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@LucDanton lol literally 30 minutes after I checked the mailing list if it has been released already or not
user1804599
@doug65536 Much more comprehensible than a C++ compiler written in C++.
@LucDanton only 40 years for this to appear in production at <most companies>
@DmitriBudnikov but your mind is elastic today
My GCC 4.9.1 disagrees
11:04
Hmm, the tag has almost 3 hours it seems (or at least that's what SVN's web ui says...).
@DmitriBudnikov Oh come on, we are almost using GCC 5.
(...of course called "5.0" by everyone in management; I hope our LFS guys realized that that is not a release...)
I wonder how long until the tag hits the github mirror.
@doug65536 actually compilers in Haskell are pretty readable.
I'd say after Zoidberg, much more so than the ones in C++
Ven
Ven
well..
@Griwes you haven't actually answered why do you value compiler-built-in metaprogramming over simply running some other codegen/program beforehand so much
@BartekBanachewicz Codegens add another step to the build process and I'm not particularly happy with that.
I think that building a program is a complex issue. Pushing it down to a type system is abusing it for the thing it wasn't designed to do.
@Griwes But they also tend to work much faster
11:13
...unless it was designed for it :P
@BartekBanachewicz That's not something I care too deeply about.
@Griwes then let me say it even stronger; the type system that's overly focused on code generation is violating SRP
@Griwes But that impacts iteration times dramatically. There's a real-world productivity case to be made here.
I'm not after writing software to write software :P
See, different use cases, different desired tools.
@Griwes I fail to see the "different use case" you're painting that specifically "makes you not particularly happy" with a separate codegen mechanism
those are rather vague statements.
I want to be able to use the same tools for similar pieces of code.
I don't want to need to implement an algorithm for values, and then have to implement it again for types when I need it at that level (this is even worse when I have to implement it in another language that exists specifically to do codegen).
@Griwes What is that dictated by? Do you think the productivity gain for using the same tools outweighs the productivity loss caused by longer build/iteration times and the complexity of crafting the codegen using such tools?
11:17
I'm not after "productivity".
Oh excuse me then.
Nevermind.
I don't want to follow tradeoffs just so that I can write a piece of code half an hour faster.
I'll put it more bluntly: you want to write code, not create software.
you're a coder, not a developer.
uh oh this is going to take an interesting turn
@BartekBanachewicz No, I'm neither: I'm a researcher.
11:19
@DmitriBudnikov I don't know, the discussion has ended on my part.
did it ever begin
I want to find and discover stuff, not develop software for a living.
@Griwes And what is that you research actually?
the worst part in all of this is that I didn’t get any stars for my announcement
user1804599
Stop distinguishing between types and terms, you Coq.
11:20
6.2 will bring you more luck
fuck that I want GCC 7 now
@BartekBanachewicz ...code. Programming. IDK, I don't think you are going to exactly get it.
@Griwes I don't think you get it either ;)
but don't let that prevent you from continuing
@BartekBanachewicz Your PoV on this is like driving through the country to reach a goal.
@BartekBanachewicz Mine is like driving around the country to find places no-one who drives to reach a goal cares much about.
ah, I do "research" in my spare time as well
11:22
Dunno if that makes sense.
it's not always about catching the rabbit
I just like to have a purpose
like, Hate is a perfect example
@LucDanton I'll star it when a git tag is available. :D
it's terrible and useless and its design is collapsing under its weight but it actually promises to do something amazing
it's not there to just prove "hey you can create a stateless renderer and it's a PoC". PoCs make you make shortcuts and unrealistic decisions
Ven
Ven
#haskell
Ven
Ven
11:25
no really i think that's an actual problem in the haskell community
pictures are worth more than a thousand more
@Ven what do you mean?
Ven
Ven
deployed applications are worse more than a thousand rant articles about how Haskell is superior
user1804599
#haskell is the worst chatroom ever.
