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Ell
Ell
19:00
@Morwenn it's lazy learning though right
not that I don't do it :P
My biggest issue is that I'm now in the position to have to spend many hours to become proficient at something that should just work, time that I could be spending learning FE development or something that will actually advance my career.
You know what would be funny? If Trump lost the elections and next Men in Black would have him cameo as some sort of alien. :)
And in 5 years, I'll have to do it again, because something else will be the new hotness.
That's the single most aggravating thing about our profession. I have nothing against learning new things (I actually like doing so), but throwaway learning is pointless.
Ell
Ell
idk, git has been here for a long time
it's not like RoR or AngularJS
Also, learning git doesn't just teach you git
it teaches you DVCSs
of which there are many
well, at least 3 that I can name off the top of my head
Jazz being the worst one I've used to date.
Ell
Ell
19:05
never heard of it o.O
There's probably good reasons why.
Excellent then. You haven't totally wasted your time :D
It's some IBM thingy.
@RobertHarvey Yes--it's still heavily oriented toward "click this button to produce that command". With a truly visual tool, I could do things like drag a line representing a branch onto another line, and it would do that merge (but no, at least as far as I know, no such tool currently exists, at least for Git repos).
19:07
Interesting. We use the last one, meschugge, as well but with Czech spelling mešuge.
@Morwenn You are lucky. :)
@wilx Not to use it anymore? Yeah, I think so.
We're using Git at work and I'm fairly happy with it.
And I'm a happy fairy with it.
@Morwenn No. You are lucky that Jazz/RTC is the worst that you have used. :)
19:21
IBM Jazz notable users: IBM.
Ell
Ell
lol
19:41
@Ell Well, sort of. Yes, some of what people (need to) learn about Git is the basic concepts of DVCSs. There's also, however, a fair amount that's basically unique to Git, with little or no applicability to somebody using, for example, Mercurial (e.g., one of the first things that confuses many git users is adding files to the index, which has no equivalent in Hg).
Ell
Ell
I remember xeo being confused about that
Hello all :)
I need help here please :)
return res; -- This is undefined behavior. Once this is done, It's all bets off as to what can happen. — PaulMcKenzie 8 mins ago
I'm quite new to C++ so I don't understand what the problem is
-1
Q: Insertion in a binary tree [C++]

KikusI'm trying to implement a simple insertion in a binary tree using C++. Here is my code: typedef struct node { int data; node * left; node * right; }node; node* insert(node* root, int value) { queue<node*> q; q.push(root); node newNode; newNode.data = value; newNode...

Ell
Ell
@Kikus you are returning a pointer to a local variable
Yes I was told that
@Ell But this return statement is not reached in the example I mentionned in my post
Ell
Ell
int* bad() {
    int x = 10;
    return &x;
}
this is bad
19:44
That's why I'm lost ><
@Kikus that's why it's posted as a comment, and not as an answer
Ell
Ell
@Kikus try putting a printf before the return
and see if it ever fires
@milleniumbug And that's why I'm still asking x)
nobody here cares; if they cared, they'd answer your SO there
not here
don't spam your question here
Ell
Ell
meh it's okay
19:46
><
Ell
Ell
@Kikus let us move to the other room
this is not a place to drop questions
@Ell Ok, which one?
Ell
Ell

C++ Questions and Answers

Solve problems and approach solutions. Just ask and lurkers wi...
@Kikus Have you looked through (the answers to) the dozens (probably hundreds) of questions about how to implement a BST in C++? Backing up a step, is there a reason you can't use something like std::map or std::set?
I wonder why my vote didn't close it.
Also, the current standard close reasons imply that questions asking to debug your code are ok if they contain expected output, etc.
Gee, SO is really going to shit.
19:59
/devilsadvocate from another point of view, it does feature a desired output, what is being done and what might be an mcve. doesn't it?
nwp
nwp
Hasn't SO been going to shit for years? I wonder if it is more serious now or the same old everything used to be better.
I never noticed it being more shit than before. I must be too young.
I have to admit I mostly use SO for the chat.
And only the chat.
Using it is an interesting choice of words there :)
20:12
@R.MartinhoFernandes In a way, that is just "expected outcome, actual outcome" kind of "can someone explain this" question. It has always been ok. Perhaps, rarely useful
but I think it's fair to accept that 80% of the questions on SO turn out to not be useful to anyone else. It's that 20% that makes the site worthwhile
623
Q: Can a local variable's memory be accessed outside its scope?

