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00:10
Sombody with a 64-core/128-thread AMD Epyc system just reported a bug.
See if you can see it:
DWORD processors_within_group = GetActiveProcessorCount(group);
KAFFINITY mask = ((KAFFINITY)1 << processors_within_group) - 1;
shifting by 64 bits
yep
Windows can have up to 64 cores per processor group.
And shifting by 64 bits is UB.
In this case, it shifts nothing leaving it as 1. Subtract 1 and you get a zero mask instead of a mask of all 64 bits set.
@Mysticial I've thought for years that the C standard should have required the implementation to imitate having a carry/borrow bit, so a shift by one extra bit like this would shift the one into the carry bit, and the subsequent subtraction would just work. On most systems, this is much easier in assembly language than in C or C++.
00:31
Now I'm scratching my head over how the fuck did this code ever work in the past. Since I did play with a system with exactly 64 cores in one group last year and I didn't hit it.
You used a hard-coded mask perhaps?
Erm, it's raining.
@StackedCrooked My theory is that I didn't have the warning in there at the time. So it failed, but I never noticed it. On that system the groups were setup with sizes 64 and 24. The operation on the first group (of 64) would fail. And when it fails, it no-ops. But since the first group is group0 it is also the group that the program was already running on and already pinned to. So the no-op was harmless.
The 2nd group was the one that mattered since it involved moving threads from group0 into group1 and since it had fewer than 64 cores, it went through correctly.
The one that didn't matter failed as a no-op, but was harmless since it was supposed to no-op anyway. The one that did matter worked correctly.
Ok. That's possible too :)
Seems like a re-occurring problem
@Mikhail "64 cores ought to be enough for everyone?"
00:42
Honestly most static analysis tools would have caught that
@Mikhail They would catch it if I was missing the cast. But I'm not sure about this particular case unless they specialize for it.
First off, its a c-style cast which is already flagged
But at the same time static analyzers also bitch about harmless shit like:
int unknown_funcion();
int table[4];

table[unknown_function()];
I mean yes, it's possible it can go out-of-bounds, but what else am I'm supposed to do? Bounds-check the return value?
@Mikhail Which static analyzer does that? Neither MSVC's nor Intel's does.
@Mysticial ReSharper is has a good one that integrated with MSVC, I also use PVS, and cppcheck
@Mysticial Given that the name of the function is 'unknown_function()', then you probably should, yes :)
But I believe that contracts may help with this in the future.
00:55
In the mean time, it looks like Intel's Cilk Plus is not playing along with AMD Epyc.
The guy was noticing tons and tons of data corruption and redundancy failures.
I noticed that all the ones that failed used Cilk Plus in some way. So I asked him to switch it to my own thread pool. And it seems like the errors went away.
He was so afraid the problem was an instability with the hardware.
corruption sounds like its pretty fucked
Anyways if you want I can run a binary on a 70ish core system
I'm gonna try inserting a couple-store fences into the Cilk Plus wrapper to see what happens. It's possible that Epyc's might have longer memory order latencies than Intel. And if Cilk Plus isn't implemented correctly, it could let NT-stores "leak" out.
@Mikhail Sure. Just try out the binaries on y-cruncher's site. lol
Though I doubt it since one of the errors was in a place without NT stores. fuck
In the more optimized thread-pool join implementations, it's often possible to implement a join by simply checking a flag. If it's set, the other thread has already finished and you don't need to anything. So you can move on.
But that only works if you have the correct memory ordering. IOW, by the time you read that "finished" flag as set, you can already read the results of that thread.
Normally, this is the case on x86 since writes are not reordered. But this can be violated if you do stupid shit like NT-store, clflush, etc...
And I'm doing the former.
01:27
So what happens when a system process or interrupt calls CLFLUSH ?

The invalidation is broadcast throughout the cache coherence domain.
It flushes the cache line. Everything that was written to that cache line may get reordered with other writes to different cache lines.
So, whats to prevent your mouse driver from fucking shit up?
