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10:00
@Morwenn I implement it once and I just include it.
simple.
Anyway, from a core language point of view, C++17 brings less changes than C++14.
Boost.Optional has also been a thing forever.
yeah I know
Well, Boost.Asio too, but people still complain about networking stuff not being in the standard :p
Boost.Asio sucks
it needs a language feature to make it less painful
and we're not even getting that
idk why they're satisfied with the callback inferno
idk who this c0r3ntin dude is but he's cool
@Morwenn Does standard optional support references yet?
Because it's virtually useless until that happens (because you are going to need another implementation that does support references anyway).
10:05
Good morning everyone
@Griwes It's the second time I answer the question this week: I have no fucking idea :p
I dunno
I've never had any need to use optional with a reference.
I can see why you might want to, but I think that there's many uses without
HOW DARE YOU
:D
@Morwenn useless
@Puppy it's more like making the optional<T> case always work in a function template for example.
but yeah I've rarely needed optional references and don't care for them outside of that tidbit
tbh I just wish C++ was nicer for networking in general
It's such a common thing now to interact with the internet :|
Yet it's such a pain in the ass in C++ while other languages do it so much better
It kinda sucks.
it's not really a language issue
it's more of a library issue.
10:10
No.
You need a language feature to leverage the pain of writing networking e.g. coroutines
otherwise the code is a total pain in the ass and you're back to square 1
well I'm looking at the sample code of e.g. ASIO and it's a lot more nasty than it needs to be
like that async_write with the completion handler could just be a future.
"But purrformance!"
futures are useless too because get() blocks
meh
I'm sure you've seen the absurd paper that futures are terrible and callbacks are The Only Way to do things.
Well, there's try_get(), isn't there?
well
we could really use future.then() as well
10:13
And we are supposed to get .then() soon-ish (though it'll suck terribly).
future.then didn't make it
and no there's no try_get
which is terrible, but still a library issue ;p
futures just suck atm
wait what
welcome to C++17
10:14
There's no try_get in standard futures?!
no
en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/thread/future this is the abysmal interface provided
Futures are probably among the things that shouldn't have been put in a TS but solved directly.
user1804599
$datetime = new DateTimeImmutable('2010-01-28T15:00:00+02:00');
$this->assertEquals(
    'Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:00:00 +0200',
    Json::fromDateTime($datetime)
);
user1804599
My first unit test in Hack. \o/
and this interface is what we're staying with in C++17
10:15
personally
6 years after C++11 got released
I've done a little async stuff in JS and some more in C#
and await/async are just not really all that great.
Ugh, I started writing my own futures because of lack of sensible .then (and the terrible semantics that require that stupid promise class to exist...), but if they don't even have try_get, I'm probably never going to move away from my own implementation.
@Puppy JS (particularly node.js) is saved by the fact that there's tools to turn callback-taking functions into future-returning ones.
@Puppy Feel free to say that when you start working with e.g. Boost.Asio
(As in, automatically.)
10:16
Having worked with both I know which I prefer lol
The callback inferno that makes me wanna kill myself is definitely not it >_>
@Rapptz Asio is not only far behind the current state of library support, but it's also way behind the library support in C#.
so it's really not an environment where language features can be compared.
I don't even care if async/await make it in. I just want something related to coroutines.
mmmm; I feel like async/await is actually intuitive (for some definition of intuitive anyway)
it is nice
the viral aspect is the only annoying thing
async/await looks great in tiny sample code
but it can be tricky in larger more useful code
10:18
you have to know what's a coroutine or not
it's quite viral (fuck you, const), and there's a few cases that can be tricky, like when the task fails.
well you can inspect code units in isolation generally
so you have to do await on it
Default comparisons, operator. and constexpr if have been deferred to Oulu. If any of them passes, it will be the biggest C++17 language change.
if you forget to then you messed up
there are a bunch of little issues that over time could get worse
10:18
The funny thing about C++ await proposals is that in reality await becomes >>=.
I've seen the compiler warn me in some cases tho
They are introducing mbind without even noticing it ;_;
"this async method will run synchronously, because <reason>"
fucking monad nerds
we have a Task.Safely() function in our codebase because awaiting on random tasks is not actually safe to do.
10:19
But that is the truth!
but those little issues are worth putting up with if it leads to not having to deal with callback hell
@Griwes It is the truth- we just don't really care ;p
C# async/await is a little dumb imo
I like Python's impl better
I hate ConfigureAwait(false);
@Puppy Which is why C++ is reinventing the wheel every time around (and every time around it makes a mistake somewhere and never ever fixes it).
