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user1804599
12:03 AM
> obviously
 
AFAIK javascript is currently the only viable browser scripting language.
Everything else compiles to it right.
 
user1804599
PureScript is more viable.
 
Do browsers natively support it.
 
user1804599
Well, you also use x86-64 then
 
That makes javascript a bit more obvious.
@rightfold Obviously
 
user1804599
12:11 AM
So I'm writing a compiler again
 
user1804599
First one that has multiple semantic analysis passes
 
user1804599
😃
 
user1804599
It has four passes instead of one
 
@sehe Cure heart disease. Kills more people than cancer, I believe.
 
12:28 AM
@JerryCoffin Why not both?
 
12:56 AM
@JerryCoffin If you live in "ugly" America its heart disease, else its cancer
 
@Mikhail wow since I live neither here nor there that must mean I will live forever. pretty lucky
 
Perhaps you're not living?
 
oh no I didn’t think of that
 
I like how they make area with heavier people greener
 
1:02 AM
bonus points for confusing BMI with weight
 
BMI = weight / height / height;
I am sure you can find a graph of height distribution to confirm the above finding
 
Hmm, whats the best way to balance three colors channels to form a composite color image. I'm thinking match the mean and variance, but I wonder if you can measure the the QE of the detector, but then you'd also need to adjust for a non-linear relationship between exposure time and registered photon counts . Whats actually done in commercial cameras?.
Like histogramming the data seems computational expensive, I wonder what my webcam is doing.
 
then there is the variation of the display device
 
Yeah, potentially a manufacturer could measure the CCD response, but it would be as a function of exposure time...
 
Alright, I have a first world problem:
 
1:12 AM
Just use the GPU, everybody knows CPUs are dead!
 
Ooh. 10 physical cores.
Hm, recommended price is $999. That's not too bad.
 
@Mysticial when i looked quickly at the thumbnail i thought the plastic wrap was smoke :P
 
lol
 
@Mikhail They have that at microcenter.
 
1:15 AM
Its the successor to the famous train case
 
@Mysticial did you buy a studio, your kitchen bench top looks awfully close to the desk in your study
 
@Telkitty I actually don't have access to that info. So I suggest you contact the NSA.
 
also I need a new PC
but I have a lot of stuff to migrate
 
1:18 AM
but I don't have the money
 
Fucking Newegg didn't ship out my mobo until today. ETA is the 3rd.
All the mobos that I've ever bought from Newegg were shipped from California.
This time is no exception.
 
All the motherboards I bought from NewEgg were shipped from Chicago
#ServerPartsMasterRace
 
They have a warehouse in Illinois?
Because I don't need to pay sales tax when I buy from Newegg and ship to Chicago.
 
1:46 AM
I broke my 2nd drone over the weekend, I need to fix it
drone flying is fairly expensive consider how easily you could break or lose something
 
2:14 AM
a neat paper that wants to add an SFINAE-friendly form of return type deduction, e.g. [](auto a, auto b) => a + b. comes with a side of noexcept(auto), although that bit is sadly underspecified
 
2:27 AM
> The Palo Alto report, on which the design of the Ranges TS is based, suggested the object concepts Semiregular and Regular for constraining standard library components. In an appendix it concedes that many generic components could more usefully be constrained with decompositions of these very coarse concepts: Movable and Copyable.
I sure am glad to hear that
oh fuck, so many papers
of course, this month’s big darling that’s getting all the attention: Metaclasses
> The [concept] rules support -- and to some extent encourage -- a programming model of concept refinement by textual coincidence, not semantic equivalence
Mr. Smith & friends are not holding back
> Identity of atomic constraints doesn't depend on token sequence? tons | dozen | 1 | 0 | 0
proof that committee votes are rigged
> This paper would like to see a shorter way to forward arguments and proposes non-overloadable unary operator>>
oh boy, new syntax hills to die on
template <class F, class... Args>
auto delay_invoke(F&& f, Args&&... args) {
    return [>>] { return std::invoke(>>f, >>args...); };
}
proposal >>thataway
this mailing has 147 items that’s crazy
now that I think about it I sure hope that unary operator>> will spawn a unary operator> proposal for tersely moving
 
I wonder if the Qt example in meta-class would lead to some kind of terrible compile time overhead.
 
