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22:00
@sehe But yes I have seen numerous chess games, in fact, some of them live-streamed.
It's not an acronym, btw.
In second grade there was a checkers tournament. First game I played a girl and won. Teacher recorded it wrong and I was never invited back for the next game. Week later that girl won the whole tournament. And then I found five dollars.
Whoa. Intense story.
Surprising twist
Needs a better punchline.
@RMartinhoFernandes || @Pubby, up for a cup of chess ?
22:01
Blind simultaneous ?
Welp, I'm getting thousands of WM_PAINTs even if window is hidden.
That wasn't a punchline, I just didn't think it was a very interesting story without it.
@sehe Blind simul :) ? No thanks, I can barely manage blind 1 :)
@ScarletAmaranth I'll probably be debugging this crap for the rest of night.
I still want to play boardgame-online.com with someone here
22:02
WHY, WINDOWS, WHY.
@CatPlusPlus "Paint bitch, PAINT!"
Why do you hate me so much.
@ScarletAmaranth See. You keep giving away not so subtle clues that you're actually a really experienced player. How on earth would you ever do blind in the first place
Oh, now it works.
Apparently, telling Windows that WM_PAINT was handled invites another message.
@sehe It's not difficult at all, I'm pretty sure anybody would be able to play blind at maybe 60% of their strength after a few days / week of training.
22:03
Ad infinitum.
@sehe It's MUCH easier to "remember" sequence of moves as "the moves themselves" if that makes sense.
@ScarletAmaranth That's not helping :) You basically state you did that :)
Or maybe it really expects BeginPaint to consider it really handled, and just get confused when I return 0.
Oh well.
I FIXED IT.
@sehe If someone played random stuff against me, I wouldn't be able to remember the thing simply because it would be unnatural.
@ScarletAmaranth I can see that. It is also precisely what extrapolates to 'oodles more experience'
22:04
Chat, stop with this "try again in 1 second" nonsense already, dammit.
@sehe Not true :)
@CatPlusPlus Why are you using WM_PAINT?
@sehe You will play me and possibly win one day :)
@sehe (Soon i hope!)
To put an event in my own queue.
@CatPlusPlus SE Chat userscript: Ctrl-space
22:05
it's only useful for GDI (and maybe GDI+)
not if you're rendering with OGL/D3D
I don't use it per se.
I just make a note of it.
@sehe Also, I've never heard word oodles but it has a fuzzy ring to it, I like it.
This crap is quantic, it seems. When invoked in isolation, I get one result. When invoked inside the class, I get another. TF is going on.
@ScarletAmaranth Oh that sounds like a real nice challenge. I'd love to play. Anyways, I should be shaping up to teach my kids. My oldest got the rules down when we were on a holiday (she was 4yrs/old by then). She actually played a decent game, in the sense that she made no very few technical errors, and with my overt analysis of options, she even began to avoid "obvious" bad moves.
She was really proud. She still talks about it, but we don't actually get the board out. I figure that day will come on it's own accord
@ScarletAmaranth a fuzzy ring? oodles with halo?
Something still doesn't work. Meh.
At least it doesn't crash.
Doing anything in C++ makes me so tired.
22:08
@sehe ^^ What's the word for an attribute that certain words that just happen to sound well have ? It's got a fuzzy "pop" to it :P ?
@sehe Also, being able to make no technical errors at the age of 4 is real amazing.
@ScottW Nuva ring?
@ScottW Yarr, thanks ;)
hmmm
define import libraries in something platform-independent like XML? or just let them be platform-dependent like .dll
@ScarletAmaranth Yeah I just toned that claim down. It was more than I'd expected from the patience of a 4y/old. And yes, she did generally follow the explanations and come up with valid moves. She'd give me the 'tilted head' when she proposed silly stuff like "I bet I can't go back with that pawn". So not entirely independent and confident about the rules, but she was able to see the game in spite of all the rules
22:11
actually, I'd go with a textual format more similar to Lua
that's what the "like" is for
Just make it a simple format you can parse easily.
Binary, possibly.
@CatPlusPlus I was thinking of skipping
So you don't actually have to parse it.
yeah, make it a binary format
@DeadMG Ah, ok, so "like" stood for "unlike". I see.
:P
22:12
no, wait, it has to be binary format, for some of the other fun requirements
whoopsie
well, that's what I'm writing the spec for- so I stop forgetting this shit
@DeadMG Spec for what?
