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22:00
> Atmospheric focusing caused blast damage at even greater distances, breaking windows in Norway and Finland.
Why oh why downvoting questions is free.
I want to drown 2 rep.
@Pubby Downloading Linux Mint "Debian" - 201109 Xfce 64-bit now...
Oh hey, there are still morons trolling the Meta question
this one is clearly capable of reading minds
@FredOverflow Cool, good luck
22:09
@FredOverflow Good choice.
@FredOverflow I just installed Ubuntu because that's what all the newbie guides recommended. Running in Virtual Box.
Full disclosure: i'm still on Ubuntu because (a) I know my around (b) I'm too damn lazy
But I won't be upgrading. I'll be off-grading :)
@jalf Can I see it?
I'm on Windows because I'm too lazy.
22:11
^ I like the stage-dive. :-) Among other things.
@RMartinhoFernandes i.
That's astounding
Laziest
@CatPlusPlus I'm on Linux because I'm too lazy to pirate Windows.
3
@CatPlusPlus Frak. My "t" key is broken.
My came with the laptop.
@RMartinhoFernandes That's what happened to me. I can theoretically have all the windows I can handle (company licenses) but I'm too darn lazy to even get that figured out. I ended up googling an XP key the last time around :)
22:12
Now that I think about it, I should finally get that MSDNAA account.
@CatPlusPlus Mine would never 'come' with a laptop, because I will only pay money for quality stuff. -> My systems come without OS
sup
@CatPlusPlus XP, Vista or 7?
Heard good things about 7, but doesn't support most of my hardware :)
22:13
What hardware?
old graphics card, very old sound card, veeery old printer
@ScottW DONT
UAC is golden
@Pubby That is quite impressive. I don't like the gimmick, but she plays all instruments really well
22:14
Why would you want to turn UAC off?
@RMartinhoFernandes meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/124439/… and the comments following it
there are few things I hate more than when people tell me what I think
I'm convinced UAC is the reincarnation of that stupid paper clip
@ScottW You always log in to linux as root too then?
haha yeah
@ScottW How often do you do something that requires you to click that? Are you sure you're not confusing that with Vista?
22:16
@jalf The difference is that UAC impedes usability.
it is just safe
Yeah, it takes 10 minutes to disable UAC then re-enable it - AFAIK it involves 2 reboots. Linux all you have to do is 'sudo'
I have UAC set on always, and it doesn't annoy me at all.
I get the prompt maybe once or twice a day, anyway.
@RMartinhoFernandes I concur: it is needed way too often. I don't care whether that means that dvblink or MediaCenter aren't programmed well. It just means that should have made sure the thing always operates with the keyboard, correctly, and doesn't interfere with fullscreen programs badly etc.
@Pubby On Windows all you have to do is click "yes". You don't need to disable it.
22:18
It's far less annoying than having to type in a password, like with sudo.
@sehe sure. But security is often an annoyance, and this is pretty much the absolute minimum you can get away with
@CatPlusPlus There is a bit of truth there. However, sudo is understimated. There is gksudo too and don't forget about the configurability:
@RMartinhoFernandes On Vista I had to constantly disable it because 'yes' just didn't work. It would just open up a new UAC dialog. Especially common when installing DLLs or having files locked despite not being in use.
4
A: Shell script - Sudo-permissions lost over time

seheThe flexibility of sudo is widely under-estimated. This leads to very poor practices (like the sudo su - canon-ball surgery method). A much better method is to specificly allow the commands you intend to allow without use of a password: phill = NOPASSWD: /bin/ls, /usr/bin/lprm You can optio...

@Pubby See, you're confusing it with Vista.
It's not a problem on 7.
22:19
surprise, broken software is broken. Let's blame the host OS for that. I'm pretty sure not even Vista came with infinite UAC loops out of the box
@RMartinhoFernandes Well. Less of a problem. It's merely an issue now
Not an issue for me.
@sehe What do you spend all day doing that warrants disabling it?
@RMartinhoFernandes I imagine so. Windows just left such a bad taste in my mouth I doubt I'll ever go back.
22:20
you guys may not forget that in vista UAC is level 4 by default, in 7 it is (unfortunately) only 3
And if you have a lot of apps that require elevation then yes, they're crappy and you should get rid of them.
@RMartinhoFernandes Usability :) I am the proud owner of a Windows 7 64bit Media Center PC, so I can tell you it still annoys me.
Oh crap, I need to decide on a Linux file system :)
@CatPlusPlus That sounds like the linux fanboys bitching (If you don't like app X, just install Y from source - or worse)
@FredOverflow just take ext4
22:21
@FredOverflow Go with the Mint, already
It's funny how people always call Windows an insecure OS, despite going to great lengths to disable or override every single security mechanism built into it
@sehe Mint is a distribution, not a file system.
@jalf so true
@sehe Badly written elevated software is a security risk.
@sehe I don't know, "apps that require admin privileges for no reason suck" doesn't sound so controversial to me
22:22
Be it on Linux or Windows.
