@Cicada yes
What part of the word don't you understand
@thecoshman Huh? The point? That would simply mean they throttle back all SSD controllers by default.
10:21
Why is "betting" vs "know for a fact" relevant in an argument? You still think you know, one way or the other.
@Cicada The betting part. It is irrelevant. You can't argue about a bet. It is just that. So stop arguing :)
I bet what I want to
@Neil (that's another way of saying things)
And I bet you can't prevent me from betting :)
You bet.
10:21
@Cicada And I bet you are wrong. In fact that is all I said :)
I do
12 mins ago, by sehe
@Cicada I'm pretty sure you're wrong.
@sehe At least for what concerns arguments, unless we're talking about actual gambling, in which case I have to ask what the heck this is about
And I bet I'm right, so in the end you're still betting!
@Cicada I never said I wasn't
10:24
I once bet someone that I could generate a program which could determine if a program halts. I can't lose.
I never said you never said you weren't
@Neil Depends.
Then there is no point in telling me "you're still betting". I'm also still chatting, in case you didn't notice I knew that too
so, looking at dabs, SSDs seem to be roughly €1 per GB, so 3.2t would be (roughly €3.2k... so yeah, not sure where that sits with $, I think it's about $7k
@Cicada No, I can't. Technically one more day could pass and I will have found a program which can do that.
@Neil Depends.
In the general case, you can't
10:25
If I haven't yet, then the verdict is still out, hence I can't lose.
Your "if a program halts" is misformulated
You certainly can determine if a program halts
But not all programs
You may want to use any instead of a
If a program halts, you can detect that. If it doesn't, you can't.
he's escaping through vagaries
Simple as that.
Precisely. Perhaps Neil should team up with DeadMG and see if they can prove that the SHA-2 'solver' will complete before the end of the universe.
Sadly constructing the proof will not complete before the end of that universe
10:27
Though in all seriousness, I know the halting problem applies to a generic program
(a generic program. what is that)
But what does that mean? If I provided "hints" about the program that I could solve the halting problem?
@sehe I still don't understand how that guy can spend so much time on that :(
In computability theory, the halting problem can be stated as follows: Given a description of an arbitrary computer program, decide whether the program finishes running or continues to run forever. This is equivalent to the problem of deciding, given a program and an input, whether the program will eventually halt when run with that input, or will run forever. Alan Turing proved in 1936 that a general algorithm to solve the halting problem for all possible program-input pairs cannot exist. A key part of the proof was a mathematical definition of a computer and program, what became known a...
@sehe what's he trying to do?
10:28
Wiki states it as "arbitrary computer program"
Neil probably means generic as "arbitrary"
You can't write a program which can determine haltability on an arbitrary program.
@Cicada Oh, I do understand. I have a picture of 12 year old me, sitting in the backyard, reading through a hardcopy of the disassembly listing of MSDOS debug.com. People do strange stuff out of love/fascination. Hopefully, they learn :)
What about specific programs? What does that entail? What information would I require?
@thecoshman You can ask the puppy. I'm not sure he knows all that clearly.
@Cicada (apparently :))
10:30
You can determine if a program will halt for precise, particular cases
The general case is indeed non-solvable
I proved it in my previous life.
@Cicada My professor never delved into what these precise, particular cases are.
Are they trivial, or could you potentially write a C++ compiler that could determine haltability?
user image
3
a place full of @sehe's
@Neil You'd simply need a restrictive langauge with only statically provable constructs. Several such languages have been designed (and are in use at Nasa/Boeing and stuff like that. I remember there being a functional language that is formally provable being used in the inflight software for a fighter jet, but I don't feel like searching for a link right now).
Since C++ programs are not "generic programs" in a loose sense.
@Neil Um well. int main() { while(1); return 0; }
Assuming this is the only thing that composes the program
10:31
@TonyTheLion I weep at the sight
@Cicada So you think it'd have to be trivially so
hi nubbinses
This case is trivial yes
@Cicada I thought that was UB
if you do not know the details of a computer program, you can not know if it will run for ever. Thus you can only determine programs that have stopped running and those that have not yet stopped
10:32
@Cicada didn't someone have a question about that being allowed to not run forever?
@sehe lol
@sehe Took an interesting graduate course which demonstrated that you could write a programming language which can be formally proven to do what you think it should
@awoodland This is compiler optimizations
Though it doesn't really exist for programming languages as complicated as C++
@Neil That's the stuff I'm talking about. The key is restricting the language constructs for flow control and adding rigorous semantics where necessary.
@Neil It can't. You might approximate it by detecting subsets of programs that adhere to a strict, provable, subset, but in the face of exceptions, libraries you will fail sooner rather than later
10:33
if(program == "int main() { while(1); return 0; }") return false; else return true; QED
back from my examinationing
@sehe Why can't it? Stuff like this exists for less complicated languages
Not saying it would be simple or easy to read or even desirable, but possible, I think so
@Neil It can't. You might approximate it by detecting subsets of programs that adhere to a strict, provable, subset of language features, but in the face of exceptions, libraries you will fail sooner rather than later
59
Q: Optimizing away a "while(1);" in C++0x