I need to write more Python - but my pride often gets in the way of writing dynamic languages
10:20
you don't have callback hell in JS (anymore) I feel, and that's mostly because of library features.
I wish C++ was a little bit more like Python
the good parts anyway
personally I'm not a fan of introducing language features to solve a problem when we don't have anywhere near enough library support to know that it's really necessary.
@Puppy range based for HELLO
is it me you're looking for
yes, you are a particularly terrible piece of shit
Range-based for is cool.
10:21
the thing is, it's like C# way of doing things
the C# way was a mistake too.
Too bad it is still broken.
@Morwenn It is.
@Morwenn yeah and can be deprecated the moment you have ranges in the language
@ScarletAmaranth keep dreaming Vivi.
10:22
@Rapptz it's the naked truth, deal with it Dany :P
@Zoidberg Houston, we have line numbers!
it isn't even close to the truth lol
@ScarletAmaranth Lol no.
user1804599
@fredoverflow yay
@Rapptz You're right.
10:23
Niebler already has a proposal to augment range based for to work with his proposal
@fredoverflow The most important feature of every code editor ever :D
we shouldn't deprecate range for the moment we have ranges in the language
and it'll probably make it in
we should never have added it in the first place.
hell it might have already
10:23
@Morwenn Indeed. I'm always enraged when line numbers aren't enabled by default.
It already made it in.
oh I am not saying there is a realistic chance of deprecating it
I am saying it's a completely pointless feature
that "can -> should" be just deprecated
how is it pointless
of course it won't ever happen
@fredoverflow Haha, same. When I'm a bit angry and the editor doesn't deisplay lines I become even more angry :D
10:24
god you guys just confuse me sometimes
it's pointless because it's a core language feature that's equivalent to a single trivial library function, and furthermore, is intimately tied to the library design du jour.
@Rapptz ^ this
it'd be like having a core language feature to push back into a vector.
what trivial library function would that be sempai
BOOST_FOR?
@Rapptz fmap
10:25
well, it's std::for_each but less shit, really.
hides
take std::for_each, add ranges and polylambdas, and job done.
what in the living fuck lol
you can't even break std::for_each
Why does std::for_each return the passed function by the way?
something about retaining function object state
10:26
you're almost as bad as the committee
Oh, it's true than it may have a state.
well, it wouldn't break the existing std::for_each.
apart from anything else, you could just give it a trivially different name, or even just let OR do its job since the new std::for_each would take just two arguments instead of three.
I will at some point be able to remove my IDE-macros for baking iterator pairs
MY LIFE WILL GET A NEW MEANING
The foreach loop is way sexier in the language. At least it looks like a proper control structure unlike the good ol' for :D
10:28
std::for_each is literally the worst algorithm
there is at no point where I think to myself that I should replace a for loop with it
that's because it doesn't have ranges and polylambdas.
No.
It's because constructs like continue or break and proper control flow are completely ruined in std::for_each
polylambdas don't fix that and never will
well, you can continue by returning.
what oh the function
ah so you wonder about early exits?
10:30
besides
not supporting them is 90% of the reason to exist of having an algorithm.
and a lot of their uses can be replaced with the use of other range algorithms
@Rapptz Wanna continue? Pass a filtered range.
and 100% the reason why for-range is useful
need to skip some items? just apply filter first.
Also, I guess that for () { for () { } } is not that trivial to read or write with agorithms.
Wanna break at some point? find_if.
10:31
it's sort of like the stupid whatever_if arbitrary algorithms, right?
man you guys are weird
No, we want to break everything down into manageable pieces.
just filter shit and don't append _if to ARBITRARY shit
I've seen (and written!) some horrid loops with continues and breaks.
I don't want to do that anymore.
of course there is no filter because... fuck you (well there is copy_if)
10:33
Python has better ranges than C++ and I still use break/continue there.
and it isn't "horrid"
quite the opposite
@Morwenn it isn't
Oh, you didn't see the loops I did, did you?
I don't care what loops you saw.
Bad code can exist everywhere.
It's an irrelevant point.
Ell
Ell
Coroutine's are necessary for nice network programming I agree
it can; it's a question of whether it's terrible by default (break/continue) or good by default (range algorithms)
shots fired
10:35
it's almost as if both can coexist together
what a thought
it's almost as if Python and other languages handle it just fine
they could do but there's no purpose since one is pretty much strictly superior to the other.
Not providing a worse alternative is a good thing.
your only criteria for a good thing seems to be "Because Python does it".
but actually Python is pretty shit in this area really.
it isn't but :ok:
other languages don't do it better.
C# fucked it up just as badly.