Avraham ShukronI have the following code. int * foo() { int a = 5; return &a; } int main() { int* p = foo(); cout << *p; *p = 8; cout << *p; } And the code is just running with no runtime exceptions! The output was 58 How can it be? Isn't the memory of a local variable inaccessible...

/cc @Ell
Ell
Ell
thanks
I got tired though >.<
I thought I had the energy
@Ell Rule 1 of martial arts: energy conservation
We don't explain things a hundred times over. That's why chat is bad for this kind of question. And SO excels because it has the answer already
@Morwenn I never noticed it being more shit than before. I must be too old.
20:27
I never noticed it being more shit.
WTF FUCKING FUCK IS THAT?!
I sort of like EU but this is fucking insane.
Ell
Ell
I think quotas as pretty bad
but meh politics
I think quotas are a fine way of ensuring base lines.
It's not the goal. It's a way to avoid imbalance.
Quotas are insane.
Doesn't matter whether we're talking fishing quotas or energy consumption quotas here
@wilx They're clearly not.
20:31
@sehe In this case they clearly are.
Women simply do not enter politics that much.
So. Fix your statements and I might revise my response.
@wilx And that's a questionable situation. It's perfectly fine if people want to see that change. Actually, we're seeing it change on a large scale and the results aren't shocking, so I'm not opposed.
@sehe Quotas like that, much like affirmative action for university entries in USA, are actually removing equality and advantage/disadvantage people just based on their gender.
The baseline is clearly what it is because women simply do not enter politics.
So. That's just a fact. An apparent fact.
It's fine for you because you like the status quo.
With the current fair and level playing field, they choose not to compete. Quotas would make the playing field unfair.
Your sources must be pretty impressive.
20:39
@sehe I cannot demonstrate non-existence of barriers. But I am sure you are just waiting for the cue and will provide even more impressive sources for evidence of such barriers, if they exist. :)
Politics is an area where nepotism and favoritism runs rampant. Quotas would help there.
Ell
Ell
I like this song kinda
@Abyx what makes it a joke?
The thing is hiring should be based on competences. Sad thing is it's hard to completely remove bias from hiring procedure. Hence the hard limit, but this can lead to people being hired not necessarily because they have the competence, but because they were at the right place at the right time. Which, is also what happens now, for men. ugh...
There's certainly quite a bit of data to indicate that many people hesitate to join groups of people where they're substantially different from the current population so if you want equality, you frequently need to "push" the balance in the opposite direction for a while to produce a group into which a wider range of people feel more chance that they can fit.
Ell
Ell
20:42
@sehe I guess that he was saying it to somebody who everybody knew knows about gpus
@FélixGagnon-Grenier I think it is abundantly clear that without the quota the hiring process doesn't go by competence to begin with
> Which, is also what happens now, for men. ugh...
yeah, that's what I was trying to say
@Ell if so, that would be an in-joke. It's a bit awkward when in-jokes go public. So someone screwed up
Politics. Competence. Fair.
Pick as many as you're allowed to.
@EtiennedeMartel What nepotism and favourism? In this country there are more women than men in various government services as clerks and stuff. But at the same time women membership of political parties is somewhere between 20% and 40%, depending on party. Women simply do not enter political parties and thus do not become politicians who could enter political positions in institutions.
I do not doubt the same holds for other countries and also for EU bureaucracy.
20:45
@wilx "simply". Always with using the current state as an explanation for the current state.
@sehe The problem here (as I see it, anyway) is that too many people are far to quick to attribute malice based on far too little evidence.
"Things are so because they are so."
@EtiennedeMartel Yes, simply. Women simply do not start own parties and women simply do not enter existing ones in the same numbers as men. Simply, because there is no actual barrier for women to do either the former or the latter.
@wilx You should doubt more
@wilx And you got that last point from....?
20:48
@EtiennedeMartel well, it's pretty much accepted that men simply are more inclined to be rapists and to go in prison. when was the last time anyone ever said it too could be cultural?
@EtiennedeMartel His convictions, of course
@EtiennedeMartel I do not know of any such barriers. If you know of some, please, enlighten me.
Question: are you guys still arguing while being perfectly aware of each other's arguments anyway?
