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00:02
@JerryCoffin There are some similar stories: snopes.com/college/homework/unsolvable.asp
@CaptainGiraffe ophe, if memory serves. In any case, it's true that there are a lot better to be found. At the same time, there are a lot that are trying to show how to use synchronization primitives correctly, but to do that split up the work in inefficient ways, specifically so synchronization will be required on a regular basis--but in real design, one of the primary goals is to eliminate synchronization as much as possible.
@JerryCoffin Amdahl's Law and whatnot right?
(however thats spelled)
00:25
My professor asked me: Can you produce a quote for a 1,000 TB server, so I can budget it in the proposal. whats a good number?
Anybody built one these things before?
00:42
@sbi I meant more "what attitude is that" or something
"truly awful" varies from person to person
e.g for rightfold, any code with side effects qualifies as "truly awful"
C++14 with side effects, if you can even imagine that
> Well, actually C# itself is not something compile-able or non-compile-able but simply a syntactical set of rules, and it all boils down to implementing an interpreter under Linux.
What happened to the run-time compilation/ C++ JIT projects?
01:14
@Borgleader "and whatnot" covers a lot of ground. But, yes, at least sort of. Problem is that Amdahl's law (as originally stated) appears to have been modeled around the idea of having a few processors, and doing little or no modification on the workload, so it was oriented heavily toward how to get maximum bang for minimal investment (in a market where clock speeds were already doubling every ~18 months or so).
The current situation is rather different. Clock speeds haven't changed significantly for years, but massive parallelism (e.g., on the GPU) is widely and easily available. For the right tasks, you can easily plan on 100x (or more) improvements (and those are likely to translate better into the future too).
For what it's worth, Gustafson's law often gives a lot more realistic view of the effect of parallel execution on latency vs. task size.
@Mysticial Q.Q You're right. Lots of B and C anime this year. I've got my eye on Luger Code, and Saiki Kusuo no Sai-Nan is a reasonably funny 4-koma comedy
But I enjoy anime in general regardless of quality. Even if I come off as a critic sometimes. One of my favourites was Asura Cryin' and that one is an absolute mess
@JerryCoffin How do you use threads efficiently? As far as my knowledge goes, it seems the general approach is to avoid sharing state -- to model the system as independent processes
01:37
@Aaron3468 Certainly giving each thread independent state where possible is a good start. When you absolutely have to do synchronization, you usually want to "hide" it by (for example) shoving data through a thread-safe queue (where the queue itself synchronizes pushes/pops, so the rest of the code doesn't need to mess with it). From a practical viewpoint, there's little in the way of a single clean answer though.
Just saying: "don't use shared state" basically means that a fair number of things just can't be executed in parallel at all. So, what you do in a lot of cases is figure out ways to minimize the amount of state that needs to be shared, ways to defer actually sharing the state as long as possible, and so on.
So the challenge is finding thread-safe ways to update the state other threads get, as well as trying to reduce their dependence on shared state. I like the idea of a thread-safe queue. I suppose no matter how difficult global/shared state can be, some state shouldn't be anything except global/shared. I can see why multithreading is one of the more difficult design challenges
> Alstom: l'État commandera 16 TGV pour des lignes à petite vitesse
des TPGV en quelque sorte @PatrickM'Bongo
01:52
@Aaron3468 So, an example of state sharing is when you're needing to share a large memory buffer. In my application, the buffer is controlled by an OEM vendor's SDK (has custom alloc functions). When something goes wrong I need to synchronize my program to call these functions to rebuild the buffer. When I'm rebuilding the buffer I need to make sure nothing else is using those memory locations.
The typical solution for correct code is to do deep copies, but then I can't do the 100+ FPS I need...
I'm trying to figure out how to set up this language document with the specification.
@Mikhail That sounds like an interesting challenge. What solution did you find? One master copy and then a few iterations of local copies?
In a lot of cases, it's also somewhat challenging to avoid sharing state, even when it seems unavoidable. For example, consider what happens with allocating memory. If you start with a single heap allocator, that can quickly become a choke point. So, you change to a separate allocator for each thread--but then if you allocate in one thread, and free in the other, you synchronize between those threads when freeing that block.
Thats why I allocate memory once in my program, and never again :-)
02:10
You can avoid that as well though, by giving each allocator a number of free lists. To keep contention to a minimum, each allocator has a separate free list for every other thread, so each thread can always free a block for allocated in any other thread without contention (or at least with extremely minimal contention). Since you're just adding a node to (typically) a linked list, you can (with a little care) add a block with a single atomic swap.
Why does allocating memory take time? Certainly assigning a pointer shouldn't take too long? Is the instruction to reserve a page really computationally intensive? If I use huge pages, will malloc go huge-ly faster?
Each allocator only looks at free lists when its run out of free memory, and needs to reclaim the memory that's free. That's usually fairly rare, and when it does need to do so, it also just does an atomic swap (grabs the current head of the list, puts a null into the current head of list). So, while contention is theoretically possible, it's rare enough that it's rarely an issue.
I see, so you got a level of indirection so you don't actually call free()/malloc(). The real question is, why is malloc expensive?
@Mikhail It doesn't have to be terribly expensive (but usually is, at least to some degree). Most of it comes down to one simple fact: the OS is going to do its best to see that all physical memory is always occupied by something; the more data it caches, the more chance there is of a cache hit (and disks are so slow compared to RAM that anything it saves that way is hugely rewarded). That means almost anything you allocate requires finding something else to throw away.
Now, the OS will usually have a list of basically evicted pages, so it can still put them to use if their data is requested, but they're the first choices to be dumped if RAM is needed. Nonetheless, modifying their state from "evicted' to "allocated by process X" usually requires a switch to kernel mode, which means saving and restoring machine state.