Ven
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz I'm saying a lot of them are wankers that just won't show
and will spend their time debating crap on IRC, reddit, HN, writing shit articles, by telling without ever showing
@Ven yeah, haskell is the best language ever that produces almost no working software ;)
Ven
Ven
11:26
no
I think Haskell is a nice language that you can use to actually build stuff
user1804599
PureScript >>> Haskell (pun intended)
@Ven that's not what I said (I agree with you in the first place)
Ven
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz you were being overly sarcastic
point being people don't use it enough.
@Ven so what else is new
Ven
Ven
no barteking with me :)
11:27
that's a harsh demand
Ven
Ven
I enjoy discussing with you, no point derailing said discussions
@Ven oh BTW I had an idea today
for Hate-UI
are you ready
Ven
Ven
i'm doing some sysadmin right now, so my brain might be off
but go ahead
so I was fighting with self reference problem in record objects used instead of typeclass instances and it struck me
I just need self passthrough added to every single function
Ven
Ven
11:30
you're writing a Writer
well, most probably RWS
@Ven I'll make it another layer I think
something like buttonClick :: MouseInputData -> SelfModifying Button Effect
Hmm, I'm tempted to say "fuck it" and buy myself a D7200 like, now... Could use my mother's 18-200mm lens for a while, then buy something for myself...
Ven
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz a bit vague, even for hs
instead of just Effect, I could have a wrapping transforming monad that would signify the RW self
Ven
Ven
yea
you want a monad transformer here, though
11:32
@Ven this way I can clearly separate stuff like "button click triggers a state change" and "button click makes it look clicked"
@Ven yeah
so what do you think
Ven
Ven
agreed
I'm so implementing this today
Ven
Ven
well, I'd actually recommend you take a look at PS' UI/HTML stuff
PS' ?
oh purescript
I was actually gonna make a React app first
I have to ask @Puppy for a tutorial
Ven
Ven
aight
11:50
oh there's a tesla S in front of our office
Ven
Ven
no rebecca 2/10
@Ven it’s Wednesday
Ven
Ven
i don't care
memes are a art you can’t just spout whatever you want
11:57
@LucDanton Video itself isn't anything special but the concept is nice
> 1. Promotional credit will expire 12 months after it has been issued or redeemed.
ugh fuck you digital ocean
@LucDanton wow that really the syntax
what the hell
 requires(Incr incr) {
    ++incr;
};
just wat
that is no surprise
concept bool
but why
12:00
has always been like that
the Incrementable{Incr} OTOH
wat
@AndyProwl yeah that's ok but this "requires" part
lol people who design C++ syntax are really bad
@BartekBanachewicz just wait for requires requires
Ven
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz :(
@BartekBanachewicz WORDS
@AndyProwl and then there's the fallback that uses regular template convention because no one likes consistency
@Ven WORDS is what's in that code
Ven
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz WORDS are missing from that sentence
12:01
I'm just surprised by the Incrementable{Incr}
must be a new thing
haven't seen this in earlier drafts
what's concept bool again
would you say your mind is expanded by it
i mean why bool
it's a variable template
Ven
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz we bikeshedded this to death already
12:02
@AndyProwl what?
death by bikeshed
@AndyProwl oh lol, cool
@BartekBanachewicz yeah
Ven
Ven
Jan 22 at 9:50, by Ven
We'll just see how C++23 adds to concept where you actually return a T&?!&?
12:03
@LucDanton sweet
-> decltype(sizeof sizeof true) wouldn't be bad either
@Ven why would you return anything other than a bool from a concept
Ven
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz read the bikeshed, dude
we aren't going over that
@AndyProwl decltype isn't repeated
@Ven minor drawback IYAM
@AndyProwl I really like long long repetition though
Ven
Ven
@AndyProwl it's not a repetition it if's not repeated :\
12:04
eh, but return isn't repeated either
nor is repetition
but that would make it too meta for @Griwes
@Ven duplicating the return expression in the return type is… really hard to justify (e.g. to a C++ newcomer) and yet we do it all the time, it deserves to be made fun of
@Ven yeah right it was Luc who was answering so of course he had to wank to his own words instead of answering the actual question
Ven
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz you really are after non-answering/vague people these days :P
was it really so hard to say "because C++ commitee is shit and as a consequence C++ is shit what did you expect concepts to not suck lol"
we're all shit
Ven
Ven
12:07
not you bby <3
I'm the shit
> The actual discussion in the C++ committee with regard to concepts:
> > Lol let's make the concept take a type here.