There's a contract where if you do anything that will break memory ordering, you need to call a store fence to fix it before you exit the region.
In my code, I don't call the store fence when I "exit the local region", instead, I call it when I synchronize. That way I don't need store fences everywhere.
But I omitted the store fence on several of the frameworks including Cilk Plus. And you don't need it if they're already synchronizing with mutexes or any lock-prefixed instruction.
Perhaps, I'm not reading it correctly. Does CLFLUSH affect all the cores (or whatever the heck is the cache coherence domain)?
also FML, I just changed an enum and now I need to wait for a recompile
@Mikhail I believe it evicts the entire cacheline from all cores that have it.
01:31
does anyone else think it's photoshopped?
Yeah, so you can evict a cacheline on a separate unrelated thread, perhaps in a separate process. Doesn't this go against the "contract" or calling convention you mentioned before?
I mean if you divide the weight of the car / contact area of the tires ... wait, just by looking at the image, you know it would not be real
@Mikhail You can already do that without clflush. Just write to the cacheline and it will evict it from all other caches to give you exclusive access.
Most used words in C++ - according to github
@Telkitty It looks like CG.
01:43
also complete bullshit
I think it's based on stored C++ related files on github
interpreting the graph, wtf does font size mean, etc
@LucDanton rofl
inb4 peak players
dw they stiffed wvw roaming so that should keep things in check
speaking of which I do have a glass cannon thief build somewhere handy
01:53
can’t have enough pistols
No but seriously, what are they doing?
Is the game dead yet
@EdgyAlpaca the sixth and final episode of LW3 is upcoming
presumably they’ll reveal something some time after we know where the story takes us
but hey they improved the rewards for the daily pvp tourneys so there’s that
@LucDanton "the studio is shutting down"
thanks for participating in this Aperture Science Enrichment Center Experiment
@EdgyAlpaca boy those dragons sure don’t kid around
well, the ones we haven’t killed yet at any rate [SPOILERS--UNREAD THIS]
@Telkitty Yes. I think they've dropped an image of their car into this picture:
02:01
@Mysticial Okay, I ran it pastebin.com/9LMHna5h
ooooh 256 GB of ram with only 8 sticks
@LucDanton wew
now that I think about it why didn’t they call it Dragon Wars 2
@Mikhail Damn that's fast.
@JerryCoffin in your expert opinion, how feasible is to drive from LA to SF along the coastal route in a smart car (fortwo), if time is not a restrain?
02:03
Some of the cycles were used by firefox
It beats the 44-core Broadwell-E from last year.
I wonder if it's because of the new NUMA-interleave allocator I put in it.
Reserving Working Memory: 143 GiB (locked, spread: 99%/2)
^^ The answer is probably yes.
Would be nice if it could reserve something between those two
reserve?
Yeah, something if you want to use most of your 256 GiB. I'm unsettled by having ~100 GiB of free memory...
@LucDanton Have you played Zelda BotW?
02:05
@Telkitty Offhand I can't think of anything that would cause a real problem.
console
@LucDanton I built my PC just to play GW2, I bought the switch just to play Zelda.
@Mikhail If you want to use more RAM, calculate more digits.
@EdgyAlpaca wow that’s dumb
@Mikhail Yeah. Unfortunately, I picked those sizes years ago for something suitable at the time. I never really tried to extrapolate it to current machines with 100's of GBs and tens of cores.
@JerryCoffin The next "benchmark size" is 50 billion which would need 280+ GB on his box.
But you can do custom sizes in between.
02:08
Paillettes dans le vagin: Tout savoir sur cette tendance qui s'impose outre-Atlantique
@LucDanton is it
Fuck it I'll just use swap :-)
œil, poutre, paillettes…
@EdgyAlpaca yeah think of all those gaems you could be playing on the same computer
@LucDanton Worry not for I have also played a lot of Overwatch, Diablo, SC2, and others
Although dwarfed in terms of hours by GW2
@Mikhail If you want to test the effect of the NUMA, go into custom compute and set the memory allocator to use only one NUMA node.