@Mikhail but of course
 
Qt is the only modern program I know that takes hours to build
 
> important question: is it actually the GW2 OST? a friend of mine actually got the factions OST instead.
 
3:28 AM
obviously, you have not worked with many in-house softwares
as a ex-hopper, I have worked with many programs that take hours to build
 
3:45 AM
@LucDanton Friend has the same problem.
@LucDanton what the fuck
@LucDanton that broposal was good
 
>>arrows >>make >>go >>fast
 
also $
 
no that makes you rich
oh it’s a fast forward
I didn’t even say it on purpose
 
I am confused - did google play store changed my login for me after told me that I have to set up an new account with the new email then port everything cross myself?
I could login with new email but where can I update my apps?
 
tis not in titles nor in rank,
tis not in wealth like London bank,
to make us truly blest
if happiness have not her seat
And center in the breast,
We may be wise, or rich, or great,
but never can be blest.
fucking gogle failed me
 
3:50 AM
this is all confusing when you try to handle too many different things in your life
 
what's up people
 
not learning another new language, no swift no kotlin
if you have so much $, please make your IDE/dev environment better
 
@Telkitty lol
 
@VermillionAzure Vendor provided DLL causes stack corruption
we need an std::process to make isolation easier
 
4:07 AM
We totally do not need another new language when your IDE is slow as a tortoise, the features your provide are working half of the time. Then you leave how to get those half working components to function to developers who are using those components. So you can move on and work on some new features/languages that provide incremental value that as large as flea eggs. IT IS NOT OKAY!
If it's not raining I should be out fixing some houses instead
If you provide me with half working infrastructure, I shall publish half working apps
 
4:30 AM
omg android developer console I <3 u
so the account is transferred across
and I didn't have to do anything
 
4:50 AM
a pack of ... (lazy) dog
 
5:06 AM
@Telkitty :)
 
:D
 
5:26 AM
Hey guise, this will be the year of the arm Windows desktop/laptop, when customers device that saving $4 is worth comprising their computing experience
 
5:47 AM
@Mikhail I wouldn't bet a whole lot on it. It might work out that way, but I'd put the odds at about 60-70% against it. Being able to run Linux (and such are pretty much irrelevant. The part that's open to question is how much contact Qualcomm (for the obvious example) has with the people who design laptops (and such) at the usual suspects (HP, Lenovo, etc.)
 
@Mikhail Well, it only depends on how will SW vendors support it. I do not see why it should not work well enough in the low end.
 
Given manufacturing lead times (and the not so minor detail that it's already almost July) contracts with them have to already have been signed for there to be any real chance of anything happening before the end of the year. Bottom line: from a purely technical perspective it may be quite feasible--but that's almost the least of the real concerns.
I suppose in fairness, I should also add that in this case, "design" with respect to laptops is mostly about deciding on specs, not doing much in the way of actual design. Essentially all the manufacturing is handled by a half dozen (or so) manufacturers (Quanta, Compal, Wistron, etc.)
 
6:25 AM
FYI, I was expressing bewilderment
 
@Shoe of course. Why wouldn't I?
@sehe me. It wasn't like the first time ever the horse galloped under me, but it was the first time I actually got a hold of things. Fun!
@sehe woah. I'm totally picking this up today
 
Xeo
@LucDanton fuck unary >>, that conveys nothing - we need >-arg-> for moving and >=arg=> for forwarding, obviously
 
6:56 AM
lol
 
7:18 AM
I have a question about this book amazon.com/Starting-Out-Control-Structures-Objects/dp/… I want to add that book under The Definitive C++ Book Guide and List. Do you guys think this would would be a good book for beginners? I am currently using this book and I think its a great book for beginners. Thank you
 
@Tyger you've paid $162.92 for a book?
 