Johannes Schaub - litbUpdated, see below! I have heard and read that C++0x allows an compiler to print "Hello" for the following snippet #include <iostream> int main() { while(1) ; std::cout << "Hello" << std::endl; } It apparently has something to do with threads and optimization capab...

@DeadMG how was it?
10:34
was the question I was thinking of
@sehe We talking about proving correctness or the halting problem? I'm confused now.
@TonyTheLion Better than I expected but probably still didn't pass.
@Neil Correctness is easier than halting.
arguably, the Halting Problem is perfectly decidable, if untenably slow, to decide for any C++ program
no, wait, I forgot about that extra I/O stuff
ignore me
@awoodland Compiler optimizations as I said
True, IO complicates things greatly
Assume the program behaves exactly as you wrote it
Or to simplify, assume it's not C++
10:36
Though assuming you could ignore IO or random number generators
if you didn't have arbitrary program input whilst it was running like sockets or file I/O
@Neil the topics are closely related
you could, arguably, decide the halting problem, as a C++ program may only have 2^(sizeof(void*) * 8) states
@sehe If you could prove a program correct, could you also demonstrate that you could determine if it halts?
Proving correctness requires proving the halting problem in most languages
10:37
@Cicada hehe
@Neil Yes.
correctness includes halting or not (usually not) given any input
@DeadMG That makes sense
@DeadMG ignored :P
but correctness is easier than halting in general, because that includes non-provably-correct programs
@DeadMG oh damn
10:38
So halting problem is a subset of proving the correctness of a program
That seems to be as close as you can get to understanding a program in its entirety
Not exactly
@Neil Not really. It's difficult for anything to be harder than "undecidable".
in addition, proof of correctness requires a ridiculously strict specification, which is hard to come by for any but the most trivial programs
I think the proof that says "you can't prove correctness" boils down to "do X then prove then program can halt"
Or something like that
however
@DeadMG If proving the correctness of a program necessarily proves the halting problem for that program, then by definition proving its correctness is more difficult
Of course, if one doesn't imply the other, then that's no longer the case
10:40
> A distinction is made between total correctness, which additionally requires that the algorithm terminates, and partial correctness, which simply requires that if an answer is returned it will be correct.
@Neil Not necessarily. A specification may choose to not define whether or not a program halts for input X.
@Neil "More difficult" than impossible? Wat
most real-world programs can have propagation-based stuff which significantly eases the load, though, like type systems
most Turing-completeness only comes in to play once you start doing shit like self-modifying code
@DeadMG Then the correctness of that program must guarantee it halts or not for X. You can't prove it halts for X, therefore you're stuck with the classic Halting problem
for real programs, anyway
10:42
But again, that's a subset of provign correctness, because you could likely arrive at all sorts of similar problems
@Neil Not really. If the specification does not state that it must halt or that it must not halt, then either halting or not halting is correct behaviour.
thus, x || !x == 1, meaning that any program meets the specification of "Doesn't halt, or halts."
@Neil Yeah there are a lot of similar problems, all these use the halting problem as their core proof
@DeadMG If the specification says anything about returning a value, it must halt, that is trivially true
You could have a trivial specification which says nothing about the program, but then, you've proven its correctness trivially
lol
lunchtime, be back later
:)
10:44
brb need a shit
TMI
Who are brb?
big round...
@sehe ... buckets
balls, of course
10:48
butts, clearly
biscuits, per chance
banjos, if you like
boomerangs, tentatively
bonobos, are a must
bananas, likewise
bombs, I dare
These gurus. They ramble quite a lot. I'm so happy 'throwing a tantrum' and 'find typos' are on his list of 'How to succeed'.
Uhoh. Reverse logic doesn't apply, @thecosh
@sehe which reverse logic applying to what @seh?
The logic that is beyond your cognition
Keep rambling. It is too quiet
That cognition is ahead of their logic
ah, perfect time for me to proclaim once more, clearcase is utter shite
You forgot the uppercase. People won't see how you're shouting
10:57
how will people see 'how' I am shouting if I use upper case?
oooooh, now I see the lady bug
hi @KarimA

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