Talking to the OS usually isn't fast because the OS talks to many different things at once. It's a bit like a synchronization point; you want to defer it as long as possible. But I'm oversimplifying I imagine.
02:26
Takes me longer & longer to load this page ... thanks to China's national intranet
Inside single processes, a big problem is outdated heap managers. Many are oriented toward maximizing available memory (which was good when we had less memory). Now, they should probably think more in terms of minimizing work. For one example, consider coalescing free blocks. At one time, heap managers religiously searched the free list and coalesced free blocks every time you freed something. Now, it makes more sense to defer that as long as possible.
@Telkitty Sshh, it'll get slower if their automation detects you saying that ;)
I'm wondering what would happen if I compared performance of some algorithm that used 10 million singles, and compared the version that reallocates the destination to a version that reuses the destination buffer. Would it be 30% overhead, or 10% overhead...
@JerryCoffin So hardware's been changing significantly faster than low-level code can keep up?
@LucDanton j'imagine qu'ils sont à court d'idées pour sauver le navire
02:30
t’as rien compris c’est une histoire de train, tu planes ou quoi
Does anyone have LaTeX templates for technical specifications?
Damn.
The Old C Manual looks like shit compared to the stuff typeset today.
@ThePhD For your project after this, you should use LePix to make a new typesetting markdown. LaTeX is beginning to show some age, but it's still so beautiful
@Aaron3468 it's literally not possible to load this page from my macbook
I am using my phone ...
@Telkitty you should revolt
@Aaron3468 pls
02:39
@ProblemSlover so far so good - learning to live without car & internet but with 50 times more people per square meter
@Mikhail can't ... too much people pressure per square meter ...
@Telkitty Did you move, or are you there on a temporary basis?
Only for 3 weeks
Back to Sydney in 5 days time
Make sure to fake a clinical trial: sciencealert.com/…
The fun part is that primate testing is being phase out in the US, so you can order a test in China - 100% satisfaction guaranteed.
Oh, that's not too bad. I hear it's a nice place to be once you've adjusted, particularly light on the pocketbook, but I've never been there. When I have more money I'll check out a bit more of the world. If you ever come to Canada, Jasper is a beautiful place to stay for a few days :)
> In light of the findings [that 80% of Chinese clinical trials were fraudulent], 80 percent of current drug applications, which were awaiting approval for mass production, have now been cancelled.
Haha, I'm not sure if that's really bad policy or if that's just how they generated the statistic of fraudulent trials. I'd be amused if they said "Well, 80% of these are fake, so let's roll dice to figure out which applications we'll cancel :3"
02:57
Criminy.
I'll just commit a skeleton without a good template.
Jesus, LaTeX.
I spent 5 minutes writing a mathematical solution, and 5 hours learning to typeset a numberline with LaTeX. It would have been significantly easier if I'd used python instead of counter/macro magic. I feel your pain
03:15
@Aaron3468 Sort of, anyway, yeah. As far as C++ goes, there's rarely a lot of pressure to improve--few people use dynamic allocation very heavily to start with, and when they do it's relatively easy to plug in a specialized allocator where needed. So vendors probably don't have a lot of motivation to spend huge amounts of effort in improving them.
@Mikhail She's already revolting (sorry, just couldn't resist).
@Telkitty Without car? Sounds healthie. you may have to walk more :P
@JerryCoffin That's fair enough. Just about everybody argues to have performance and features they probably won't use. And those who need them usually have a good idea of how to meet their needs
03:41
@Mikhail I think I detect a bias in the website you linked, but it still poses some interesting hypotheses like this one. However, it is implied that the same incentive to be sensationalist is applicable to journalism, of which the website appears to be part of :)
@JerryCoffin I've seen a lot of C++ written as if it were Java
Hello, Cruel World.
03:57
Hiiiyo.
It's NFA / DFA / CFG time in the compiler class.
Which is fine enough.
@PatrickM'Bongo Oh, of course--some people will get terrible performance no matter what you do or how good of tools you give them.
@ThePhD Always fun.
@JerryCoffin I mean, it's not like we actually get to employ it. We do a bunch of handwritten assignments for it, and then get promptly told: "Yeah don't bother actually applying it just go do some yacc".
@PatrickM'Bongo I used to be a big offender of that until I began learning python. Now I pretty much only use objects when safety is a significantly bigger factor than performance. I rarely need to reuse my code to the point objects are justified and it's relatively easy to copy-paste-debug-test from it when I do.
@ThePhD Personally, I think that's at least halfway fair. I've always been fine with taking advantage of existing code--but also felt that I should (by very strong preference) know enough to duplicate it if I really needed to. I've carried through with that to extremes some would find at least mildly insane. I've gone as far as implementing a reasonably complete, albeit small and simple, CPU in VHDL--but a CPU shouldn't just be magic, and yacc shouldn't either.
I've noticed as I acquire skill, it's significantly less of a cost to trash bad code and start again. When I began it was pretty much necessary to use objects and strict unit testing or be debugging for hours
04:06
You made a CPU in VHDL?
Goodness gracious, bless your soul.
Projects like those are excellent conversation starters for job interviews :D
@ThePhD Yup. When I started I was thinking of making it a faithful reproduction of a 6502, but decided I didn't like the 6502 quite well enough to follow it accurately, so I ended up with something closer to what I wished the 6502 would have been (which probably wouldn't have been practical at all at the time, but was fairly simple in an FPGA).
Truth to tell, it was probably closer to a PDP-11 than a 6502 when all was said and done, but didn't really follow that entirely accurately either. For example, it had a dedicated stack pointer, where the PDP-11 could use any register as its stack pointer (but everybody used R6).
@Aaron3468 As I recall, the one time I mentioned it, the interviewer seemed to think it indicated more about insanity than brilliance (I didn't get the job anyway).
04:23
@JerryCoffin I thought insanity was part of the job description for any programming position :')
04:38
Which other features did you put into it?
04:59
@JerryCoffin IIRC the common pretext is "testability".
 
