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12:04
@Griwes Intent. Intent matters.
Don't Machiavelli me.
@Griwes What? I am just answering your question.
Yes, by basically saying "the end justifies the means".
well in some cases it clearly does.
it's just not true in general
12:16
@Griwes What @Puppy says. Think of a different situation. Killing people is bad. Killing people in combat in war is necessary.
kill people is bad, full stop
there is no justified wars
@Zoidberg I'm writing my own persistent CharVector for fun. Turns out for appending a million characters, it's only 20x times slower than StringBuilder :)
but for what operations though?
or 20x slower for all of them
> appending a million characters
CharVector v = CharVector.empty;
for (int i = 0; i < 1_000_000; ++i)
{
    v = v.append('x');
}
There are plenty of justified wars. Taking an inverted Godwin here, consider the Allies declaring war on Germany after the invasion of Poland.
user1804599
12:28
coool
user1804599
assert($x instanceof C);
$x->CSpecificMethod(); // works
Took Twitter only a few days to subvert @TayandYou into a racist hate machine: http://www.businessinsider.de/microsoft-deletes-racist-genocidal-tweets-from-ai-chatbot-tay-2016-3. What's that saying about Twitter?
@sbi interesting rhetorical coming from a (ex?) lounger. I'd say smart hackers are present there, and they were very quick to make a point. Where I've seen it I've only seen provocation, not manipulation.
to normal civilians in the area it's still not justified
history of wars are written by the winning side usually
also what are considered just are very subjective
Ven
Ven
:29559821 one per file?
user1804599
Make a program that presents to the user a menu such that the user can select an exercise.
user1804599
12:36
Or output all results to a file.
lol humans and the artificial idiots they invent, bravo
@Ven @Zoidberg thanks.
@sbi Right--it just happens that the particular scenario he's talking about involved globalization.
@sehe I don't think this is a Twitter issue
It's a society issue, any media with free and unfiltered commenting mechanism looks like that. (cc @sbi)
facebook, reddit, 4chan (lol) are no different, and possible worse.
imgur is somewhat moderated, but you still see it there.
user1804599
Excel is so cool.
user1804599
12:47
=IF(B1 <> "", CONCATENATE("'", B1, "' => MaterialUnit::", A1, ","), "")
@wilx Wars are not necessary.
@Griwes Really? So, you would simply give Hitler the whole Europe just because waging war against Germany is not necessary?
Sorry, but your statement is simply stupid.
"War is simply the continuation of political intercourse with the addition of other means." -- Carl von Clausewitz
I like this.
Okay, so wars are only necessary because there are wars?
That's nonsensical.
13:00
What am I doing wrong?
"Template parameter 'T' is incompatible with the declaration"
1) You posted a question here.
Yes
Oh
2) You posted it as a damned print screen.
Yes
Not sure what else you are doing wrong.
13:01
that's why you just use discord instead @Griwes :)
Even thinking about that would send you a signal that this is an acceptable form of asking a question.
Well the fault is in the 2nd bind_argument struct
Nothing changed, man.
Also, why is posting a question here wrong?
The fault is that you're completely ignoring what you're being told.
That's the biggest fault currently.
2 days ago, by Xeo
Read The Rules™ or you will have bad luck for the next 30 minutes.
13:03
@tambre If only there was a website where you could ask such questions...
@tambre Because there's an entire website that's dedicated to... you guessed it... asking questions?
chat is not the fast track to getting answers
@Borgleader Damn.
Hmmm... Bye then
13:19
@VeronikaPrüssels u ded?
@MadaraUchiha I think it indicates smart users if they expose the bottlenecks / vulnerabilities immediately. And mostly socratic, in this case
Afternoon~
13:43
@Griwes lol, ok what about saving the Jews being herded into concentration camps? Does that not make the war necessary even moral? :)
War is always a mistake, an army should aim to defend one's not to conquer others'.
Ven
Ven
13:58
namespace bai = boost::archive::iterators;
@Zoidberg Have you ever implemented persistent vectors?
I just spent several hours optimizing the code by sharing arrays instead of cloning them where possible, and the optimized solution is 10% slower than the naive solution O_o
user1804599
USB gloves are great.
user1804599
@fredoverflow No.
@wilx Herding Jews into concentration camps is unnecessary.
inb4 an out of context star
inb4 this shit ends up on meta again
14:12
@Griwes Impeccable logic.