you can get the pdf for free here syl9.com/csci193/Notes/193eigth.pdf
@BartekBanachewicz I bought a used one for around 70 dollars
When I bought it I didn't know there was a pdf of that book.
 
still sounds like quite a lot
> Exceptions, Templates, and the Standard Template Library (STL)
I don't like it already
Also pointers are in chapter 9, and classes in 13.
@Tyger So just basing on the table of contents, I'd say no.
it also introduces new and raw pointers right when it talks about "programs that have to store an unknown amount of data"
 
7:34 AM
Okay sounds good, what's the problem with Expections, Templates, and STL?
 
@Tyger C++ Standard Library is not called "STL"
 
7:47 AM
You know something is special when @chandlerc1024 calls it "ridiculously impressive" https://twitter.com/chandlerc1024/status/879966231339573248
 
Or even more special - when Cat++ does that
cat never called anything "ridiculously impressive"
 
@sehe my quizzical eyebrow has been quizzed, will take a look when I find the time
 
apparently the whole internet is copying off each other on some issues
 
@sehe What is he calling "ridiculously impressive"? (Twitter blocked here)
 
when I looked for a solution on a problem, the part that got explained was explained multiple times leaving the thing that I didn't understand unexplained
 
8:12 AM
@Rerito Mozilla/rr
 
@BartekBanachewicz It indeed looks "ridiculously impressive" :O
 
Ven
Hi
 
8:31 AM
I'l almost finished reading things I roughly understand in the latest mailing.
 
Ven
Anything interesting?
 
Intel Nervana looks interesting
 
8:49 AM
@Ven A few interesting things, but most were already presented before I think.
Nothing "wow, new and shiny!" except for metaclasses.
 
@Telkitty Maybe, just maybe, that's because that's not at all within his verbal patterns
Katt will never say ridiculously impressive
 
Maybe some concurrency things, but I don't understand everything.
 
Ven
@Morwenn metaclasses :O?
 
I didn't read that specific paper yet, but apparently it's about AST modification and shit like that :p
 
Ven
lol reflection and all
this isn't gonna go well. i think.
 
8:57 AM
Oh, there's surely potential for abuse :D
Maybe we can even write a few pieces of good code with it.
 
Ven
I don't think this'll get accepted.
right..?
 
I don't think it's proposed for tomorrow but for a more distant future.
 
Ven
this is gonna make error messages amazing
 
The goal is to "ship language features as libraries" x)
 
Ven
no I mean
the idea being this all isn't insane
and has existed for 30-40+ years
 
8:59 AM
> A Clang-based prototype is available
 
Ven
:O
waIT WHAT
 
It's even in the online compiler explorer apparently x)
 
Ven
It's insane
 
Seems so.
I've still got to fully read the paper though xD
 
Ven
did they just bring in AST macro with imperative introspection "for fun"?!
 
9:02 AM
dunno
 
Ven
I'm still unsure how to react...
 
Try it? :p
 
Ven
the compiler explorer is godbolt?
 
yup
cppx.godbolt.org
Seriously, fuck copy-paste from PDF files.
 
Ven
:X
apparently splicing AST fragments (->) desn't work yet
 
9:06 AM
ok
 
Ven
for (auto o : $thisclass.variables())
 if (!f.has_access()) f.make_private();
nice typo tho
who do I email?
looks like $thisclass doesn't work either lol
 
so it’s pretty much functional then
 
Ven
Ah!
$class interface {
    ~interface() { std::cout << "yo"; }

    constexpr {
        -> { void f() {} }
    }
};
that works, however!
sometimes they use $thisclass, sometimes $interface, ..???
 
@Ven $value in something that’s not named value, too
 
Ven
Okay, so I just need to use $interface, lol.
 
9:12 AM
oh yeah sorry
 
Ven
how do I share a cppx godbolt link?
it actually works pretty well
 
the share button as usual
 
Ven
so they actually have a lot more things working than I first thought.
the paper just has too many typos
 
I don't know the flavour of reflection it uses, how do I splice back a reflected type?
 