> > But what for?
> > IDK lol.
> > Lol.
5
requires shit isn't that bad IMO, however I'd like also to have signature-based constraints
apart from requires requires, fuck that, but overall it's not the end of the world either
"everything could happen" Well, no, because the set of things in everything includes those things that are mutually exclusive. However, it is correct to say that (from a theoretical standpoint) anything could happen. — Lightness Races in Orbit 4 mins ago
heh missed the pedantry
it’s straightforward to remove the requires expression and put it in its own concept
Ven
Ven
12:10
@BartekBanachewicz XD
@BartekBanachewicz maybe the went back to serious just long enough to basically cancel C++17
@LightnessRacesinOrbit you are being deeply missed. inb4 flagged too chatty. — Andy Prowl 42 secs ago
biggest issue IMO is indiscriminate lack of definition checking
and the fact that requirements as formulated right now do not allow specifying "lvalue or rvalue"
@AndyProwl ??
in ++incr, operator ++ is only required for lvalues
here we go again, repeat after me: value category is a property of expressions
Ven
Ven
12:14
and you're a property of faggotry
@AndyProwl specify the expression you need, and you get the exact value category that comes with
what if I want to express that a function foo() should exist, which can be called both on lvalues and on rvalues
write the expressions
right, twice
lots of duplication
they’re not the same expressions
what’s your alternative that doesn’t have 'duplication'?
12:17
signature-based requirements
if a function takes 3 arguments and I want both lvalues and rvalues to be supported for each, I don't want to have to write 8 constraints
iow, in you check for void foo(arg const&); then struct model {}; void foo(model const&); is a model as long as there is no void foo(model&&) = delete; (or similar) in scope?
Looking forward to the mini drone with cam, so I can use it to stalk my chickens :p
Still waiting for them to post it
@AndyProwl I understand the sentiment. Signatures leave me sceptical though, overload resolution rules are no joke.
@LucDanton The arg const& thing is not what I would want to use for expressing that both lvalues and rvalues should be accepted, but anyway yes, that's the idea
now I'm afraid of uttering the word "syntax", but basically I'd want some sugared syntax that lets me say "lvalue or rvalue expression here" instead of providing a concrete expression
user1804599
12:32
@Ven lol
@AndyProwl oh that sounds less scary then
user1804599
STM is easy when you only have one thread.
@AndyProwl requires(X&&& x) { foo(x, x, x); /* 8 for the price of 1 */ } it’s the only sensible way
@LucDanton I dunno, everywhere else named things are lvalues
but yeah, better than the repetition
yes the joke is indeed that this is not sensible at all
12:35
oh
lol
I'm the trollee as usual
every categorical statement I make is ironic
user1804599
trolly
thanks for the protip
basically I'm not even sure why a concrete expression has to be picked in the first place
fry.jpeg @DmitriBudnikov
why should I decide between foo(42), foo(int{}), and foo(-1)
12:38
@AndyProwl having toyed a bit with concepts, that particular approach really reminds me of, well, type-checking
if I were the governer of the world I'd allow foo(int), foo(int.lvalue) and foo(int.rvalue), and that's it. If I feel generous I might allow changing the . token
guys
what would be a proper language to devlop a screen sharing project
@AndyProwl the pseudo-param list makes a good lot of sense for 'I need an arbitrary pretend thing of that type' though
user406009
@Slashy Any language. It wouldn't really matter.
not somthing big,but focused on high fps,low latency ,low network usage
12:43
i.e. requires(type thing) { foo(thing, move(thing), pseudo_operator_for_either_value_category(thing)); }
@Lalaland yeah
but i need somthing which works quite fast
c# for example would be good?
i know these stuff more or less,this is not somthing new to me
i got some ideas right now
@LucDanton yeah, but IMO the lack of possibility to specify arbitrary category as well is annoying. What's even more annoying is that the standard concepts seem to be defined without caring for rvalues at all (at least this is what the definitions in the Origin library seem to imply)
user406009
@Slashy Yeah. It doesn't really matter all that much.
