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00:00 - 18:0018:00 - 00:00

6:00 PM
magic
 
Good evening. Let's star some messages
6
 
@JerryCoffin They gave me an ETA. Monday the 3rd. I'm almost ready to call bullshit on that. But it does make some sense if it's gonna sit on a train to run over the weekend.
 
@Mysticial Is that X299, if I may?
 
@Mysticial Oh, decent choice! Personally, I'd have gone with Asus or Asrock Taichi probably.
 
6:07 PM
My CPU was supposed to arrive today, but got delayed a day probably because they tried to deliver it at like 5am or something.
But that doesn't matter without the motherboard.
But the fact that it's coming on Monday means I lose the weekend.
 
Which CPU?
 
7900X
 
Nice
 
I initially wanted the 7820X. But only the 7900X is supposed to have the full AVX.
 
That means you're going for avx512 if I understand correctly.
 
6:09 PM
Correct.
I dunno if you have any insider information or not. It's not under NDA anymore, but are you able to confirm that the 7800X and the 7820X do not have the dedicated port5 FMA?
There's an ES sample for the 7800X that shows that it does. Which has me and bunch of people on several forums puzzled.
 
Well, I'm not working yet, starting mid-summer
 
oooh
 
Yeah, papers
But I'll take note. Aren't there pdf's for that?
 
@iksemyonov There's nothing but shit on the internet.
 
@Mysticial Well, this might be risky because it may be under NDA, are you sure it's not? Be glad to help of course.
 
6:13 PM
All the review sites that commented on the half vs. full-throughput AVX512 have consistently said that the 7800X and the 7820X do not have the port5 FMA and therefore only have half-throughput AVX512.
But right here is data that directly contradicts that: forum.hwbot.org/showthread.php?p=490233#post490233
 
You don't have any access to insider stuff yourself, do you?
 
The only way everybody could be right is if that ES 7800X is not representative of the retail 7800X.
@iksemyonov Very little - as in one meeting with Intel reps.
 
But, aren't the intrinsic tables available yet? The throughput is always there IIRC.
 
@iksemyonov No, Agner Fog can't do them until at least a month or so after the hardware retails.
 
You may join the team as well, actually :)
@Mysticial Ha, true, the intrinsics landing page only has Knigths Landing data, if I'm looking up the right thing
 
6:17 PM
@iksemyonov I don't trust Intel's official documentation for anything performance related.
When they disagree with Agner's numbers, Agner is usually the one that's right.
 
@Mysticial One thing that has caught my attention is the mesh, is that going to require adaptation in your code?
 
That's not to say that Intel is intentionally being wrong or misleading. More likely, what they list is the theoretical value, but actual values are worse due to other bottlenecks.
@iksemyonov no
 
@Mysticial OK. I'll have to learn a lot of stuff, hopefully they assist me in the process. The main reason why I accepted was to learn hardware stuff well enough from the people who do it.
@Mysticial Is that meant to say that there is one port for 512-wide avx, that can be used as 2x256-wide ports when required for avx2 instructions, and the other 512-wide port is missing?
That would mean double the fp throughput of a haswell / broadwell e.g.?
 
@iksemyonov Skylake Purley/X's implementation of the AVX512 keeps the old architecture. The port0 and port1 vector units stay 256-bit, but will combine into a single 512-bit unit. Port5 now has a dedicated 512-bit FMA unit. But this unit is disabled on some processors.
All the Skylake Purley/X models will have AVX512. It's just's a matter of whether they have that port5 FMA.
 
@Mysticial Can you do 4x avx-256 on that layout or only 2x256 + 1x512?
 
6:27 PM
@iksemyonov Without that port5 FMA, the throughput is no better than Haswell/Broadwell/Skylake desktop.
@iksemyonov Neither.
You can never do 4 x 256-bit AVX.
And it's unknown whether 2x256 + 1x512 is possible.
 
@Mysticial OK, makes sense
@Mysticial And this probably makes sense too, it's understandable at least
But is 2x512 possible on those with the second port?
 
@iksemyonov I'm almost certain the answer is no.
Since each port is limit 1.
 
@Mysticial Hmm, wait, but how is double throughout possible? I may have phrased something incorrectly I think
 
Right now, it's also uncertain whether a 512-bit instruction going into port0/1 is one uop or 2. And if it's only 1 uop does it completely block off both ports, or only the vector units.
@iksemyonov Sorry, I thought you were referring to only the 2nd port.
 
@Mysticial Both combined on a fully enabled CPU
 
6:32 PM
Yes, it's possible. One 512-bit instructions goes into port0/1. The other goes into port5.
 
Will you be getting an x399 as well for learning?
 
So sustained 2 x 512-bit vectors.
 