Ven
luc i'm only at page 5 of that pdf why do you ask me
 
9:16 AM
@Ven it’s not in the pdf and I’m asking anybody
@Ven the gist of it is that the reflection proposal (or even proposals) are separate; this is a way to use it in a principled(ish?) manner
 
Ven
i'm just unsure as to where this fits WRT reflection TS
 
but I don’t follow the reflection stuff so I’m discovering as much as you are
 
Herb said reflection is a separate thing unaffected by metaclasses
metaclasses use the reflection stuff
at least that's what I understood
 
would you say that the gist of it is that the reflection proposals (or even proposals) are separate?
 
yes
 
Ven
9:21 AM
only c++ can achieve that level of insanity
2
 
Herb gave a talk about this at ACCU but asked to not share the talk online :/
maybe it will be uploaded at some point
 
if you read through the lines it’s a way to introduce interface without it being either a keyword or even a feature altogether
 
yeah
he also said it could be used as a formal language specification tool
he gave a sample definition of a C#-like interface, about 20 lines of code
and compared it to the ~10 pages of C# language specification
 
Ven
it's in the aforelinked paper
 
or as a way to instantiate design patterns
 
Ven
9:25 AM
and I replicated bits in my godbolt link
$class x {
 // for each function, create a no-op overload with an extra “int” parameter
 constexpr {
 for (auto f : $x.functions())
 -> { void (f$)( f$, int ) { } }
 }
};
I'm interested in this exemple: wtf is f$? is the compiler just SUPPOSED TO KNOW what part you slice in?
that's not gonna work.
 
I don't remember, I think he did explain that to some extent, or Louis did
 
Ven
it's very very interesting
 
yeah
you can also have templated metaclasses
 
Ven
lol
and concepted metaclasses! :
 
property<int> was another example
 
Ven
it's really interesting how they're gonna do metaclasses inheritance
because you want some things to be delayed until the end of the children
 
@Ven hang on, are you using your experience? that’s cheating! only NIH allowed!
 
Ven
nih funded steel beams melting.
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow IME it's either ivory tower or shithole. Why escape?
 
as much as it hurts me to defend it I guess there’s a precedent though, where ' or `and , mirror each other
 
Ven
9:36 AM
@LucDanton i'm not sure what you're referring to
 
prefix-$ to quote, postfix-$ to splice
 
Ven
no that's not the part that bugs me. I mean it's weird, but sure whatever
 
what does "splice" mean here?
 
@AndyProwl the opposite of reflecting
too tired to explain
 
Ven
the part that bugs me is that they write void (f$)(f$, int){} and not e.g. void (f$.name)(f$.signature..., int){}
@AndyProwl -> {} is a (synthetic => compiler generator) AST fragment. splicing means inserting parts from "outside"
 
9:40 AM
@Ven I tried some things on my end and e.g. member.type$ member.name$; did seem to do what you’d expect
 
Ven
(that you pre-generated, that were given to you, etc)
 
@Ven thanks
maybe in those contexts .name and .signature are implied as the only thing that makes sense
 
I think implicitly splicing back to the name/identifier appears in other places so perhaps they expect that as a default
that overload example is still super suspect though
oh, also the $ syntax is supposed to be nice sugar from the get-go. the actual semantics (at least for quoting) are in terms of __reflect_expr etc. intrinsics
also the actual reflection paper has instances of splicing with prefix $, I don’t think they know what they are doing
 
9:56 AM
xD
 
Ven
exactly what i said
$class final {
 final.can_derive = false; // can’t derive from this
}; // from the paper
that should be $class final { constexpr { $final.can_derive = false; } }
oh well. it's not here before C++23 anyway
 
10:13 AM
:p
 
Ven
if (find_if(value.functions(), [](auto x){ return x.is_default_ctor(); }) != value.functions().end())
 -> { basic_value() = default; }
that should be ==
 
@AndyProwl oh right, we can always go with string interpolation for an analogy (they don’t call it quoting for nothing). using Python syntax, think of "foo={foo}": the first use is quoted, the {foo} bit splices back the actual value of foo into the quotation. demo
 
Ven
@LucDanton that'd be more akin to macros, however
 
@Ven well, that’s what the proposal strives to be. but imperative
 
Ven
no, the proposal doesn't want "text". it wants AST
 
10:18 AM
same difference?
 