Right now, it detects both of your nodes and interleaves across nodes 0 and 1.
@EdgyAlpaca you actually like Blizzard games?
that’s kinda weird, no?
That explains why the price for Hardened Leather Sections just dropped
hey Mr. Smith did something!
02:15
@LucDanton Yes I do. They are generally well made. Why is it weird?
I also play lots of non-Blizzard games.
@EdgyAlpaca I’m not sure, in the end I suppose I have no idea what you look for in a vidya gaem
Fun, ideally with friends.
Terraria, Civ 5, Risk of rain, idk
that’s the part that’s not surprising
Civ IV master race
@LucDanton Well, Blizzard games fit the bill, IMO?
02:21
@EdgyAlpaca keeping in mind I only have limited first hand experience (namely SC2 & Hearthstone), I don’t think Blizzard releases have been very interesting for a long time
I see. Heartstone was nice but I didn't get deep into it. SC2 was fun.
Had you played Team Fortress 2? Overwatch is basically TF2.
@Mikhail I can’t bring myself to play it anymore, I’m drifting towards Paradox these days
@EdgyAlpaca loads
Then you should enjoy OW
I don’t think it even has hats
I knew you'd say that
02:23
Frankly, Civ is too involved, if you were drinking all night you would pass out. With Civ you'd keep going. Its like FourLoko.
cos it’s true
CiV 5 is nice, only game where you blink and 17h have passed.
Probably gonna start a pit boss game with friends, over 3 different timezones
likely gonna last for months
That game gives me post orgasm regret
Brood war was better with time management
02:28
@EdgyAlpaca it’s not like I don’t know what it’s like, I’ve seen streamers
ever since I start writing own game, I have stopped playing them on PC/mobile - not completely but drastic decrease in playing time until recently
an increase in the recent times was because of having to wait for slow android studio
could always squeeze a game or two while waiting for the IDE to load
@LucDanton So what keeps you out of it?
@Mikhail Mikhail I have an important task for you
Is there a potential to frivolously exploit public funds?
Or do you need some embryos?
do you have enough land around you to hatch that fertilized emu egg?
02:34
Basically the plan would be as follows: 1. you work out a genius idea for a GPU startup 2. you give me this idea 3. I implement it and become rich 4. you feel satisfied by this outcome
Sounds like my current arrangement but nobody is calling me a bitch to my face
so it's a win win!
I have a brilliant idea (as always of course, trollololo): we use drone to do tree pruning
@EdgyAlpaca the last Blizzard gaems I did play I tend to find that they check just enough boxes to, well, be fun enough not to dislike but kinda leave it at that. then there’s the massive amount of production values and polish which is always nice, but the other things I play kinda have it the other way around: they may be clunky or silly in a lot of ways, but they really give a lot of things to explore in depth--as it turns out that’s how I like it
I'd propose we use a pitch deck from a already existing startup. If by chance they point that out the obvious plagiarism we claim that the company in our "vertical" validates the idea.
02:37
@LucDanton I get what you mean. What other game do you play for example?
in no particular order the things that have had my attention lately are Path of Exile, Stellaris, and right now Crusader Kings 2
But you know a genius idea doesn't warrant you becoming rich right? that's why companies are in herd when implement strategies - smart phones, cloud etc
the truth is that, you will find a hard time selling your genius ideas because too risky to actually making $ out of them
sad truth
that's why there is actually little breaking through inventions - because investors prefer more sure way of making money
@LucDanton PoE and Stellaris look fun.
@Mysticial pastebin.com/Rv9mfppj okay I set it to use only node 0 instead of node 0, 1
oh Cities Skylines as well, I knew I was forgetting something
I kinda rotate month after month
02:42
@Mysticial actually looks like it didn't compute enough PI
@LucDanton Did you like HOI4 and EU4?