10:37
I feel like break / continue make me stop for a moment while reading someone's loop; f . filter kind of approach doesn't
Ven
Ven
#per6: sub foo { "OH HAI" }; enum A <b foo c>; say foo; say foo()
it's like goto- the fact that it can do so much is the exact reason why it should burn in hell
Ven
Ven
"continue" in Perl 5 is nice :P.
it has nothing to do with C's "continue", though.
user1804599
  9: new C(42);
     ^^^^^^^^^^ constructor call
  9: new C(42);
           ^^^ string. This type is incompatible with
  4:     constructor(x: number) {
                        ^^^^^^ number
user1804599
WTF Flow. 42 isn't a string.
10:44
typescript master race
when I get back to work I will have the pleasure of performing a TS upgrade.
user1804599
Fucking bullshit.
user1804599
inotify limit reached :|
user1804599
and Flow doesn't tell me about that
user1804599
???????????????????????????????????
11:01
Now polling for the restaurant for dinner, #CppJAX resumes tomorrow
lol
Ven
Ven
> when all you have is a nailgun, every problem looks like a messiah
wow.
11:17
@Rapptz the PoE update is like 8/10 at least
I haven't played PoE in so long
covered in coins and rips
(also crashes last night since they were so many folks on but the say it’s fixed)
> Our server team was investigating almost immediately and the most obvious problem was a series of Out of Memory errors on the Instance Manager, a server that manages the set of game servers that the players play on.
so many players the server is oom
11:30
Why does she look at him like that?!?
> Is she in love with him, or what's going on?
lol
@fredoverflow f# conf if you are interested.
f# looks like the beginning of a swearword ;)
Hey guys just wanted to share presentation I created about undefined behaviour in C and C++
'last programming book you will ever need' https://t.co/UoO2OTiZK1
ergh... i'm already very sick and tired of that image
hope you like it
Ven
Ven
12:07
OSloth
user1804599
12:20
@Ven fuck gulp.
user1804599
Bash > Gulp.
Ven
Ven
12:50
Cool
std::addressof should be constexpr in C++17.
In the end, there are more and more constexpr stuff in the standard library.
user1804599
🇳🇱🇳🇱🇳🇱
Ven
Ven
13:09
> Get your geek on with John Daintree as he has a devil of a time with JSON and Databinding. May contain images of partial nudity...
wtf?
user1804599
Flanders is nice.
user1804599
It's been a long time since I've been there.
user1804599
It's a bit like the Netherlands with inferior road quality and people speaking with funny accents.
user1804599
@fredoverflow F* with Coq
Xeo
Xeo
13:29
Hm. Eat now, or wait and stuff myself with dinner.
user1804599
lol Flow knows about React
Ven
Ven
ofc. both were made by FB
@Xeo Eat a bit now and a bit for dinner
Xeo
Xeo
@AndyProwl yeah, decided to go with some flavoured yoghurt for now
14:06
@Xeo: hi bro
probable repost; "Fixed interface issues"
@Xeo: how r u?
Xeo
Xeo
@Destructor err, hi, who are you?
@Xeo: enthusiastic C++ programmer
@Xeo I have him plonked, beware :P
Xeo
Xeo
14:10
ergh, thanks for the warning
@Xeo: may I ask you for a little more help
OH
its pravasi meet
Xeo
Xeo
"more help" would imply that I've helped you before
oh gawd
(check recent messages)
Xeo
Xeo
isn't that our current resident help vampire?
14:11
it is
Xeo
Xeo
that just randomly pings whoever talked last?
yup
just in the recent messages list that pattern is obvious. useful feature.
Xeo
Xeo
@Destructor No.
@Xeo: but why?
Xeo
Xeo
Because you're annoying
14:13
@sehe Anti-corruption layer may have dangerous side effects
@Xeo: had I asked any unclear question?
@Xeo kick him maybe? we go through this "hi, can i haz help, no, why" cycle everytime =/
Xeo
Xeo
I will do that if he continues being annoying
i can relate
Nice.
user1804599
14:18
@Ven Flow sucks.
Ven
Ven
well well well
user1804599
I'll use TypeScript maybe.
user1804599
It has type definitions for many libraries at least.
user1804599
And it isn't slow as a dog.
user1804599
Even if it catches one bug, it's worth it.
14:23
Wow
The things that managed to mae it into C++ 17
Are kinda dismal.
Ven
Ven
?
> Is there a Bjarne Stroustrup action figure?
wow, I want
together with STL's and Scott Meyers action figures
@milleniumbug Just get a He Man one and youre set for Scott
People complain about future.get blocking...
Is it because they don't have an alternative (e.g. future.then?)
@ThePhD cant you do a wait_for and pass a duration of 0?