@Mysticial OK, logical
 
@iksemyonov No because it doesn't have anything interesting other than core count.
If anything, I might upgrade the 7900X to the 16 or 18-core chip when those come out in October.
 
@Mysticial Fair enough. I'm still on a 3930K of a golden batch and a Rampage IV Gene. Won't ever sell it even when it loses any value.
 
6:33 PM
@iksemyonov It's actually possible to do 3 x 256-bit on Haswell and up. port0/1/5.
But the FPUs are only on ports 0 and 1. Though you can do 3 x 256-bit SIMD integer adds.
That will only increase to 2 x 512-bit on Skylake X full throughput.
 
@Mysticial Didn't know about that, I used to think port5 was for logical kind of instructions only
 
@iksemyonov Port 5 used to be only for shuffling, and bitwise ops. (as far as vectors go, it can also do a bunch of scalar stuff) But since Skylake desktop, it can also do vector adds.
 
6:47 PM
@Mysticial Ah, that's right where I stopped following Intel arch updates since I woulnd't be getting a desktop Skylake anyway, and I got the impression that it was pretty much the same as Broadwell
But now I may be eligible for a discount, which means X299 possible
 
7:03 PM
@iksemyonov I'm actually wondering how I can get in on some of this engineering sample business. One of the biggest grips of the Skylake X reviews is the lack of benchmarks that support AVX512. Had I had engineering sample (+ mobo) a month ago, I could've produced that first AVX512-supported benchmark.
And with all this AMD competition, Intel has been going out of their way to advertise their AVX512.
 
@Mysticial I somehow think you're closer to Intel than I am right now with your reputation and work experience
 
Hey
 
Hey!
@Mysticial But wait the link by you over@HWBot indicates about a terflops DP on 6 cores?
That.. that would be over 1.5 TFLOP's SP
 
7:19 PM
@iksemyonov Correct. And if you run the numbers, it indicates full-throughput AVX512 on that 6-core.
 
@Mysticial Also, aren't you dividing the cycles per second by the latency? I think that's how it is calculated typically?
(2 FMA/cycle for full-throughput AVX512) * (2 Flops/FMA) * (8 DP/instruction for AVX512) * (6 cores) * (4.5 GHz) = 864 GFlops
 
@iksemyonov Latency doesn't matter. It's throughput.
 
* (8 DP/instruction for AVX512) * (6 cores) * (4.5 GHz)
is clear to me
 
2 x 512-bit FMA/cycle
 
Why "cycle" if it takes 4 (e.g.) cycles to perform an FMA?
 
7:22 PM
yay pipelines
 
It takes 4 cycles to do an FMA from start to finish, but you can start one every cycle.
 
Let me get some tea and take the book by my university profs that I use as a reference
 
Wooo I galloped for the first time
 
@Mysticial I answered that question and we divided by latency in the interview, not sure we're discussing the same thing though. That may be the key
 
Like actually and not totally panicking
 
7:24 PM
@iksemyonov Then both you and your interviewer fucked up. Two wrongs make a right.
 
@Mysticial Are we evaluating the peak floating point performance of the CPU?
 
@iksemyonov Yeah, theoretical sustained FLOPs.
 
per second.
Which means the real time for an OP is taken into account, doesn't it?
 
"You can start one every cycle" this bit isn't quite clear to me since it will take 4 cycles for the current one to complete, won't it?
 
7:27 PM
Looks like they delivered my CPU today anyway. I'll I'm missing now is the fucking motherboard.
@iksemyonov It doesn't matter how long each one takes. If you start one/cycle and you end one/cycle, then if you want long enough, you're throughput is still one/cycle.
And 1 second for something that only takes 4 cycles is definitely "long enough".
 
Xeo
All you're missing is finishing this season's animu
 
@Xeo yeah, fuck you. That's not funny. :)
 
Xeo
Seriously, do you need my constant supervision to be a weeb?
 
@Xeo Once I get this new build running, I'll be able to watch 10 episodes at once - one per core.
Then I'll catch up.
 
Xeo
suuure
season is ending right now
lotsa stuff is already done
Tsugumomo, Alice to Zouroku, Rokudenashi, SukaSuka, ZeroSho, Busou Shoujo
LWA
 
7:31 PM
I hate Frame Arms Girl because I need to be careful when I abbreviate it.
That show is really stupid now.
 
@Mysticial lol unexpected acronym
freaky alien genotype
 
Xeo
@Mysticial "Eff-Ay-Gee" :P
Effigy
there you go
Also, that show sounded stupid from the beginning
 
7:48 PM
I probably won't be able to catch up on Anime until the end of July.
 
oh thanks! didnt know there is QA
 
a common misunderstanding, this is after all the A&Q lounge
 
So, lets say you have a class that is called WhateverBuffer, you'd expect that to be a buffer of Whatevers, right?
And the WhateverBuffer::create_whatever_buffer(pointer_to_whatevers, whatevers_length) function to actually create a buffer containing whatevers.
 