@Mysticial so I noticed that the CMD output is prone to a known problem where the user can pause execution by accidentally pausing the terminal. You gotta bring up a second CMD without "QuickEdit" mode
@Mikhail I consider that a feature. lol
@Mysticial Here is an unformatted code dump
void fix_windows_console_selection()
{
//https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20130506-00/?p=4453
//Quick edit mode means selecting text will pause the software, which is insane and bad
//auto hConsole = CreateFile(L"CONIN$",GENERIC_READ, FILE_SHARE_READ | FILE_SHARE_WRITE, NULL, OPEN_EXISTING, FILE_ATTRIBUTE_NORMAL, NULL);
auto hConsole = GetStdHandle(STD_INPUT_HANDLE);
DWORD mode;
if (!GetConsoleMode(hConsole, &mode))
{
std::cout << "Failed to get console handle" << std::endl;
}
mode &= ~ENABLE_QUICK_EDIT_MODE;
(see full text)
lol StdHandle sounds funnier when you've been working for like 12 hours straight
02:57
Un peu d'humour noir ça n'a jamais tué personne !
Alors que le juge Lambert dormait tranquillement à côté de sa tronçonneuse, cette dernière s'est mise en marche toute seule et a découpé le pauvre homme qui, pour lui échapper a du sauter par la fenêtre et a atterri dans un baril de béton frais que l'on a retrouvé ce matin immergé au large du vieux port. La police n'exclue cependant pas la thèse du suicide.
c’était marrant mais un peu à côté de la plaque comme commentaire
ça me va
j'ajouterais même que ça me correspond bien
ben oui mais t’es un peu à côté de la plaque comme personne
"marrant, mais à côté de la plaque"
à mettre sur ma pierre tombale tiens
03:05
mais ça n’a pas de sens la sépulture va être en dessous de la plaque
un post it, alors
Whole fuck, I found a bug where a bool converts to a float. Why does the language allow this kind of bullshit?
an integral value is an integral value, of course
Your mother in an integral value. I want my time back.
Why would a bool not convert to a float?
(I mean, in C++ logic :))
03:16
it doesn’t add up, but it’s integral nonetheless
Fuck that shit, I want all arguments to be explicit by default, and maybe also named function arguments like Python.
use Python
fuck you, fix the language
I guess that’s as good a segue as I could expect for an API design question of mine
segway
anyways, function arguments lead to bugs
03:19
you know how projection arguments are all the rage these days, e.g. group_by(&blah::some_member, lotsa_data)
you could do the same for a min_element_by(&blah_some_member, iterable)
I guess
but you could also do that for a typical minimum function, i.e. the usual binary std::min. except that a nice minimum function is not just binary but variadic these days (again, like the usual std::min)
so, what are the nice ways to pass that projection in?
Why are you trying to ruin std::min?
@Mikhail there’s no need to worry about that
I don't get it. What does it look like?
03:22
@Mikhail I don’t know, that’s the question
@LucDanton uhhhhh
maybe add a tag? ._.
@EdgyAlpaca Why would a bool convert to a float?
10 mins ago, by Luc Danton
an integral value is an integral value, of course
I hate manipulating file system
annoying at best
@EdgyAlpaca seems too cute in all the wrong ways, doesn’t it?
03:25
@JerryCoffin 1 = 1.0000
waiting, you need double for precision
@LucDanton I can't think of anything less worse, maybe just call it differently.
@Telkitty error: '=': left operand must be an lvalue
I’m tempted in leaving things entirely explicit by having the factory that makes the min function entirely separate. then you can’t get the argument order wrong, can you?
think auto minimum_magnitude = make_minimum_by(abs);
that gets old really fast
Seems like overlapping functionality, essentially if you can pass an arbitrary min function - well heck then you're just implementing a two function predicate concept (or whatever its called)...
03:29
@EdgyAlpaca would you like for me to up the ante?
try me
@Mikhail no, when you need it you need it
@EdgyAlpaca well, functions that take a projection are also known to often have a variant where the caller provides a comparison :)
are you going to have that variant be an overload, or _make_more_suffixes?
Provides a comparison? What is?