Ell
Ell
@JerryCoffin I agree
though
I guess people attributing it to ignorance is equally bad for these people attributing anything to it
@wilx Maybe you should ask some women politicians
20:49
@Morwenn It is a mock fight over the internet. We are simply men-beasts!
C'mon I am the beast.
@Morwenn You are, too!
Since Trudeau's election, Canada has a 50-50 split for its cabinet ministers.
20:51
@EtiennedeMartel That is a very small group of people.
zzzz
@sehe I see you have already done that. Would you tell me what you have learnt, please? :)
Ell
Ell
I don't understand trudeau cabinet being 50/50
@wilx also an inspiring figure internationnally
When a journalist asked him "why" in an interview, he answered, with a smirk, "Because it's 2015"
Ell
Ell
20:51
if trudeau is selecting on competence only, why must he enforce the 50/50 split on himself?
@Ell Because it is twenty fifteen!
@wilx Where do you "see" that? I haven't.
Ell
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel I bet people buzzfeed etc. lapped that up
20:52
@Ell I see it more as making sure you don't fall onto basic reflexes of picking men because they're more similar to you.
10 mins ago, by Jerry Coffin
There's certainly quite a bit of data to indicate that many people hesitate to join groups of people where they're substantially different from the current population so if you want equality, you frequently need to "push" the balance in the opposite direction for a while to produce a group into which a wider range of people feel more chance that they can fit.
Ell
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel well you can see it as that
Either way he is openly admitting that he is sexist, right?
@JerryCoffin As I have said, women generally do not establish own parties either.
Ell
Ell
Funny that, here in the uk we've had a lot of female PM candidates
You forgot to mention giraffes frequently don't use the loo, either
20:53
@Ell Why would he be? Rectifying imbalances doesn't make you sexist.
50% of Canada's population is female. Shouldn't they be represented at the highest level of government?
Ell
Ell
Representation is not all that a politician does
but yes, they should be represented
@EtiennedeMartel Entering a political party is based on paying a membership and attending meetings, at least here, not on somebody picking you.
Ell
Ell
Okay I gotta go to sleep now
@wilx I was talking about the cabinet.
Ministers are nominated by the Prime Minister.
Ell
Ell
Night folks
20:56
@Ell Sleep tight :)
Each and every elections here, you can find articles on how parties try to get some women on ballots and basically have to beg them to get them on the ballot. Few do want to run in the elections.
That's interesting. Why is that?
@EtiennedeMartel Why should it be 50:50 for by gender (or 49:51, which is the usual male:female ratio)? Isn't it sexist to suggest that men cannot represent women and vice versa? :)
@wilx At least in the US, the current system makes it exceedingly difficult to create a third party that's even slightly meaningful, so most people feel "stuck' with choosing one of the existing parties, regardless of having little real agreement with either. There's a widespread belief that "any vote for a third party is equivalent to voting for that guy who might actually be even more despicable than I am, so you need to vote for me!"
Will you be requiring same ratios for blacks. asians, whites, Inuits on one axis and gay, heterosexual, transsexual, bisexual on another axis?
20:58
Hey, that's axist :o
WW2 Axis best axis.
Ax murdered
@JerryCoffin OK, but that is not the case here. You need 5 % of votes (basically) to enter the chamber of representatives here. Yet, no women's parties exist.
@wilx Diversity is diversity
21:00
@wilx When you ask those kind of rhetorical questions, do you seriously believe that's what I'm saying? Or are you just disagreeing with how I'm saying it?
They're called straw men
Are you seriously trying to shift the discussion to one of semantics?
If anything, nominations into prime minister's cabinet are about favourism and nepotism.
@sehe I certainly hope not! I'm not even a big fan of piano, and I'd still feel terrible if Emanual Ax were murdered. [Hmmm...I wonder how my knowledge of your other occupation prompted me to think of him...]
popcorns that shit
21:02
If any office is fiercely meritocrat, it's gonna be the ministries here. They even accept non-party affiliated people from business or education
@JerryCoffin He doesn't need much murdering anymore, right. That might be a tad harsh :)
@EtiennedeMartel I am saying that basing your decision making on the gender and sex axis ratios is stupid. If they happen to be the best people for the job and at the same time they are accidentally so diverse on race and gender, fine. But if you skip a better educated (not that I suggest it happened, I do not know) white cis het dude for gay Sikh just so that you have a gay and a Sikh, then it is wrong.