@fredoverflow time well spent
call it a week and go grab a beer?
@fredoverflow Source arrays?
@wilx What do you mean?
@fredoverflow Read-only arrays?
Well, kind of "copy-on-write" arrays, if you will...
@LucDanton Wait, I found a bug in my code that totally screwed the performance. The optimized version is actually 5x faster now :)
14:20
hahahaha
0.9x to 5x, thats some performance bug
@fredoverflow next you’ll tell me you weren’t even building in release mode
There is no such thing as release mode in Java.
Cool, now the mutable StringBuilder is only 4x faster than my persistent CharVector!
@fredoverflow I had a perf bug yesterday where I resized a list based on a param that was an overflowed unsigned int
you can imagine how much finding that bug helped speed up things
getting a nice performance boost is one of the best feelings in writing software
What you were resizing on an overflowed int? wut? i dont get how that did not just crash you from running out of ram
probably second only to passing all your tests when actually write good tests
@Borgleader It was like a u16 or u8
Not a 32-bit integer
14:26
oh, well those are not unsigned ints :P
@Prismatic Implementing a persistent vector is one of those rare occurrences where I write lots of tests during development. I would be too scared to change anything of significance without them.
I tend to have more tests for the building-block style classes I use over and over again the most ... for the other stuff I get lazy :p
I think I even used fuzzing for one class I use a lot
Ven
Ven
@fredoverflow look at how clojure does it :)
@Prismatic Does something like this count as fuzzing?
private static void randomBranch(int startLength, int endLength)
{
    int len = startLength + rng.nextInt(endLength - startLength);
    System.out.println("split after length " + len);
    String s = makeStringOfLength(len);
    CharVector v = empty.append(s);
    CharVector a = v.append('-').append('a');
    CharVector b = v.append('-').append('b');
    assertEquals(s + "-a", a.toString());
    assertEquals(s + "-b", b.toString());
}
@Ven Where would be the fun in that?
Ven
Ven
in the performance juice
14:30
I'm pretty sure my vector is faster, because I don't do Object boxing.
Yeah I guess using the random there counts as fuzzing. At least that's what I consider it to be
I don't know if you need to include pathological inputs for fuzzing
Pathological = corner cases or erroneous cases?
Ven
Ven
probably for exhaustive fuzzing...
@fredoverflow yea
@Ven The former or the latter?
Ven
Ven
@fredoverflow both.
14:32
From wiki:
> Fuzz testing or fuzzing is a software testing technique, often automated or semi-automated, that involves providing invalid, unexpected, or random data to the inputs of a computer program.
I don't test errors at all.
What exactly counts as "unexpected input"? :)
imo unexpected/random is the same thing?
I think its like... say you have a vector and you are testing the resize parameter (which happens to be a signed int)
An unexpected input is a negative value
Ven
Ven
if only we had a type that said "only positive", and you could thus ensure at compile-time this did not happen!
With random values you can't guarantee you get bad input values
14:35
@Ven well with unsigned negative values just get really big, it doesnt help that much, in some cases youre replacing one crash with another :P
Ven
Ven
clearly .resize(MAX_INT) should work =P
@fredoverflow when your ask for an integer but receive a "potato"
@Ven It was just an example, maybe the language doesnt have unsigned ints
@LucDanton A test you'd expect to see in Javascript I guess
For dynamically typed languages do you have to check argument types in tests
They probably have static analyzers for that or something
npm ensure-not-potato
Ven
Ven
what's the type of a left-pad anyway
its a function?
you can pass functions around like objects in JS i think so I guess the type would just be 'function'
14:44
@Ven function
Ven
Ven
which really, is Object :P
just like null \o/
15:03
Uguu
My car radio was locked so i took the old one my dad had
The other one is also locked
Obv no key for either
FML
And yoi can't use the serial code for either, you need to read eeprom
what do you mean 'car radio was locked'
The original OEM radios have codes associated to them
6
Q: Efficiency of appending to vectors

fredoverflowAppending an element onto a million-element ArrayList has the cost of setting one reference now, and copying one reference in the future when the ArrayList must be resized. As I understand it, appending an element onto a million-element PersistenVector must create a new path, which consists of 4...

> How does Clojure manage to keep the vector overhead to "2.5 times worse" or "4 times worse" (as opposed to "60 times worse"), which has been claimed in several Clojure videos I have seen recently?