Ven
as explicited by their void (f$)(f$,int){} – without actually parsing that text, you can't know what to put there
 
I get that by going with formatted strings as an analogy we mention text, but the analogy is about levels of quotations (and splicing) not text
 
Ven
it's lisp macros vs c macros
 
I’m not saying it’s a text processing system lol
 
The number of examples in the proposal is huge.
 
Ven
10:19 AM
well you can compare it to python's formatting which is a text process, I jumped a bit too fast, sorry
@Morwenn and that's good
The bad thing is that every single example is slightly broken. But then, hey, it's a C++ proposal.
 
@Ven incidentally that looks exactly like splicing something else entirely, more or less decltype(*this).can_derive = false;!
oh sorry it’s not a splice
urg I’ve had enough I feel sick already
 
Ven
macros can do that to you yes
template<basic_enum E> // constrained to enum types
string to_string(E e) {
 switch (value) {
 constexpr {
 for (const auto o : $E.variables())
 if (!o.default_value.empty())
 -> { case o.default_value()$: return E::(o.name())$; }
 }
 }
}
I fucking hate PDFs, btw.
so, okay, I understand that proposal.
 
@Ven I botched it though. I was thinking actual interpolation (i.e. arbitrary code in splices), went to Python for familiarity, but forgot that it’s f-strings I should have picked e.g. f"foo={len('foo')}"
 
Ven
@LucDanton I think it's p much the same – still text based
 
as long as you ignore the actual code
so, no
 
Ven
10:30 AM
foo= has no semantic meaning
 
neither does quoted code, it’s just that
 
Ven
yes, quoted code has AST structure
that's how the compiler knows it needs to splice in f$ as the name, or f$ as the parameters, how to keep hygiene, etc.
 
@Ven the string interpolation has that as well
 
Ven
how does it have that?
 
the {} are not literal but delimit the splice, and inside the splice the '' delimit another quote
hygiene is e.g. thinking how you (as the quote author) relate the result of a splice to the rest of the quote
@Ven the structure of my particular (string) quote is the foo=something part
I wasn’t joking when I said that’s why they call it quoting
anyhoo I guess I won’t use string interpolation as an analogue in the future
 
Ven
10:39 AM
I see what you mean with that string example, but I'm more interested in the introspectability part.
f"" generates string, not ASTs
but yeah it's another property not linked to splicing, my bad.
I wonder how this proposal will let us use [[attrs]]
...and, on a totally unrelated note, I wonder what become of the clang prototype that tracked locks via [[attributes]]
 
I fear that reflection might break the rule "every attribute can be ignored and the program should still work" :/
 
Ven
that's a rule?
 
It's a rule. Let me find the paper.
 
@Rerito didn't know you lived in Turkey
 
live in turkey ... like a bird lice?
 
10:52 AM
> All attributes unknown to an implementation are ignored without causing an error. (since C++17)
 
Ven
ah. i'm not talking about that rule
 
The wording is pretty muc the same in the standard itself.
 
Ven
i think that's a misinterpretation
 
user1804599
11:16 AM
lol the first talk on boostcon is about rust
 
user1804599
reminds me of djangocon, where the closing keynote is by an outsider telling them what django is all doing wrong
 
Ven
i think it's a good thing
but people here didn't like it much
 
user1804599
yeah it's a good idea
 
user1804599
no safe spacing bullshit
 
user1804599
11:39 AM
I think I'm gonna install clang.
 
user1804599
Yay it works.
 
user1804599
Oh also C++17 support probably
 
Ven
install the cppx branch
 
user1804599
woo
 
user1804599
-std=c++1z
 
user1804599
11:44 AM
namespace sb::net { ... } <3
 
user1804599
and these diagnostic :O
 
Ven
:O
 
user1804599
Where can I find a list of C++17 features?
 