Maybe it returns a singleton?
 
Seems reasonable?
 
8:14 PM
by value
 
@CaptainGiraffe I'd expect that to be deleted and replaced with std::vector<Whatever>
 
So something like
{ std::vector important_data(other_src.begin(), other_src.end());
auto buffer = WhateverBuffer::create( &(*important_data.begin(), important_data.size());
return buffer;
}
Would be perfectly cromulent?
@Puppy I need the WhateverBuffer in API calls.
 
I don't understand why you pass objects into a buffer, that some kind of copy operation?
 
oh, well, if they're particularly dumb, then sure
 
@Mikhail It is guint8's
 
8:16 PM
Can't you use just use a std::vector?
Are you trying to roll your own OGL wrapper?
 
Meet Gdk::Pixbuf. Where Pixbuf::create(), is just pointers to the original data. My debugger reports the contents of the Pixbuf as a single gObject*. The created Pixbuf crashes my DE when it is used in any api calls. The docs didn't help much.

At least it was satisfying to find the bug.
 
Sounds like a common paradigm, cimg, opencv, qt have the same quasi ref counting stuff
 
The only thing that bothers me is the name Pixbuf, a buffer is to me at least, a very strong indication that it owns actual stuff.
 
it's legit for it to own a buffer of pointers to other stuff
not the C++ way normally but it is certainly not unthinkable
 
I find Pixbuf::create( &(*important_data.begin(), important_data.size()); to be particularly misleading. It was just a big surprise to me.
 
8:23 PM
Typically a buffer stores data for the library. Libraries like these can have owning, or non-owning buffers (for interaction with external code). The key is that to the library only a buffer can hold "readable" data. Anyways, that's how I explain it.
 
-6
Q: cin as a variable name producing garbage value

Shivam AroraFor the following code: int main () { int cin; cin >> cin; cout << "cin" << cin; return 0; } I expected the output to be: cin + input But the output is: cin + junk value

the questions people will ask
@CaptainGiraffe aren't pixbufs deprecated anyway, I could have sworn you're supposed to use cairo directly now
 
@Mgetz I get raw rgb from a camera, I can tell cairo to draw that rgb pixbuf easily without any transformations. Did not notice any notices of deprecation. If you can point me to a better method I'd be happy as a cucumber. I'm using gtk3, with gtkmm.
 
@CaptainGiraffe check your documentation
I'm pretty sure they were removed outright in GTK3
dunno about GTKMM, I avoid it
@CaptainGiraffe you'll have to write it to a surface first IIRC
 
The actual code looks like
Gdk::Cairo::set_source_pixbuf(cr, currentPixBuf,
(width - currentPixBuf->get_width())/2,
(height - currentPixBuf->get_height())/2);
cr->paint();
cr is the Cairo::Context.
 
you can probably translate that reasonably over to GTKMM
 
8:30 PM
Entire thing can be done in like 3 lines of Qt
 
@Mikhail Qt has a better API too but don't disabuse the poor soul
 
I love QT as much as the next guy, but I find gtkmm to be reasonable. Despite Pixbuf-gate being on the news the last 48 hours.
 
wait, what has Pixbuf got to do with any recent news?
 
@Mikhail But that is only 2 lines? =)
@Puppy You have to keep up with the not-fake news - chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/37845333#37845333.
 
I saw that message but did not notice any news relating to it
 
8:36 PM
@Puppy It was news to me.
 
oh
 
@Mgetz It looks like I'm using the API correctly. And thanks.
 
I was under the impression you were referring to actual news
 
@CaptainGiraffe good to know
 
@Puppy Yes, but the news was (too) localized.
 
 
1 hour later…
9:51 PM
People on electronics.stackexchange are boring. You ask them how to reverse engineer something and they tell you it's easier to buy something well defined instead
I don't actually see the fun in ordering something I might never actually use for real than using the garbage that just scream for a new life instead to directly go to the garbage
 
user1804599
10:14 PM
People on Stack Exchange answering a different question than the one being asked? Well I never.
 
The wors part is that the question got put on hold for "asking to repair something"
 
This is a form of the "go consult an industry specialist" response I see a lot on ServerFault. Obliviously, they don't know the the answer.
 
@Mikhail Less likely on EE than ServerFault, I'd guess. On EE, it more likely comes down to: "You're asking me to give up $200 worth of my time to tell you how to save a part that's only worth $2."
 
In both cases its industry practice to ask somebody else
 
@JerryCoffin On SO we do that and the answer are actually worth nothing
 
10:21 PM
Welp, what a debacle. So some sites annotate properly with schema.org/Article metadata. But then then fail miserably by including extra text, e.g., in their dates: 'datePublished' => ['Posted Jun 26, 2017 12:33 pm EDT']
 
Things shouldn't be measured how much it cost but how much it save peoples time
Tell me about time when we'll switch from a 24h/day to a radius per % of revolution
no timezone and no daylight saving time
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix "radius per % of revolution"? Umm...what?
 