When power is taken away, they lock until you type in the cose
I have converted from vector sceptic to vector lover now :)
15:08
@BartekBanachewicz You mean if you remove the radio and try to power it up somewhere else it won't work?
user406009
@fredoverflow Persistent data structures are quite cool. I wish we had a good library of them for C++.
user406009
I wouldn't use them for most things, but sometimes they fit the task perfectly.
@Prismatic even in the same car, a temp power loss is enough
@Lalaland Probably not gonna happen without garbage collection. But that's just my gut talking.
It's supposedly an anti theft feature
Iow fucking useless annoyance
15:10
That seems incredibly inconvenient... no code in the stuff you got with the car?
maybe the code is the VIN
user406009
@fredoverflow Well, there are smart pointers. Still, lots of these structures are allocation heavy.
> PersistentVector stores its elements in arrays, each array having at most size 32.
Interesting, I always use size 32.
@Prismatic the code is 4 digits, and under normal operation you don't need to type it in
Say removing the battery might prompt it
Anyway some receivers can be decoded with simple calc from serial number
But for vw you need eeprom device
thats really stupid
I don't think they do it anymore
15:13
I wish I had a tablet I could install as a radio
I have an old tablet but its not Android so I cant really do anything with it
The only thing I'm worried about is operating temps
Well stock radios are typically v good quality
user4959035
Hi guys! Can you give me a piece of advice, please?
Which website (department) from StackExchange is for discussing the architecture of some API/platform?

I suppose, if to ask such a question on the main SO website, it will be incorrect.
sounds like programmers
Too broad
Programmers is essentially shit so maybe it fits there dunno
user406009
@MatthewTipton What do you "discussing the architecture"?
user406009
15:16
Like are you asking for a code review sort of thing?
I don't think any SE site is fit for "discussion".
user4959035
@Lalaland It's not for the code review. Discussing the conceptual model. Architecture.
They're fit for asking and answering questions.
I.e. wanking
user406009
@MatthewTipton Yeah, I don't think any of the sites are really fit for non-question type stuff.
user4959035
15:18
@Lalaland Pity.
user406009
What particular API/platform are you interested in talking about?
user406009
Some people here might be willing to open up a new room and discuss it there.
@MatthewTipton try here
I tried running UI-tests on appveyor, they ran forever. Cancelled the run.
@MatthewTipton None of them is intended to support discussion. They're intended to support posting questions that can be answered, and letting people post such answers. Given that it's about architecture, if you can come up with an actual question (not just a subject for discussion) I'd say Programmers.SE is probably the right place for it.
That being said, if the question was turned into something concrete it might just fit on so
15:23
> This operation is multi-thread safe.
But is it single-thread safe?
@StackedCrooked Depends on how you define "safe" (which was your point, I suppose).
@Rapptz I’m having troubles with references and namespaces, you ever run into that? e.g. I’m inside outer::inner and then :type:`thing` won’t be able to refer to .. type: thing inside outer :( I can have :type:`thing <outer::thing>` as a workaround but that’s really annoying
user4959035
@Lalaland About complex project. About smart cards, the best way of communicating. I want to use OData v4/OAuth 2.0 for this project.
user4959035
The most interesting place, I suppose is the authentication/authorization, because it's non-standard due use of smart-cards.
user406009
@MatthewTipton Oh. I don't really know anything about those. Best of luck.
15:28
BTW we have no loungers in Austria right
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz Telkitty is in Australia. Doesn't that count? :P
heh
I am leaving mid-april most orobably
Till the end of july
user406009
Nice. Why the trip (if you don't mind me asking)?
Ugh.
I gotta fix typos and write all the docs.
@ThePhD Sup~
15:31
I wonder if there's a spellchecker for Sublime Text.
@Lalaland I don't :) I am going to help the team there with the project they took from us
@Borgleader Going to take exam in ~1h30m
So purely work related
And then going to come back after tanking it and cry a li'l.
Then get to work writing 3 papers.
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz Ah, a work trip. Should be pretty cool.
user406009
15:32
It's always nice to check out other places.
Yeah I just got back to Poland, I was there for 10 days
@ThePhD rip :( gl!
user406009
I think there are a lot of Loungers in Germany though.
The place looks p nice so I guess I can endure the stay
15:33
I think instead of implementing an audio library I'm going to convince my other Professor to just let sol be my final project.
dat title
It's honestly the best C++ I've written in a while and I can present it ezpz.