@wilx Are you seriously saying that that's what quotas are for?
Are you seriously arguing about that purely hypothetical situation?
And are you seriously saying that the current state is one where most people are selected purely on the basis of their competence?
@EtiennedeMartel But quotas result in exactly such situations. Look at the US universities and affirmative action. Asians have to get better scores than whites and those better scores than hispanics and blacks to enter the same university.
(that's a lot of seriousness)
IOW, Asians and whites are disadvantaged when entering universities in USA.
21:09
@EtiennedeMartel I dunno about that exact situation, but he does have something of a point for at least a few cases. When I lived in South Dakota, I knew a guy who was something like 1/4 Native American. He (officially) held something like 8 jobs, and nearly the only thing he did on any of them was pick up pay checks. There were few enough members of minorities available, that he was hired purely to improve their numbers, with no expectation that he'd actually do any real work.
Aw man, why must capitalism ruin everything.
cough
@EtiennedeMartel Capitalism? Not sure what it has to do with any of the discussion at hand.
I was joking.
@wilx the European Comission is one of the worst bits of it.
@EtiennedeMartel I considered that (based on the "cough"), but couldn't quite figure out how it was funny (but I'm probably just slow after a morning with too many meetings and conference calls).
21:14
@R.MartinhoFernandes It is. I am not sure but it seems to me it has gotten considerably more worse with Juncker's bunch.
honestly, the more I hear about the European Commission, the more I think that it's one of the worst things, ever.
@EtiennedeMartel I think the only thing that would really help would be restructuration from the ground up. Eliminating sexism doesn't avoid nepotism.
I'm all for the European Union but fuck the Commission.
Too late for that.
:p
@Puppy \o/
I think a defenestration is in order! :D
21:16
Montreal's a great place to live! Also we're hiring.
@EtiennedeMartel One word: Trudeau.
@wilx He's suuuper cool.
Recently the Liberal Party's been running ads saying "Trans rights are human rights"
@Puppy Many things about the EU often feel like wasted good ideas.
@EtiennedeMartel Someone mentioned rhetoricals not long ago :)
@EtiennedeMartel yeah, un autre montréalais
21:17
@sehe :(
I suck at arguing.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I voted In for the record
Feels like it takes a while for me to make an actual point.
@wilx probably just observational bias from the increased media attention.
They've been shitty since I remember.
@JerryCoffin that's... stupendous. Or stipendous, if you will
21:18
@EtiennedeMartel Just stop arguing then and turn into positive trolling.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I do not know. Might be.
@wilx hope they don't have crystal window panes
@sehe He certainly liked it...
@EtiennedeMartel Well, you just need arguments. :)
Or maybe now there's more important stuff going on for them to fuck up.
21:20
@JerryCoffin mind blowing. I guess it was part of a ploy to save money on welfare?
Goal f*cking accomplished
Is that a live recording?
Using a phone?
In a stadium?
@sehe No, it's post-punk.
But the recording does sound worse that what I remembered.
Aw, no beer left :(
@sehe I doubt it. At least at the time, he didn't have any kids.
Hmm. Unemployment benefits are welfare too right? (My whole point was that it backfired)
Just to illustrate an inequality that favours women: In most of the developed countries, more women get college degrees than men. In USA, 2008, it was 2-to-1 for black women and men. Is that sexism or barriers or what? Or is it the choices the people make? Why is there no outrage in the whole West (including my country)?
@sehe At least in the US, unemployment and welfare are entirely separate. In any case, it was a matter of companies being required to hire more minorities to qualify for government contracts--so they hired him purely to increase the number of minorities on staff. The US may have ~20% African Americans overall, but in that part of the country, the percentage was effectively 0. Likewise for almost anybody else who legally qualified for "minority" status.
21:29
WTF
globalriskinfo.com/2016/07/31/an-open-letter-to-khizr-khan you literally took the words outa my mouth
> So I am currently serving in the military, and I have to say, for the most part, I agree with this letter. It is absolutely true that the Kahn’s as a family suffered a loss, but in the end, neither one of them have sacrificed anything. Their son made the ultimate sacrifice, and for that, there is no amount of thanks that this nation can offer that would be sufficient to replace him in their lives. But that is where it ends. The nation owes these people nothing else. He did volunteer, fully knowing the possible outcome for a life of military service.