@Lalaland but c++ in many cases works faster ..no?
@AndyProwl yeah as much as I like the language features that back concepts I’m actually relatively pessimistic when it comes to the actual concepts being defined with them lol
12:45
maybe after all making it a TS wasn't such a bad idea
the code execution
@Rapptz accept the truth of TSs into your heart
Ven
Ven
@Zoidberg nice avatar
user1804599
Thanks.
Ven
Ven
not as good as the other pics I have, tho :3
12:53
> Implement C++17 [[maybe_unused]] attribute.
always nice to see fresh development restart
Xeo
Xeo
> maybe_unused
wait, what
yeah
a nice new tool in our toolbox
can't wait for all the usage I won't ever make of it
user406009
@Slashy Yeah, but you probably only need the video encoding/decoding parts to be fast.
user406009
And I assume you are going to be using an existing library for that.
user406009
The more important question is if we will get a Monad concept in the standard library.
5
user406009
13:00
Because clearly, nothing is worthwhile without monads.
without concept maps and do notation it would arguably be not very useful
inb4 yes andy I'm kidding
user406009
@AndyProwl It's the thought that counts.
It's the thought, dat cunt
what category is that
13:03
what what is what
@Lalaland wait
the encoding part is different here no?
because i just need to compare between previous and current frame
it's not just saving them into a video
I'm totally getting an oldschool Porsche someday
cc @R.MartinhoFernandes
@Xeo did the name maybe_disappoint you
oh god I thought this is edition.com /cc @AndyProwl
@BartekBanachewicz I urged to open that link thinking it'd be deleted soon
Well Sorry for disappointing your expectations
13:38
In functional programming, a monad is a structure that represents computations defined as sequences of steps: a type with a monad structure defines what it means to chain operations, or nest functions of that type together. This allows the programmer to build pipelines that process data in a series of steps (also called actions), in which each action is decorated with additional processing rules provided by the monad. Monads allow a programming style where programs are written by putting together highly composable parts. As such, monads have been described as "programmable semicolons"; a semicolon...
and he won't shut up
@Charlie hey this explanation is actually decent
Interesting concept, I was not aware of
@Charlie not many people are
user1804599
I just implemented a monad.
user1804599
instance stmFunctor :: Functor (STM eff) where
  map f (STM x) = STM \tx -> f <$> x tx
instance stmApply :: Apply (STM eff) where
  apply (STM f) (STM x) = STM \tx -> do f' <- f tx
                                        x' <- x tx
                                        pure $ f' x'
instance stmApplicative :: Applicative (STM eff) where
  pure x = STM \_ -> pure x
instance stmBind :: Bind (STM eff) where
  bind (STM x) f = STM \tx -> x tx >>= \x' -> case f x' of STM r -> r tx
instance stmMonad :: Monad (STM eff)
@BartekBanachewicz gl man, old-school Porsches are more expensive than new ones IME
nah, not really
well the maintenance is expensive but the cars themselves aren't that bad
I saw a rebuilt one with a beautiful sky blue paint and orange rims once
I came
yeah if it's rebuilt then it's gonna cost shitload
13:50
Inb4 ew orange rims cuz it looked dope on this
@BartekBanachewicz sorta like BMW e30s I guess
@LucDanton lol
just hard as fuck to find one in at least repairable condition
can I complain about concept syntax
@DmitriBudnikov proof that I don’t know how to star-whore myself
@nick OTOH those aren't exactly cars you need to rush to buy
13:51
Well, e30 m3 at least, although normal ones are getting tough to find as well
fair enough
Use the force, Luc
@DmitriBudnikov you can always complain about syntax
Just remember, every year you wait == more old cars rusting away or getting scrapped
> also breaks some non-conforming code-bases (such as Qt-5, Chromium, KDevelop)
lol
@nick 928 was produced up to 1994, will surely still be around