@sehe Btw, if someone can "see" the reasoning behind why not to open with something like A3 after just being taught basic rules, then that's quite impressive.
@ScottW awesome. :P
@Drise Wide.
Almost, but not quite, entirely unlike XML.
22:13
@ScarletAmaranth What's A3? (I'm used to the other notation (algebraic, I think))
@ScottW I've added an admin interface but you need to make yourself admin first.
@ScarletAmaranth I haven't done more than a single game really, in 2 sessions (it rained a lot during that holiday) but she went on to teach the little brother all about it, and they'd be smashing each other off the board :)
@RadekSlupik What does your dev environment consist of? Linux?
hmm
@RMartinhoFernandes A3 is pawn to A3, otherways you need to specify the piece you want to move. Say, Rook to f4 would be Rf4.
22:14
if I specify libraries that can work between compilers in some ways, then that effectively comes down to dictating some compiler internals
I'm not sure how I feel about this
a question not related to c++ but i dont know where to ask : what is the difference between stackoverflow and programmers websites ?
@tigrou We are 8% more awesome on Stack overflow.
@ScarletAmaranth Oh, it's the rook column?
@tigrou SO is mostly for code questions, where programmers is more about theory
22:15
@RMartinhoFernandes It would be rook if you said Ra4 :P A4 defaults to pawn to A4.
Rook is a piece.
Dammit. I dunno what cell is A4.
@ScarletAmaranth Not like that, really. I'd give an opening and would evaluate all legal moves she came up with. Then I'd suggest something that didn't have a particular drawback (like, indeed suggesting that the knight would be less restricted when out in the open), and then let her choose. Halfway during the game, I'd just look at her and she'd figure out the problem with a move if it would immediately jeopardize any of her pieces/pawns
22:15
I was taught to name cells after the piece.
Things like Q4 for "4th cell in the queen column".
@RMartinhoFernandes Hint: not a stem cell
@sehe Yeah that's actually quite impressive. I tried teaching my 24yo sister how to play chess, she had no intuition whatsoever, her brain was unwilling to comprehend it :P
Oh, it's "descriptive" notation.
@RMartinhoFernandes That's never going to work, because it's quite ambiguous. For example, white's queen column or black's queen column? Which rook's column?
@ScarletAmaranth Chess is hard, and almost requires thinking like a programmer... oh wait, that's us...
22:17
@DeadMG Always the one playing.
@RMartinhoFernandes You still have two rooks.
When there's more than one rook column that makes that move make sense, you can be explicit and say "king rook", for the rook on the king side.
@ScarletAmaranth I wonder how much patience she would have today. She really started to be more of a attention spreader since she entered kindergarden (pre-school?)
In my humble opinion, chess is NOT like programming. Analytical thinking doesn't quite apply, as far as I can tell. But I may be way off.
Most of the time it is not ambiguous because there's only one that makes it a valid move.
22:18
hmmm
where to draw the line between implementer freedom and implementation compatibility?
In the middle!
@ScarletAmaranth Analytical thinking does apply. To tactics. The more strategical parts is more like an art form - associative thinking, taste, elegance, pattern recognition, goal seeking etc.
@RMartinhoFernandes Surprisingly, that actually helped.
@sehe Programming!!... I think....
Strategy is a lot of about intuition and well, strategical thinking.
Tactics are a lot about "spatial thinking ?", to be able to visualize the scenario and evaluate it and discard it.
22:19
@DeadMG I'm that awesome.
@sehe I don't think analysis applies that well to tactics :) But then again, most disagree :)
@sehe At least for me, it's a lot about being able to visualize the scenario. I sort of brute-force tactics. Maybe it's not a good approach :)
@Drise There are striking parallels. However there are differences. In chess, there's luck and depending on the moves of the opponent, in programming, things are usually statically known/predictable in advance (the 'common execution paths').
@sehe Not to mention that I prefer not to see the chessboard if I need to solve a tactical problem.
@sehe I know. I'm being a gorilla.
hmmmm
calling convention... will have to be a string, I guess
22:23
@RMartinhoFernandes That's a bit ego-centric if I do say so myself.
@ScarletAmaranth The tactics is a lot of if-this-then-that, reminds me of transaction semantics (think swaps) and of optimization/priority problems (think ordering of piece swaps, sacrifice). It is also about smart and elegant 'designs' (combinations; most often arising after/with careful planning)
@Drise Awesomeness cares not for such petty matters.
Hahaha
@Drise :)
@RMartinhoFernandes So you're that (type of) awesome. .... mutters to self Great.