1 hour later…
Sam
Sam
06:07
Good morning guys!
Ven
Ven
06:37
Hi
 
1 hour later…
07:45
Morning
@Aaron3468 Insanity isn't a requirement to work as a programmer--but it sure helps!
Speaking of insanity, how 'bout a ridiculously detailed answer to a mediocre question?
0
A: Algorithm for color picker

Jerry CoffinI believe this is intended to follow the hue-saturation-brightness model (or something close to it like hue-saturation-value, anyway). With HSB, it's usually easiest to think of colors as a cylinder. The Hue represents a rotation around the circle. Saturation is the position along the axis of th...

Very comprehensive, definitely points me in the right direction. Any example of how this color picker might differ in appearance under a bi-conic model? — Dalton Sandbothe 2 hours ago
Ungrateful sonuvabitch
@набиячлэвэли ...and could you just code that up for me too, while your at it? :-)
Am I the only one focusing on the fact someone named Dalton asks about colors?
@Rerito Guess I'm not seeing the connection, but maybe I'm just too tired to think straight. Speaking of which, I'd better get to bed. I need to get up in only about 5 hours...
07:59
Oh... Sorry I thought the translation was about the same in english: a color-blind person is a "daltonien" in french
@JerryCoffin aw man, that has the potential to be a good question.
@Rerito Ah, makes much more sense now. But no, I've never heard the term used in English.
@edition Yeah, I think the general idea of the question is actually quite useful (thus bothering with such an elaborate answer). It is asked somewhat poorly though.
it’s a double-edged in that the term 'colour-blind' seems to mislead people as to what exactly those conditions entail, but otoh not all form of colour-blindness are Daltonism proper
@LucDanton I knew I could count on you #language-lawyer
@Rerito to his friends he was known as Luc Dalton
a fact also only known to his friends
08:13
Of which he'd none, much like Luc Danton himself
Who's ready to mingle?
Very well then
@GillBates At this moment Harry knew he had to act...
you're a wizard
Ven
Ven
08:19
Hi
@R.MartinhoFernandes gross
08:50
TIL about std::hardware_destructive_interference_size http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/thread/hardware_destructive_interference_size
me too
user1804599
@GillBates dat pair of wizards
user1804599
Hillary Clinton on Assange "Can't we just drone this guy" -- report http://truepundit.com/under-intense-pressure-to-silence-wikileaks-secretary-of-state-hillary-clinton-proposed-drone-strike-on-julian-assange/ https://t.co/qy2EQBa48y
user1804599
dat death threat
Assange isn't doing very much good recently though.
nuke that guy would be sound so badass lol
user1804599
09:00
Don't kill people who expose bad practices.
Can't remember the last thing he did right. vOv
09:18
Not a reason to drone someone
@rightfold such a verb
it's like "We cannot icepick Trotsky"
cppreference.com is not an ISO Standard document — Lightness Races in Orbit 17 mins ago
user1804599
146
Q: Religious supervisor wants to thank god in the acknowledgements

je_bMy PhD supervisor and I are co-authoring a paper. We have an excellent relation, and he is both a well-regarded scientist in its field and a deeply religious person. In our co-authored paper, he wants to include, for the first time in his career, a perfunctory thanks to God in the acknowledgement...