@EdgyAlpaca e.g. order(proj, std::greater<> {}, things) to get descending groups according to proj
you are allowed to point out that the user should call max instead
@Mikhail key function vs comparator vs both at the same time, to re-use Python terminology
seems like something that would already be solved with order(things, lambda), no?
unless I'm missing something this seems like over engineering :w
03:40
@EdgyAlpaca righto, I’m using functions (or algorithms if you want to call them that) on iterable/ranges/what have you aka runtime number of elements as a point of reference. my API question is: for those functions which have an exact binary/static variadic number of elements counterpart, would you try to write a similar API taking projections and comparisons for the sake of consistency? what would it look like?
e.g. std::min_element is the iterator counterpart of std::min
@EdgyAlpaca it’s not like we can splat in C++
would you try to write a similar API taking projections and comparisons for the sake of consistency?
no tbh I'd probably cry in my own incompetence
what happened
I read your code once
once.
I think that was just one of your nightmares
I can't come up with anything elegant, do you have ideas?
03:49
between the very explicit factory or ghetto named arguments I would lean towards the former
I'd actually prefer named args...
well I’d love proper, language-specified ones
but not as a library solution pls
@LucDanton yes I was typing that you thief
I want smart IDE
how do you feel about designated inits?
03:51
to correct all my typos and logic errors
min({ .by = &thing::member }, a, b, c)
Designated init is legal C++ now?
@EdgyAlpaca it’s being voted soon!
sorry, I meant to ask 'how would you feel'
does it matter?
Seems like a hack so I guess it's true to the C++ spirit
03:53
lmao
as a bonus it’s confusing re: the actual, badly designed std::min interface because with that one you can std::min({ … }, blah) to pick the smallest of the two arguments
working as intended!
and of course it’s not possible to have a variadic min(a, b, c, { .by = … })
but you can be consistent with the other stupid aspect of std::min, namely having min({ a, b, c }, { .by = … }) be the variadic form. but then you don’t really need named arguments! and it’s stupid!
Daily reminder that std::clamp is brand new and designed with the same systemic failures as min
you say systematic, I say consistent
anyhoo that’s a good API design question, innit?
what about order(things).by(std::greater<>{}).proj(blah)()
03:59
@EdgyAlpaca I would typically reserve the bare name for full defaults (identity projection, the usual comparisons)
@EdgyAlpaca I pointed you to my tentative stuff before right?
risky click
wew you 1-upped your docs
yeah you better steel your eyes
@EdgyAlpaca what?
maybe I'm confusing with someone else but that looks Fancy:tm:
well, that stuff is up because I originally wanted stylistic input, there’s a buggy variant as well
@LucDanton Well that looks nice...
Linear time with respect to the number of elements of ctx.
how
04:06
yeah had a chat with robot about that
after thinking about it I realised group is not the right name for the functionality--it coincides with group in certain circumstances (e.g. sorted input), but it actually belongs to a whole family of functions which I don’t know what to call just yet
functions that handle consecutive runs, if that speaks to you. so it’s like that one is consecutively_group or consecutive::group or a myriad of other API design choices
right, ok, the "sortedness" makes it O(n)
 
2 hours later…
05:55
Sup guise
@Telkitty you want someone/something that will write everything for you.
@Luc adjacent_group?
06:12
@Mikhail Missing early return if the mode cannot be retrieved. The STD_INPUT_HANDLE AFAIK does not have to be a console handle, it can be a pipe or file.
06:32
I really hate it, when you pay someone to do something, he tries really hard, then ruins your stuff. I don't want to elaborate more on that ...
but out of sympathy, you still pay him
@Telkitty You mean, the guy really put his heart on the job but failed miserably?
@EdgyAlpaca works for me:
float f = 3.14;
bool b = true;
std::cout << f + b << '\n';
And this works as well:
bool b = true;
float f = b;
std::cout << f << '\n';
@Rerito something like that ... because of inexperience most likely
@fredoverflow I think you misread or missed part of the conversation
@EdgyAlpaca Indeed, I didn't read anything above your message :)
06:39
welp
Tu rentres quand à la Mère Patrie @EdgyAlpaca ?