I <3 both of u
@wilx why would it spark outrage?
@thepiercingarrow apparently not enough to type properly
@wilx It might hint at sexism or barriers. Then again, it might indicate that women are less likely to drop out of college. To get any meaningful data, you'd have to look at things over which the colleges have actual control, such as admissions.
@sehe Well, because it is unequal.
I should be implementing natural_less, but instead I'm not doing anything relevant.
Ven
Ven
21:39
Drink beer!
Not that implementing natural_less is relevant, but...
@Ven I finished the last one :'(
Ven
Ven
Oh noeeess
I've already drunk two of them.
Anymore and I'll wake up with a bitter taste in my mouth.
Ell
Ell
I admire your commitment @Morwenn
Ell
Ell
21:41
I'm always impressed by people sticking at their projects
I have never been able to
@wilx what makes it unequal? I thought choice was free. As long as access is mostly equal I don't see the outrage
Haha, it's more like I have no idea for other projects.
You'll find more differences. If you look closely you'll find fewer women competing in rugby or reciting prayers on mosks. You will find that rich people tend to spend more time in college. You might find that people who do voluntary student board positions also graduate in multiple majors more. Different people have different values. Cultures matter a lot
Ell
Ell
@Morwenn you are modest :)
21:42
@sehe That is the fucking point. :)
Ven
Ven
@Morwenn drank :P. Or are you drunk? :D
@Ell Honestly not really. If I really was I wouldn't be pointlessly talking about that library here :p
Ell
Ell
Oops I was supposed to be in bed
@wilx Good to see you see the point. :)
@Ven drank memes
@sehe Well, I am arguing that the whole time.
Ven
Ven
21:43
@Ell i've been going at a project since 2009. Let me tell you -- I'm stupid not comitted
I know. There's just debate whether access is /at all/ equal
@Ven The past participle is « drunk » :p
> In an article entitled 'Why We Hate you and Want to Fight You', the 15th edition of the terrorists' periodical Dabiq spells out why the jihads are hell bent on destroying the West
I don't like being drunk, especially since I'm not made of liquid.
@EtiennedeMartel Eh, you are.
21:44
@wilx I wouldn't fit in a glass.
Ven
Ven
@Morwenn the correct form is "I've already drank", isn't it?
@EtiennedeMartel You are some 60 % water. :)
Ven
Ven
Am I that bad at english? :o
@Ven I believe it would be « I already drank ».
Ven
Ven
Oh, no: "i already drank", "i've already drunk"
Right, I think you're correct.
21:46
That part at 6:00-6:40 is so good ç_ç
I love music.
Sometimes.
nwp
nwp
@wilx the first 5 look the same to me
Ell
Ell
@Ven I still get this wrong a lot
@nwp Yeah. They sort of are. :)
@Ell Drink/drank/drunk are a bit unusual in this regard (especially with "drunk" having two separate, but marginally related, definitions). Hang/Hanged/Hung is a little the same way, but only a little (still leads to situations where quite a few people are uncertain which is right though).
@EtiennedeMartel do you know of an event on listbox/scrollviewer that notifies when close to bottom?
I'm writing a thing that lazy loads stuff
21:52
@JohanLarsson Nope, sorry.
ok, feels like there should be something
Although you'd probably have some luck looking at ItemContainerGenerator
I can always attach prop it
been searching but have not found anything, feels like it must be a solved problem
0
A: How do you bind a CollectionContainer to a collection in a view model?

Johan LarssonAn IMultiValueConverter is a nice fit for CompositeCollection but not for your specific case where you add stuff in xaml. Converter: using System; using System.Collections; using System.Globalization; using System.Windows.Data; public class CompositeCollectionConverter : IMultiValueConverter {...

^ is somewhat nice
first nice use of multivalueconverter
Ell
Ell
22:11
@JerryCoffin I do the same with run/ran ;(
:'(
Irregular verbs is something teachers really want us to know around here in English classes.
@Ell Sounds kinda rank to me.
And the English ones, even those that aren't even irregular in the US.
@JohanLarsson nah
22:17
it's just "help, UI view templates are shite"
not sure how you mean
Wow, the mix of our new song isn't bad. I didn't think I could enjoy listening to myself play the recorder (ok, the fact that there are 5 other guys playing stuff heps a lot).