user1804599
12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890‌​123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901‌​2345678901 is prime lol
@rightfold OMG. Damn religinuts. :(
user1804599
This thread is one big bikeshed.
user1804599
y u no lock
Ven
Ven
I left the LS team several months ago.
user1804599
olol
Ven
Ven
as written on this page
which explains why they still havn't readied the changelog for 1.5 (and updated the website). Which was released 3-4 months ago.
Which, really, is the reason I left this mess.
user1804599
09:36
kek isiahmeadows
Ven
Ven
vOv
user1804599
git lisp
Ven
Ven
I wish there was a good lisp-to-js :/
"use clojurescript lul"
user1804599
ClojureScript is awful.
user1804599
Hmm, clang lexer is only 3691 lines
Ven
Ven
09:39
because lexing lisp code is :hard:
user1804599
oh no, it's much longer
user1804599
it's 23 files
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz lol orphan instances
user1804599
git purescript
09:40
is purescript usable?
user1804599
absolutely
maybe I should write something in it
user1804599
I want to make this faster.
Ven
Ven
It's so usable Rightfold even finished a project with it.
09:42
> Bindings also exist for libraries such as React and Virtual DOM.
@BartekBanachewicz lol
user1804599
if ('value0' in element) { filthy isJust in FFI code
@Griwes the most lol ITT is "Reach out—politely and constructively!—to the library maintainers. "
Ven
Ven
@rightfold I saw that :[
@rightfold you have a bug
user1804599
09:44
where
user1804599
doesn't matter
user1804599
there won't be a " to end the string, so it'll return Nothing anyway
Ven
Ven
good thing it's not a language with UB
:D
user1804599
charAt returns '' on out of range
09:45
import Control.Monad.Eff.Console
aww
it's called "Eff"
so fluffy
user1804599
there's Aff too
user1804599
for async effects
user1804599
that's even flyffier
Ven
Ven
Arf
user1804599
there's also IO which can do any effects (it has no effect row) for when you're super lazy
09:47
vagrant@vagrant-cassandra-1:~$ service cassandra status
 * could not access pidfile for Cassandra
sigh
there goes another day
user1804599
@Ven I have an idea; maybe List.fromFoldable given an array, is faster than first consing stuff and then List.reverse
user1804599
or just pushing onto an array, then reverse iterate and cons
Ven
Ven
@rightfold reverse is always slow
user1804599
yes I'm gonna try this
Ven
Ven
Wow pursuit sucks
user1804599
09:50
Pursuit is nice. Only the type search is broken, but they're fixing that.
Ven
Ven
ah, good
user1804599
lol unsafe-coerce got upgraded
user1804599
@Ven vOv
user1804599
I was thinking of adding a binary format too.
user1804599
with varints
user1804599
09:53
and hookers
Wait, that makes no sense.
user1804599
<> is append from Semigroup
user1804599
Generalization of ++.
user1804599
@Ven cheap tell :D
11:17
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, at least they got most of the boost stuff out of there. Some of it looks gnarly though.... also as a side question, isn't std::to_string something that isn't available in one of nonius's supported versions because GCC is a doof (4.9.x /cc @Rapptz) ?
Oh wait, no it's not. It's a GCC 4.8.x problem specifically: stackoverflow.com/a/12975602/5280922
I think Nonius only goes back as far as 4.9.5, so that's covered.
@Puppy I thought you had a job for quite some time now. Have you quit the previous one?
11:43
@milleniumbug What the hell is going on in that comment thread. @_@
@ThePhD lounged
we're already memeing it hard on discord
I'm choosing euthanasia etd 1pm. I have no last words.
6
@Ven lies
no project ever is finished
you can only approach the finish line