@Lalaland eh dunno id need to fly anyway
I think I get why people dislike systemd now
It makes everything more annoying
I have have to use some stupid coredumpctl util to look up core dumps and then launch gdb with that util
Like why are you making shit so difficult
The core dumps aren't files gdb can read directly
HM those eeprom programmers are pretty cheap
15:36
@ThePhD do eeet
I will. Just have to send two professors an e-mail.
THe first one is to the original professor I'm working on this for's class.
IF they say I cant use it in another class, then I'm fucked.
If they say okay, then the second has to be okay with the scenario as well.
E_TOO_MANY_PERMISSIONS
I can't even find a way to easily browse the coredumps
Why the fuck can't I just copy the god damn file and open it with gdb
Stop making things 1000x worse god damn I'm so pissed rn
user1804599
I want a hat made out of cake.
You can't even directly specify a core dump file
user406009
@Zoidberg That seems sorta unsanitary.
user406009
15:46
Like it would drop and stuff and fall apart.
user406009
And it would get everywhere.
What the hell is your thought process when you say "I'm not going to let you open files I create, you instead have to use this stupid complicated process of trying to match some keyword bullshit to try and track down an individual core dump"
I hate these devs so much right now
user406009
@Prismatic visudo is another example of where you have a special tool to work on a certain file.
Does visudo let you open files using a file path?
Because this fucking useless util doesn't
You need to query it like a flipping database but the params it gives you are USELESS. If I'm debugging an application that's crashed a few dozen times how the hell am I supposed to pin down individual crashes? They give you these four useless query params that make it like searching for a needle in a haystack
@Rapptz oh it’s worse, I have to use <::outer::thing> to correctly refer
15:51
Fuck you Hibernate
There I said it
> >because suspend works, resume doesn't
I remember when I hibernated my XP and the system died completely so I had to restore it. Fun times
@Rerito What hibernate are you talking about? Windows or the Java ORM thing?
@ThePhD what would you do to sol in your final project then?
Java ORM
@JerryCoffin There's NHibernate for .NET
15:54
@Rerito :29563284 So let me get this straight. You took ORM (a bad idea) combined it with Java (an even worse idea) and then you're upset than the result is complete shit?
I dunno, my experience with NHibernate at work has been that it's pretty much fine
@LucDanton digraph problems? or what's going on :)
@JerryCoffin I'm not the one behind these choices, I'm the one that has to live with it
"coredumpctl coredumps on its own coredump"
It takes effort to write software this bad
yo dawg, i heard you like coredumps...
16:00
@Rerito Fair enough. Even when you expect something to suck, exposure to its suckage can lead to the need to vent a bit (or sometimes even a whole lot).
@Prismatic Look on SO. The non-working code in the question is (much) more complex than the working code in the answers at least 90% of the time.
Ugh. I'm currently working to fix a nonsense situation caused by frakked up dependencies in one of npm packages we are using at work.
This week is not going well for npm in my eyes <_<
Currently I have the pleasure of making all of our branches unstable to fix a primary problem <3
@Griwes did pad-left break your stuff? :D
No.
We are using node 0.12 something.
We were using xml2js 0.4.15, which says "xmlbuilder: >=2.x.y".
Now xmlbuilder published version 8.0.0 incompatible with 0.12.
#genius
@melak47 naw, rST with Sphinx
Oh, and xml2js 0.4.16 breaks some of our tests.
By "our" I mean owned by some guys in India.
16:11
I'm reading through some of these commits to systemd and they seem so arrogant
systemd's readahead implementation has been removed. In many
          circumstances it didn't give expected benefits even for
          rotational disk drives and was becoming less relevant in the
          age of SSDs. As none of the developers has been using
          rotating media anymore, and nobody stepped up to actively
          maintain this component of systemd it has now been removed
> As none of the developers has been using rotating media anymore
So if the systemd devs don't use something it gets shitcanned
by devs, for devs :v
@Rapptz mmh loads of weirdness going on actually, I’ll look into it another time
@melak47 Performance improvements and implementation of static-transport of functions for further compile-time optimizations that would probably drive Sol's times down to nearly exactly the C API's.
@Prismatic Well, it also says it wasn't really working
16:40
@Xeo What were you using to make it, if you don't mind me asking?