Well let say we pick radius 0, 12h would be 180 degree
6 months -> 180 degree
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix "radius 0"?
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix The curve is elliptic. It the degrees would have different relative length.
 
10:27 PM
well that's why I say percentage
so rather 50% of the revolution but the unit doesn't really matter
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Well, then you can still use days instead, except without months maybe.
 
months could be used technically but I'd rather use different units to prevent confusion with the old system
 
Well, you will have to find your own utopia/tyranny to do this.
 
the thing that I'm not sure are leap years. It's not clear that each "year" will be at the same point in time
Not really, we still need a time unit that make sense outside of earth
Well this system wouldn't help on that matter
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Why? Also, with relativity, I do not think there is any one.
 
10:31 PM
Because a day on mars isn't 24hours
well relativity is a bitch
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix The problem with elliptical orbits remains. See Keppler's second law. The time required to sweep through N degrees (or N% of an orbit) varies with the distance from the sun, which changes as we move through the orbit.
The earth's orbit is close enough to circular to render this mostly theoretical, but the same is definitely not true in general (e.g., it would be quite a ways off for Pluto).
 
But you could still split the time in frame of equal time and not equal degree of orbit
degrees are just a unit easy to picture
you know that 180 is half a circle so you're halfway through the year
I'd be more worried about the leap years where 1 day is added, Not sure we can include those hours in the orbit years as our the earth revolution on itself doesn't match a full year anyway
so we'd have days and night flipped at some point
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Yes--it'd follow roughly a 4-year cycle from "noon is noon" to "noon is midnight", and back. As bad as calendars are (and yes, they are awful), this would be less usable still.
 
10:48 PM
I was bored at work. lilypond
@BartekBanachewicz you, or the horse
 
@JerryCoffin the leap your sounds like the most known to man hack
 
11:09 PM
@BartekBanachewicz How do you feel about Haskell as of today? Do you still like it?
 
> also i heared some claims that the Vatican is constructing a robot with the sape of jesus for a second coming
 
@sehe How does that sound?
 
11:28 PM
@wilx see the reply subject message
 
Hi all, does anyone know a good, friendly c++ team that looking for more team members? I know there are job listings, but I'm just asking in case you know of one that is friendly and functional.
 
Functional as in...?
 
Not dysfunctional, my guess
 
user1804599
In that the team functions
 
user1804599
Which implies it maintains a high quality standard at all times
 
11:36 PM
By functional, I mean supportive, communicative, and positive—a generally light-hearted place to work, but also where each of the team members is pursuing excellence.
 
user1804599
@sehe I need a fun C++ project
 
No you don't.
@Homer6 So basically without customers :)
 
user1804599
I'm not quite sure what would be a fun C++ project
 
user1804599
I don't want to write a VM again
 
I don't want you to write any more VMs
Cure cancer instead.
 
11:41 PM
I'm not necessarily looking for a fun project. I love coding in c++ and love computer science. But, there are some teams in the c++ community come pre-installed with... showboatism? Trying to uninstall that, if possible.
 
user1804599
I don't know how to do that
 
user1804599
I'm not an oncologist
 
@Homer6 What is your experience [with that]? If anything, I come across too much "tinkerism" - people that say "C++ is fast and therefore you can and should write code that looks like C, to show how down-to-earth and bare-metal the code is"
@rightfold You know, you may not need to be one. Interesting scientific problems have been solved by people from outside the subject field
 
user1804599
Ooh I have this project lying around for aiding in autodidactism
 
user1804599
Maybe I should write it in C++
 
user1804599
11:46 PM
I had not settled on a language yet but I have made a functional design
 
@sehe I'm not quite sure what you mean. What's my experience with people that flaunt? Sometimes there are team members that try to outdo each other with displays of knowledge and will put down team members that say, "I don't know."
 
here comes the gif
 
Not even
@Homer6 Ah, not technical show boating then. Just bad team play
 
@sehe it’s okay, I’ve got my protective goggles on
 
@sehe Exactly. :-)
@sehe Do you find that people generally look down on using c++ as a pick for a high-level language?
 
11:52 PM
You will have to be the judge of that on interview. When asking around in a network, I don't it works to ask about that :)
 
I like using it because it's simple and I can write apps quickly in it. But, I don't hear that from others.
 
@Homer6 Not really. Maybe too little.
C++ is not simple. I can write stuff quickly in it, but that's not a property of the technology.
 
@sehe What do you mainly build in c++?
 
Software.
All the software. We also use a bit of python + obviously javascript in the web UI
 
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