but never cross it
it's an asymptote
Ven
Ven
cool story mate
@milleniumbug which thread?
user1804599
hmm, chocolate with sea salt
Ven
Ven
Oh, right
user1804599
@orlp RIP
Ven
Ven
RIP indeed.
user1804599
thank you for nice transport protocols
user1804599
@sehe geluksvloeitje?
12:06
@orlp Wait, is that real?
@ThePhD yes
What is he undergoing euthanasia for?
@ThePhD missing a comma there?
I a word actually.
cancer
12:07
Oh. That's rough.
inb4 flag to a factual response
and it'd get me muted too, cuz fuck context
That's a huge bummer. =/
Ven
Ven
@ThePhD hintjens.com/blog:123 and al
> Please be informed that the Japan Office will be closed on October 10 (Mon) due to Japanese National Holiday "Sports Day."
just one day so you don’t have to for the rest of the year, it’s a clever scheme
Ell
Ell
12:14
@orlp which country is he in? o.O
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Taiiku no Hi
Doesn't make it sound any less silly.
tfw using the C++ standard as inspiration for my own language
Where did I go wrong.
@ThePhD at "C++"
Ven
Ven
@Ell belgium
12:17
@ThePhD at "standard"
Ven
Ven
@ThePhD at C++
@ThePhD at "my own language"
@ThePhD Everywhere.
@milleniumbug no
user1804599
@ThePhD dontdontdontdontodnt
user1804599
12:18
forget C++
user1804599
pretend it doesn't exist
if you cut out 'my own language'
you get
tfw using the C++ standard as inspiration for
and that's still wrong
@orlp that was a list of things
@rightfold I'm trying to write the manual though. :<
Or at least, set up a skeleton for it.
"C++", "standard", "my own language"
user1804599
12:19
C++ is the materialization of Murphy's law.
@orlp man that's bitter
Ven
Ven
@orlp beautiful
OCaml Modules are a weird way to deal with namespacing / scoping...
I don't like it.
Ven
Ven
:]
What? u.u
The way they handle state and stuff is weird!!
Especially record names.
Ven
Ven
12:29
record names are pretty unrelated to modules
12:50
Does the C++ standard have a notion of a "compiler" ?
Or does it just describe the desired runtime...?
> Architecture is a fallacy. Only by incremental change with a large 'diverse' group can you solve problems. Like an ants' nest.
Ants don't work that way.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Japan has "silly" holidays (or special days) for virtually everything
@PatrickM'Bongo I've noticed.
Mountain's day. Wind's day. Ocean's day.
Do they have rice day I wonder
> Please be informed that the Japan Office will be closed on July 18 (Mon) due to Japanese National Holiday "Marine Day."
> Please be informed that the Japan Office will be closed on August 11 (Thu) due to Japanese National Holiday "Mountain Day."
12:54
> Please be informed that the Japan Office will be closed on (...) September 19 (Mon) due to Japanese National Holiday "Respect for the Aged Day."
> September 22 (Thu) - Japanese National Holiday "Autumn Equinox"
Jesus fuck, I didn't realize it was that often until I grepped my emails.
There's also greenery day
Coming of age day
@Puppy have you seen patch 3.7?
clang is already at 3.9 you silly
@orlp lol
@ThePhD ahahahahhahaha
I mean maybe we all got him wrong
maybe he wants to use C++ standard as an inspiration of what to not do
because in this case there's actually a lot to learn from
@R.MartinhoFernandes At least they give their holidays pretty names.. Our London office gets closed for the English Holiday "Late summer bank holiday"
12:59
> Dear Worldwide Colleagues,

We apologize for multiple emails.

Please be informed that the Japan Office will be closed on the following days:
(...)
After three separate emails for different days, they sent a summary as well.

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