@JohanLarsson Well, the fundamental problem here is that XAML is not code. If it was code he could just stick in whatever code he needs that produces the outcome he wants.
i used compositecollection for the first time today, that was the nicest way I could think of
yep
which leads right back to "Help, UI templates are shite".
22:21
Accepted answer is much hackier
@Puppy you need to elaborate on that
Pretty nice that wpf resolves templates by type imo
Sure I could have put the composite collection in the viewmodel but it is not really needed there
let me put it this way
it would be super simple to write a function that simply produces a list of all the items that should go in that combobox.
but instead you have all of this binding crap
Time to go to sleep. I'm supposed to do basic maths tomorrow and I suck at that.
Later :)
@Puppy that is always an option
but merging a bunch of observable collections feels nontrivial
I recommend the Concat extension method.
does not work for this
22:26
it probably doesn't, but it really should do and the fact that it doesn't is a big sign saying that the system is fucked up
the composite collection creates a merged view of observablecollections routing change notifications
yeah, I got that part ;p
the better question is, why do you even need such a thing in the first place just to make a list of items.
you could subscribe to all collections and do concat and inpc of course
> i used compositecollection for the first time today
@Morwenn A belated "g'night" to you ma'am.
@Morwenn: For you. :D
22:40
@lefticus @ericniebler @cppcast Don't feel bad, you're not the only person who nods and smiles while actually not listening to @apardoe.
sick burn
@wilx that's a lot of fun
Yup. :)
hey
everyone
I just had pizza and felt like making a simple snake game. Thought it would take me 30 mins max
turns out I suck.
:)
@qaispak Well, I couldn't do it in 30 minutes either. :)
@qaispak Tools and environments suck. Tools have improved, but environments have gotten worse. Took about an hour in MS BASIC ~30 years ago, but I doubt most people could do it that fast any more (for a modern environment).The tools haven't improved enough, fast enough, to keep the job as easy as it was then (though you can certainly make it prettier now than it was in monochrome text then).
23:07
@JerryCoffin the choices were a fraction back then
You would probably have to choose SCREEN 10 or SCREEN 11 or so :)
And then there would be about 5 different primitives to blit things onto the screen.
Input methods: ~3 (mice weren't common)
So it'd basically be just ON KEY GOSUB
I think I'd do the text version considerably faster in c++14 than in a BASIC
@sehe True--one language, one CPU speed, you name it. It did make it much quicker to learn enough that you can write a semi-interesting game though.
Well. There was the turbo button at the front :)
@JerryCoffin I think that was the /whole/ marketing idea behind IBM PC/XT, Commodore and Amiga.
I spent all these years learning to code
They pushed for the commodity general-purpose device and wanted to put the possibilities into the hands of users.
but now every time I need to implement somethng or make a project, I need to deal with all GUI crap
if it's a webpage html crap
23:12
@sehe Other than the minor detail that it doesn't provide anything to tell you (or let you set) the screen size, clear the screen, or draw anything at a particular point on the screen. Oh, and there's also that minor detail that you can't do a non-blocking read from the keyboard in portable code either. But yeah, other than the parts you can't do, it's probably easier.
There's a reason that C64 boots into a BASIC repl
half my time is spent configuring GUI. Can I just CODE!? :
:(
@JerryCoffin I'd be happy to resort to hacks. The non-blocking IO is ... not very accurate. I can just read from /dev/input0 or whatever :)
Portable code? Your BASIC wasn't portable too.
BASIC, GW-BASIX, MSBASIC, BASICA, Amiga-BASIC
@sehe It was portable to every machine (of the right type) in existence! :-)
They were painfully different in the details
@JerryCoffin Precisely. That's why I say: it's not that the tools didn't improve. They're growth isn't completely symmetric with the explosion of options and possibilities
23:16
@sehe We seem to be in violent agreement. I didn't say the tools didn't improve--just that they haven't improved enough, fast enough...
@qaispak You certainly can. Use Vim. Use javascript. Code in your browser. Just code
@JerryCoffin I think they have, actually. But de gustibus :)
I don't miss the simple access to framebuffer, VARPTR, DEF FN. I even can do without ON KEY (or, ON ERROR RESUME NEXT :))
For toying they were great
@sehe Well, the conclusion there was: "... to keep the job as easy as it was then." So, it wasn't anything like a moral judgement that it's wrong for tools to have progressed at the speed they have. Or are you honestly arguing that a reasonably bright kid with no exposure to code could learn enough quickly enough to finish it nearly as quickly as a lot of us did back then with those tools?