14:01
I'm just trying to own a humble 918
> humble
anyway 928 > 918 so it's clearly better
920 is the highest i go on the Humbleness Index so 918 will have to do
> Noessel posits that, because blue is so rare in nature (if you discount the sky and the ocean, which are arguably not blue)
I don't even know if serious or not
it’s actually the most common rhetoric tactic (if you ignore all the others that come before)
Life can't exist without the existence of a phenomenal source of Energy (I'll discuss in a second as to why the Sun doesn't count)
I remember reading that somewhere on a creationist forum
Guy was explaining that given the law of thermodynamics, life needed a massive source of energy to develop
And then proceeded to explain why the sun isn't a source of energy
(and hence God)
14:11
makes sense, amen
Ell
Ell
Why were you on a creationist forum? :P
I have no idea
I wonder if I can find it, that was years ago
no, it was on a vidya game forum
@Ell prolly the same reason he's on Islam
yeah that makes more sense already
@DmitriBudnikov well then we know just the one don’t we
14:16
I can't find the orignal source but I found a fragment of the quote (amaze google skills)
> One of the most basic laws in the universe is the Second Law of Thermodynamics. This states that as time goes by, entropy in an environment will increase. Evolution argues differently against a law that is accepted EVERYWHERE BY EVERYONE. Evolution says that we started out simple, and over time became more complex.
> That just isn't possible: UNLESS there is a giant outside source of energy supplying the Earth with huge amounts of energy. If there were such a source, scientists would certainly know about it.
Lol
well he was right
"Why are floats kept" ...so they don't float away :D :D — milleniumbug 10 secs ago
Does he not accept sun as a concept
we're also burning coal so
@набиячлэвэлиь Found it
14:20
I can't feel entropy, none of it - I can feel water, I can feel warmth, I can even feel chaos, I can not feel entropy
also the total amount of entropy in universe is not quantifiable
@набиячлэвэлиь concepts and stars don’t mix, trust me on this
4
@Telkitty Coffee getting cooler is a decrease in entropy thereof and an increase in entropy of the env
> Sorry, my mistake guys, I didn't explain why the Sun doesn't count.
essentially his argument is that the sun can't bring a dead plant back alive hence it doesn't count
14:21
I know what entropy is, I did physics in university
@DmitriBudnikov looooool
@DmitriBudnikov I'll take "What is Winter" for 500, Jim...
> Clermont-Ferrand "The best place in France" selon TheLocal.fr
allons bon
ZeLocal.fr
14:28
ZwCreateFile.exe
> 1. It’s surrounded by 40-kilometer long chain of 80 volcanoes. The last eruption was 8,000 years ago, and scientists say it's possible it's about time for another one. How’s that for living dangerously?
lol. That's completely wrong. How's that for writing factually correct articles?
@DmitriBudnikov yeah isn’t it a lot more than 40km
Being
sick
is the WORST.
dead is slightly further on that scale
@набиячлэвэлиь lol
14:39
inb4 flags
user1804599
user1804599
Exciting.
wow look it's red and blue text
Ven
Ven
yep
that excites rightfold
@Zoidberg is it a vis of your PS STM?
if yes then exciting
user1804599
14:43
No just of transactions in general.
user1804599
I made it with Inkscape.
user1804599
During commit, should I check whether any of the read variables have been changed by another committed transaction in the meantime, and retry?
there are two commits on the same line in the end.
@wilx I think what Simon meant to say was that Haskell started out being useless (no effects at all) before it adopted Monads (effects controlled by the type system).
14:55
> Valgrind shows memory leak with empty main without including headers
that's how bad C++ is
@fredoverflow and only recently have we realized that it's nowhere nearly enough and we've looked into algebraic effects ;)

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