Le mois prochain
Rly?
@Telkitty Tree pruning in the computer science sense? :)
06:40
Do you have your next gig up already?
Nop
I've been interviewing with a few companies, nothing decided yet
I guess you won't be looking in Paris area
Considering starting my own thing
@Rerito Correct :D
fuck paris in general
Welp, I kind of like it here
Finding a decent gym is a real PITA outside of Ile de France
06:42
That is true
@Mysticial table[unknown_function() & 3] you're welcome ;)
However I can't stand the paris transports
Also not close enough to nature IMO
However, since real estate prices are much lower... I'ld consider getting my own home gym in a basement or garage
I was actually considering opening my own gym lol
Not really profitable here
06:43
Outside of IDF it's doable with an investment of what, 100k€ maybe
Yeah but it will be difficult finding a good client base
And you need to market for people to subscribe then not show up
Which is kinda sad if you ask me
Personally I would like it to have guise running gyms like Untamed Strength here
You should really visit HK just for the gyms, I think you'd be blown away
Yeah it's pretty lame here
I still get some snarky comments when I get my afternoon protein shake
People would lose their mind if they knew I also have some creatine mixed with the brotein powder
srsly?
o.O
06:50
Yeah I get often told shit like "J'espere que tu prends pas de creatine ou des saloperies comme ça"
"Attention c'est dangereux pour les reins"
The level of bs is so high srsly
Once a dude watched me doing squats
I always hit parallel depth at least, so I end down quite low and obviously my knees get past my feet
I wonder if there are people who use startup to laundry money
"Mec tu devrais faire attention c'est dangereux quand les genoux dépassent les pieds"
it's like money laundry in the casino, but ... in a different way
@Rerito bah, en usage normal je crois pas que ce soit dangereux, mais en usage prolongé y'a des risques IIRC
@EdgyAlpaca Le danger réel c'est sur le cisaillement ... qui est bcp plus prononcé sur une presse à cuisses par exemple :)
06:54
@Rerito lol
This or people using the smith machine because its safer
Or misusing belts
Viens on fait notre propre gym :noel:
@EdgyAlpaca Ouais, 2 power racks, des plateformes de DL, des barres ivanko a 600 boules
ah nn moi je fais dans le grandiose hein
4 étages mini
ok, un étage gym avec anneaux, chevaux, barres parallèles
06:57
douches, vêtements de rechange, bar "bio" + suppléments
@Rerito :D
des bacs à magnésie en libre service partout
Funny thing, I used to lift with gloves. I gave up on them and use magnesia instead
And since then, I have much less problems WRT grip
And my palms hurt less in the long run
07:21
My knees seem to have slowly recovered from injury
@Ven Le ménage a été fait.
07:38
That whole net neutrality thing. That's US right?
It has annoyed me for ages that literally no one ever explains the scope of that.
US did a dumb again?
Including those petition site(s?). I'd like to know whether I should sign, and whether it's even legal for me to do so.
Not sure why the signature of a non-US citizen would carry any value for US laws.
Because if SO puts on that banner on there, they might get a few million Indian votes :)
@sehe Yep. In Europe we already have laws about this. In the UK we have very strict rules.
07:40
Erm.
In Europe
In the UK
Last I heard UK ditched net neutrality or at least instituted censorship
Here's one tidbit for the UK theregister.co.uk/2017/03/28/… And here's another telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/01/26/…
I'm sure I've seen more things in that vein.
then there is Brexit because of islamophobia
Ven
Ven
08:06
@EdgyAlpaca ah ?
@EdgyAlpaca Le pli de droite posait problème ?
@EdgyAlpaca those are clearly distinct
Downloading the entire archive of questions and answers on Stack Overflow would only use about as much data as watching 10 hours of Netflix.
interesting
Ven
Ven
08:46
@BartekBanachewicz very unsurprising
it's all text
08:58
@sehe last I heard they were planning to

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