22:25
@sehe Possibly, but tactics are not that analytical, at least for me. I sometimes have this feeling that "oh, wait a minute, there must be something there". I reckon, for me at least, it's lot more about pattern recognition and visualization, I guess you can say it is related to analysis but I wouldn't put it that way really :)
@DeadMG I still don't see how "I accidentally one day" is correct.
@RMartinhoFernandes In Dutch there is popular 'folk' song (more like Schlager in German) "'t Is moeilijk bescheiden te blijven" / (It isn't easy to stay modest) // ".... als je zo goed bent als ik" (if you happen to be so awesome as I am)
@Drise It's a meme.
@Drise It is correct. "One I day accidentally" wouldn't be sound.
@Drise How is that relevant to the message you pinged?
sbi
sbi
22:26
@Drise It's missing a word on.
When someone forgets a word, "they accidentally a word".
O.....k ..... I know you people were off.... but...
You know nothing.
You have to stay and learn.
3
@ScarletAmaranth I think that builds on prior analysis. You'll just be able to instantaneously reduce certain patterns to known scenarios, and then with time you'll be able to 'sense' in what cases to be wary of your intuition.
@Drise It's an Internets-wide meme. It's not specific to us.
22:28
JOIN THE RESISTANCE.
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: You know nothing. You have to stay and learn. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq]
Woot.
lol
@DeadMG I was not aware.
Hmm. My tests were wrong.
@sehe Well, possibly. The different cognitive processes aren't all that strictly separated, it's just our abstraction layer over it, so I will agree with you, partially :)
That might explain why the results didn't make sense for the past two days.
22:29
@RMartinhoFernandes I hope it weren't blood tests
@sehe But I think there's lot more to it than cold blooded analysis of scenarios :)
@RMartinhoFernandes SCIENCE.
I'm bored.
@Drise You the Internets knowledge test.
But there is a bug.
@CatPlusPlus Teach yourself Lojban.
22:30
Let's try a Dredmor run.
@CatPlusPlus Yay, I love dat game.
@sehe Nah, my oil is ok.
@CatPlusPlus Although I have never passed the third level so far :( (permadeath ofc)
@ScarletAmaranth Yep. When the underlying 'evaluation functions' have been 'unit tested' and prove reliable, you can move on to the next abstraction level and start composing evaluation function from them. And you can train your mind to intuitively order candidates
I never won any roguelike.
22:31
Roguelikes without permadeath are suck.
@ScarletAmaranth That without a doubt
I won NetHack once!
@sehe Yeah I still think you're giving way too much credit to analysis there :) Maybe I'm giving way too little though :)
Ell
Ell
Hello everyone.
22:32
250.
@Ell Go away, no one likes you.
@Drise I like him more than you ;)
@ScarletAmaranth I don't blame you.
Whoa, today (or yesterday) at our local zoo:
We like him even though he doesn't know what shower is.
Ell
Ell
22:33
Calm down, there is plenty of me to go around ;)
@sehe So, did you escape?
@sehe Yeah ok, lets just stand here and watch the glass crack mkay?
@ScarletAmaranth I'm pretty sure of the latter. Because I always lose to missed tactics. My strategy game comes quite naturally and I do a good job of planning and balancing position.
@CatPlusPlus I'd never even thought about my avatar there :) I guess I still don't give much about avatars, even though strictly speaking, I 'have one'
@sehe That was most misleading.
for one, it was a falling rock, not the bear, that cracked the window
Ell
Ell
Zoos are horrible places
22:35
and for two, the window was not at all broken, it was merely damaged
@DeadMG So, where did I mislead? I just posted a factual vid, saying 'Whoa'.
Sensationalist title on my Internet? Well I never.
And to think I paused my pandora for that.
@sehe The video title misleads. It says "polar bear breaks window".
@CatPlusPlus Oh. Who reads titles.
22:36
@sehe Also, tactics are way easier to "learn". It more often than not comes down to strategy in very high end level games.
hmmmm
Well, I'd consider the window broken. It doesn't say 'visitor area flooded after glass punctured'. I sure wouldn't be happy standing there. That's a whole lot of glass, water and polar bears towering 3 meters above ground level.
to introduce feature where you can offer different interfaces depending on what version of the Wide Standard you are using?
yesssssssss, that's the smarts
And We have subscriptions, so we visit that zoo quite regularly
In ten years you all will end up on the C++ standardization committee, I can feel it.
22:38
We, the king.