@набиячлэвэлиь poor rustc :(
@melak47 Using MinGW bundled with the Rust Installer seems to make it work
@Prismatic Hmm...I dunno how much you can reasonably expect here. They had code that wasn't working (well at all, anyway), and nobody working on the project is in a position to fix/improve it (or maintain it at all, really). At least assuming they have public repos, the code is still there and available when/if somebody else wants to pick up on its development, but if their choice was between a simpler system they know works, and leaving code in place that's ineffective and untestable, well...
@набиячлэвэлиь just recompile the kern@ell
Why is it untestable?
If you're writing something like systemd you don't get to use the excuse "our dev machines don't use it so we can't test it"
It isn't some tiny amateur project
16:51
their dev systems do use systemd, but they don't have old mechanical drives for that specific part of it.
'old mechanical drives'
They are still pretty common place, especially as secondary drives
Either way you're a multibillion dollar company, if you don't have mechanical drives, acquire them
Anyway this particular issue isn't the whole story, the systemd devs just seem arrogant
@Prismatic Well, it's certainly true that if Red Hat considered it a priority, they could buy hard drives and test with them. It's less certain that this is the best use of resources (especially for a subsystem that apparently never really worked).
17:25
True to his name, Jonathan Beard has a beard.
17:40
@fredoverflow I don't know Java but I love this series
keep up
Hey, we finally know which proposas have been rejected in Jacksonville :D
Yours? :D
j/k
x)
for (auto val1 : range1; auto val2 : range2) { ... } was rejected.
Up-to expressions too.
really? why? thats actually a thing i would have liked having (by that i mean, i need to iterate over the identical length collections recently and i couldnt use ranged for loops)
@Borgleader Because for (auto {val1, val2}: zip(range1, range2)) would be a preferred solution.
17:51
is it really? im not sure why this is preferrable
I guess it's better a separating vals and ranges.
i suspect they just wanted a use case to show off auto {x, y} = a_thing; :P
Even though it won't make it into C++17.
just like everything else har har har
Allowing to drop an enum struct scope for enumerators in a switch statement was rejected too.
@Borgleader The list of things that may still be voted in is quite large actually.
if constexpr, default comparisons, operator., template parameter deduction for constructors (and construction hints), template<auto N>, inline variables, guaranteed copy elision, deterministic evaluation order and alignment-aware new can still be voted in (just for the core language features).
17:58
I'll stop making that "joke" when they do get voted in :)
I bet some of them will be delayed.
There are also some library improvements to be voted, but nothing major.
wait not even binding will make it to C++17? cool
It was proposed too late with too many unsolved questions.
Wait until 2023 for design agreement.
user1804599
> A computer beating a human at chess is about as impressive as a bulldozer winning a weightlifting contest.
I think in hindsight, Hitler was right
18:01
wtf
I mean, regarding C++17
oh, your meme video
yeah
inb4 flagged, banned forever
> Microsoft deletes 'teen girl' AI after it became a Hitler-loving sex robot within 24 hours.
Nice.
The android app for facebook takes forever to install itself wtf
user1804599
18:02
Bjarne was wrong regarding C++.
I need to find that paper by Bjarne about what really must get into C++17
user1804599
A lot of [[deprecated]] attributes.
ah, found
@AndyProwl Aw, I was about to share a link :/
Still, I was surprised today to realize that there was no standard way to get the alignment of a variable ._.
user1804599
18:08
What do you call a sneezing Linus Torvalds?
epollen
@AndyProwl Sorry, no array_view yet.
too bad coroutines aren't even mentioned there
@Morwenn ah, damn
@AndyProwl optional should have the green mark.
also Bjarne's string_view is not what got in anyway
And we got optional :o
user1804599
Coroutines are already in Boost.
user1804599
18:10
I see no reason for them being in the standard.
@Morwenn With or w/o reference support?
@набиячлэвэлиь Same answer as always: I don't know and I don't care (yet).
k, updated
:D
@AndyProwl There's another list here if you want to scribble on it too.
yeah, I figured
18:12
After over an hour of updating apps, and spending 10 min before remembering i have to refresh something in the settings to see the song i bought i can finally listen to it on muh tablet
too much effort
Anyway, time to go. See you either later or another day (or never FWIW).
cheers
That song is sick
user1804599
18:27
RIP
I have questions
Vader: I need new officers. Emperor: What happened to the last ones I sent you? Vader: Emperor: You're an HR nightmare.
lol
user1804599
18:58
Xeo
Xeo
@ThePhD Same thing Naezith does, SFML/C++

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