14:37
vOv
I have no idea, I don't use futures.
I've barely used them, I compiled 1 or 2 snippets but thats it.
user1804599
user1804599
Great.
Oh damn
I gotta e-mail the person working on template <auto X>
I don't see his features anywhere.
Anybody ever used mvn site
Trying to compare to Google web toolkit
14:49
@ThePhD do you mean Touton's p0127r0? In Kona they asked him to merge it into Concepts TS
user784668
what's the best close reason for "write teh codez for me" questions?
@Cubbi Yes, I did mean that. RIP.
@Fanael custom > "this is a code request"
Wait
WAIT
THERE'S NO NETWORKING
@Fanael I use "too broad" for that
14:54
WHAT HAPPENED
user784668
@ThePhD NETWORK DIED
q___________q
user784668
@Borgleader typing is too much work
user784668
I'd rather ask in the Lounge, duh
user784668
@ThePhD NO NETWORKING WHERE?
14:58
Hey beegees.
Beegees?
Aim foo_thread, changed as above, with re-review from LEWG in Oulu, for C++17?
SF F N A SA
6 5 1 0 0
We might have some kind of auto-joining threads in C++17. I don't fully understand whether it's a new thread type or a scope guard.
Ven
Ven
well, good.
> burritos are just tacoids in the category of enchiladafunctors
Ven
Ven
15:13
OH: If you need a burrito but the people around you don't know what that is, explain it's like a monad.
user784668
Is there any way I can get GCC to emit section-relative addresses in constants?
Ven
Ven
-fPIC?
user784668
@Ven No.
user784668
static int foo;

int* bar = &foo;
user784668
        .type   bar, @object
        .size   bar, 8
bar:
        .quad   _ZL3foo
15:16
Too bad there haven't been news about the bit_iterator proposal :/
user784668
That's an absolute address.
user784668
Well whatever then, I'll just implement a PE relocator.
user1804599
oh god 2MB of JS code
15:32
Hey, I just realized that my indirect_adapter almost provides the strong exception guarantee.
Ven
Ven
so close
yet so far
It's interesting, I guess that I will document it.
moooornin'
Hey :D
user784668
15:37
@Morwenn So it's almost not terrible?
how're you @Morwenn
@jaggedSpire hey~
@Borgleader hey bby
@Fanael Actually providing the strong exception guarantee for sorting algorithms is just a total waste of space.
@jaggedSpire Pretty fine, what about you? :)
user784668
Oh, so it's a sorting algorithm.
15:39
@Fanael you must be new here :P
@Morwenn Just woke up from my weekly sleep binge/hibernation
feeling well rested now :)
@jaggedSpire Did you sleep with polar bears? :D
@jaggedSpire do you uh... not sleep the other 6 days? o.o
@Borgleader I sleep less than I need to the other six days
Ven
Ven
indeed
@jaggedSpire is too busy looking for floofs to sleep
(bad, bad @jaggedSpire)
15:41
@Morwenn sadly no. I do have a red panda stuffed animal on my nightstand though. :)
@jaggedSpire Ask sehe :p
how can I sleep when there are floofs to find?
Ven
Ven
and to cuddle
and now I'm gonna experiment with a recipe
Ven
Ven
cooking without dogs again?
15:42
cuddling floofs is an excellent passtime
yes
I'm altering a cake recipe into something I hope is far more breadlike so this is going to be interesting
Ven
Ven
bread o-o
@Ven it's a mug cake recipe! I'm gonna try to make it into a mug bread recipe
it's gonna fail so horribly :)
Ven
Ven
@набиячлэвэлиь mh?
@jaggedSpire we believe
I have no idea what I'm doing
Ven
Ven
15:47
ITT people learn nobody has an idea what they're doing
"I feel like there should be less sugar in this" "Maybe more flour?" "hmmm I should probably not use cocoa powder"
"I know, I'll just use curry powder and garam masala!"
spice levels seem right from the dough/batter
user1804599
@jaggedSpire Yeah, it sounds like something waiting to fail :D
Just put more yeast in the dough.
@Morwenn It was a bit wet coming out of the microwave so now I'm toasting it ^_^
And watch the world inflate.
Recommend to put variant in C++17? (Will announce but not poll in plenary today.)
SF F N A SA
6 5 3 0 2
15:58
that's actually why I'm doing this--it's a recipe that seems to primarily use baking soda for leavening
it's a very quick mug cake
if this works I will have a very quick mug bread too
Ven
Ven
@Morwenn <3<3<3<3 YAY
@Zoidberg sure :)
but it's not COBOL, so it's not that great.

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