Yes. Just use Ruby. Or Scratch. Or jabbascript. Or love2d.org etc
@JerryCoffin It's like saying it's harder to drive a F3 car starting as a reasonably bright kid with no exposure to driving, than it was for a lot of us back then in our karts
Speaking of which. I should probably give my child Love2d instead of Minecraft
@sehe I think that's a somewhat inaccurate analogy, to put it mildly. Nonetheless, does it make sense that most environments seem to correspond to a F3 car? Mom wants something new to go get groceries? Get her an F3. Need to haul big loads? Yup, got your F3 right here...
Maybe I don't have the right idea of F3 cars. I meant a race car.
23:28
@sehe That was my assumption as well.
Yes, modern PCs and programming environments are comparable to that.
And your anecdotal BASIC environment was not.
If you do "snake" in c++, you very much drive a F3 (or actually F1) to the supermarket.
@sehe I guess I'm a little uncertain what "that" you're comparing to.
If you simply want to say that modern PC's are overdimensioned and people shouldn't be using them, fine :)
@JerryCoffin It's completely unambiguous in the context of my immediately preceding line.
@sehe I'm not saying anything about the hardware. Yes, of course, most CPUs are dramatically faster than most of us really need, but that doesn't bother me. There's nothing about the CPU being fast, however, that mandates programming being more difficult (or even as difficult)--but that seems to have happened anyway. I think it's partly that we've replaced some simple abstractions with complex mechanisms, to almost nobody's benefit.
A lot of it seems to come from multi-user, multi-process OS, and GUI on the other hand.
23:37
The most obvious is that we no longer have a reasonably simple model of the "screen". At that time, setting a mode determined the "size" of the screen, and we just updated specific spots on it when they changed. Now most code is written in terms of re-drawing on demand, which makes nearly everything more complex--to the point that I think most give up in frustration almost before they even start.
Most of that is fixable. Like I said, just Python or Ruby and deploy as a unikernel
@JerryCoffin yeah, there's a lot of charm in the way legacy DOS applications will just render as-if they write to the video buffer still.
Of course, we have UNICODE and 32k colors to think of now
@sehe I think there's more to things than that. Some of the first BASIC I wrote was on a multi-user, multi-process DEC PDP-11, but it was still simple. You're right, however, that GUIs changed it all in a hurry--we no longer got a simple abstraction of drawing what we wanted when we wanted. Instead, we had to conform to its idea, which involved our storing, and only drawing when it wanted.
Early on, that made sense--we didn't have the memory to spare to store a bitmap of each program's output, to be composited later by the hardware, so we coordinated drawing so everybody's output went directly to the screen buffer as needed. That time is long past though--and in fact, we now do the bitmap per app and compositing anyway, but we still require apps to act like it wasn't happening.
@sehe Been a long time since I saw a video adapter that even offered a 16-bit mode. Most of us have had at least 16 million colors for quite a while now.
How come we don't see more back-to-basic UI frameworks? github.com/ocornut/imgui seems related
@JerryCoffin Oh I wasn't counting. I never use more than a handful of colours :)
@sehe At least IMO, it's not the frameworks that need changing--it's X, Windows, whatever Mac calls what they do, and so on. Right now, we start with something unnecessarily bad, and invent one thing after another to try to cover up what a mess it really is. I'm advocating that we try to start with something that's not such a complete mess.
@sehe I do. I still enjoy photography, so I like my colors.
@JerryCoffin That's too rigid for me. By analogy, simply because we can have preemptive multitasking doesn't mean I think cooperative threads should be dumped. I think a graphics framework with event based redraw can still be the best thing for some applications. I vouch for the abstraction: let the "standard mode" for doing things be "write to a fixed size buffer directly reflects window contents" on top of it. There's no harm to the programmer experience in that scenario
And then, yesh the Invalidate{Rect|...} mess should probably be simplified. But that's MS for you.
That whole backwards compatibility thing is crushing. Even on Linux, 'coz UNIX
> This doomsday scenario is called the heat death of the universe, and it’s how cosmologists currently expect our universe to end. But don’t lose sleep over it, it won’t happen for another googol (that’s 10^100) years, and we’ll all be dead long before (I really did start this sentence trying to help).
hehe.

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