user1804599
C++17 (or C++1z) is the informal name for the next revision of the ISO/IEC standard for the C++ programming language. The C++17 specification reached the Draft International Standard stage in March 2017, and is not expected to undergo any major changes before publication of the final standard later in the year. == Expected features == === Language === Making the text message for static_assert optional Removal of trigraphs Allow typename (as an alternative to class) in a template template parameter New rules for auto deduction from braced-init-list Nested namespace definitions, e.g., namespace X:...
 
user1804599
ooh string_view but that's a library feautre I don't think I have it
 
user1804599
11:46 AM
Oh libc++ ships with clang cool
 
I doubt it's a complete list, looks like only major changes
 
user1804599
boost wasn't built with libc++ though so I can't really use it unless I reinstall boost
 
@rightfold I've not become fonder of clang diags. GCC is at least on par, and (perhaps because I'm more used to it) slightly easier to navigate - maybe
@rightfold Get on FreeBSD you noob
 
user1804599
lol std::byte
 
11:50 AM
It uses clang + libc++ natively AFAIK, and the packaged versions of boost consequently also use it
 
user1804599
so does OS X
 
user1804599
might as well get that
 
12:04 PM
if a PC is connected to the internet, it's possible to expose its shell, right?
 
user1804599
sshd
 
that assumes it's reachable; it's not
I believe this is called a reverse shell
so e.g. a machine can initiate a connection to a given IP every n minutes
 
12:17 PM
@BartekBanachewicz teleconsole.com, or simply autossh with a remote forwarding (-R)
@BartekBanachewicz that's an awesomely bad way to ask. Because you're simply describing a security vulnerability. The general-purpose answer to the question-as-posed should of course be "no"
@BartekBanachewicz reachable != directly addressable != routable
 
@sehe yes, but didn't I use the correct word there?
@sehe oh I didn't mean maliciously - of course the question should be "if it's connected to the internet, it's possible to set up a shell to it"
regardless of whether it's addressable or not
 
I don't think. Anyway, you weren't clear about what you wanted. "If I have a machine without a public IP, how can I still accept incoming connections over the internet"
@BartekBanachewicz That's still upside down. Because the answer should still be "NO!!!!!".
 
> Is it possible to allow remote access?
 
12:22 PM
Hey. I put the helpful bit up-front. Your choice what you respond to first :)
I believe "in the old days" they had utilities called corkscrew to automate things, but I'm usually very happy just dropping autossh ... in /etc/rc.local. You can go full nion routing and expose a Tor service :)
 
apparently teleconsole cannot establish an ssh tunnel
oh it worked
@sehe Isn't Tor just for HTTP?
 
httptunnel :)
 
woah, it works
 
@BartekBanachewicz it's like teamviewer but for terminals. I like it for "support" type of tasks
 
@sehe I didn't mean exactly that but I'd rather not discuss that in an open setting
 
12:27 PM
Oh no need to clarify. I've tunneled the hell out of things. Just not when I was with NATO
 
it's fun that it actually "writes" in the shell on the other side
 
It's a shared terminal. Like tmux/screen can do
It's literally like teamviewer, functionally. Technically it's more like a shadowed RDP session
 
12:42 PM
@sehe it wouldn't hurt TV if it had console support anyway
 
 
1 hour later…
1:46 PM
so ... will Java outlive Android popularity?
I know how bad it sound, but I would rather keep my limited brain power to learning something else more useful
 
the JVM is pretty popular in other places than mobile
 
I know
 
it's just not usually called java then
 
Now that Kotlin is officially supported on Android I suppose a lot of people will move to it anyway
 
Ven
hopefully
I'll stick to ghcvm : ^)
 
user1804599
1:59 PM
Java PureScript backend please.
 
Ven
GHCVM isn't that bad.
 
user1804599
Neither is PureScript.
 
user1804599
gah reddit is down
 

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