@sehe So, you are that polar bear ?
@RMartinhoFernandes Noticed too, eh.
@RMartinhoFernandes What?
@ScarletAmaranth +1
22:39
@Drise Nah.
@DeadMG I'm going to assume that was a joke.
@ScarletAmaranth Perhaps. I wasn't aware, so I actually payed for my subscription. Sigh. I should get a free entrance pass :)
@RMartinhoFernandes Nah, it's just being future proof :P
how pissed off are you that stuff like Boost::Optional has no move semantics?
if C++ had provided graceful degradation properly, you wouldn't have that problem
Erm.
It doesn't have it because no one implemented.
There's no magic that can fix that.
@sehe Can you imagine the situation if you came to Zoo and asked for a free subscription on bases of your being a polar bear ? :P
22:40
Ye of little faith.
@ScarletAmaranth Imagining is cheap
the point is the same
allowing libraries to have interfaces which can gracefully degrade is just a smart thing to do
@sehe Now I feel like trying that out just for the lulz.
@ScarletAmaranth I've done it. I got a tranq dart to the ass. It wasn't pleasant.
especially as it costs me realistically nothing
22:41
@RMartinhoFernandes Unless the default compiler generated move ctors/move assignment are good enough. Which happens more often than you'd think
@sehe Not for boost.optional.
@sehe Not for a class like boost::optional.
BAM!
Wow, you really need to be careful about what you say in this channel :D
Ok ok. Easy now. I knew that. this didn't specify that single example
22:42
@DeadMG But I'm not pissed that C++ doesn't have that.
Because it has.
Clunky and fucking crappy, but it has.
I'm only pissed that they didn't use it.
@RMartinhoFernandes I prefer to not keep the "Clunky and fucking crappy".
@ScottW lol feature request.
Aaaand here's a sentence that's 99.99% correct.
2 seconds later, 7 people point out the logical flaw, contradiction and provide 7 different axioms from which the incorrectness of your sentence can be derived in no more than 8 hours.
@DeadMG I can understand that. But you didn't pick a good example to get the point across.
eh, fine
22:44
@sehe did you just mention me?
@ScarletAmaranth That makes no sense to me what soever but I'ma star it anyway
@RadekSlupik ? huh
the point is the same- it's just a smart move
Meanwhile, I was about to do something.
Something.
@ScarletAmaranth ICE: out of memory
22:45
But what?
@sehe Also, I sometimes wish there was something like "fog of war" in chess. That's the only thing I "don't like" about chess. In computer strategy games, you need to have a unit around your enemy to see what they're currently doing. It's interesting they made chess work even though it's all there to be seen.
@sehe or maybe it was somebody else.
Oh never mind it was Scott.
@ScarletAmaranth How can you have fog of war without an arbiter?
(In video games, the arbiter is the computer)
@ScarletAmaranth It's not all there to see. Unless your opponent is psychic. Also, the fact that you know what your opponent can see, gives you ways to 'abuse' those expectations
I was about to mention starcraft
22:47
I said : "HI!" :)
user406009
@RMartinhoFernandes Could do it Stratego style, with single sided tokens.
Need one of these for fog of war
Allow me to paraphrase Tracy Jordan. "BORED!"
@EthanSteinberg Sorry, dunno what that means.
22:48
@EthanSteinberg Nice idea.
user406009
Stratego is awesome!
I thought that was @RMartinhoFernandes
@EthanSteinberg Oh, I thought "single sided tokens" was some weird thing.
It's not perfect though.
The opponent knows there is something there.
"It could be purple, it could be pink. Depends on how you mix that drink"
Ell
Ell
22:52
Coool
0
Q: C++11 initialize map

Negative ZeroI am trying to initialize a STL map using C++11 syntax but that doesn't seem to work. After initialization, when i try to access the element, it tries to call the private constructor of Foo. Did I miss something? It works if I use at. I am wondering if I could use operator[] to access initialized...

Where is the standard?!?!
hmmm
I should have remembered to specify a void pointer type
necessary for so much binary interface malarky
Ell
Ell
Widec needs an abi interface thing!
So binaries are compatible
@Ell It has one. That's what I'm writing right now.
Ell
Ell
Yaay for abi comparability! Boo for c++ in that reguard!
22:57
there's no u in regard, buddy
Ell
Ell
Oh :P
Regard looks American o.o how do Americans spell guard?
You acciduentally a word there.
@Ell Like that.
guard and regard sound similar, but they are completely different words with different spellings.

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