@ScottW Oh, I hate it, but you won't find me turning it off. It would be a hell of a relief if I could find a way to make some applications start without prompt.
If you'd write crappy setuid app, I'd tell people to not use it, too.
by the way, Steam is the only app I run which fails completely at UAC
I've never had any problems with UAC and Steam.
@jalf I would agree. But AFAICT, I cannot even restart a service without UAC prompt. Is there a way to tell windows that it is alright for anyone to restart my own freakin' service?
22:23
@ScottW It's the norm in Windows that every other application is self-updating. I wouldn't dream of not having UAC with those.
It elevates only worker process that installs prereqs.
Tried running it from a normal (non-admin) user account?
@CatPlusPlus setuid -> crappy by definition
not just an admin account with UAC enabled
Normal accounts on Windows never worked for me.
22:25
@sehe um, maybe. I'm on a mac now, can't test it. I assume you've tried net restart <service>?
@CatPlusPlus Wait. Come again?! Mr. Jekill is that you? Mr. Hyde just said this:
4 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
And if you have a lot of apps that require elevation then yes, they're crappy and you should get rid of them.
Admin account != elevation.
@CatPlusPlus Then what do you need the admin account for if it isn't about permission <grin/>
anyway, isn't the point in services is that they usually run under a different user account and are not part of your specific user session? Then restarting them without an UAC prompt does sem a bit fishy, doesn't it?
Well, I don't really know what the difference between admin and non-admin even is nowadays.
22:26
@ScottW literally...?
At least, I'm running with UAC on and a regular User.
Except that non-admin can't ever elevate.
You shouldn't shit on your computer, with or without UAC
@sehe To not have to input user credentials when a UAC prompt comes up?
I think.
22:27
@CatPlusPlus You can elevate if you provide admin credentials.
Oh, right, passwords again.
@CatPlusPlus the difference is that admin with UAC can be worked around and bypassed fairly easily. :)
@CatPlusPlus Huh. You're not making sense. The difference, in your own words, would be "Normal accounts on Windows never work for me"
Which yeah, probably makes UAC annoying as hell.
anyway, bedtime for me
@ScottW I somehow doubt you know the meaning of the word "literally"
just a guess
22:27
@RMartinhoFernandes Aha. Apparently my system's 'User' user is in some Admin group then. I get only prompts
@jalf um, yes? You get UAC prompts then too. Wouldn't it be a major dumb security flaw if it didn't?
@jalf too true
> When you are logged on to Windows with a standard account, you can do almost anything that you can do with an administrator account, but if you want to do something that affects other users of the computer, such as installing software or changing security settings, Windows might ask you to provide a password for an administrator account.
So, it just makes UAC prompts prompt for the damn password.
So, meh.
I have UAC on maximum, and it uses a secure desktop anyway.
Passwords are annoying.
@CatPlusPlus "it uses a secure desktop" <-- what does that mean (it?)
It means other applications can't interact with that window.
22:31
Oh, I guess you mean that UAC superimposes an isolated windowstation
@sehe His desk held firmly atop four strong pillars.
That is sooooo Windows NT4 :) But kind of nifty indeed.
@RMartinhoFernandes Heh. That is frequently the only proof I can see that I actually have a desk: I can see the legs
@JohannesSchaublitb No riddles?
i commented on this article:
@sehe the riddle is to try and find the error in that text!
two errors at least!
22:33
@JohannesSchaublitb The article or your comment :)
my comment has not been put online yet -.- he seems to be sleeping
I'm pretty sure your comment is pointing the errors out?
@JohannesSchaublitb moderating is the word
@sehe yes i do point it out!
Preapproval is lazy man's spam prevention.
@CatPlusPlus No. Preapproval is not for lazy people.
It requires you to do work.
@JohannesSchaublitb "once an rvalue reference is given a name, it becomes an lvalue reference"
This?
22:35
@sehe The USB stick is being prepared right now :)
@RMartinhoFernandes yes!
sweet, I can crash clang
that's so wrong!
@jalf dash tom bang! I can crash clang!
22:35
I knew that.
and he later says "the variable x in the body of f has type 'int&'" ugh
@JohannesSchaublitb A named rvalue reference is an lvalue, just like any named variable, right?
@FredOverflow the variable x is a reference and its type is 'int&&'
The name is an lvalue.
only the expression that might refer to it as 'x' may be of type 'int' and be an lvalue
in any case, nowhere does the 'int&' type come up at all
22:37
oh wait, my bad
I can make clang come up with an obscure error now!
@JohannesSchaublitb There's so much more wrong there.
clang: error: unable to execute command: Illegal instruction: 4
@jalf Weren't you going to bed 10 minutes ago?
@CatPlusPlus yes, but I just noticed clang had finished building, so I had to try it out quickly ;)
22:38
@CatPlusPlus It's the lounge. People announce going to bed hours before they do.
nowadays ppl can be in bed and continue chatting with their mobile phone
Speaking of which, I'm going to bed.
@JohannesSchaublitb There are both lvalues and rvalues of type int&&.
@FredOverflow nonsense
lol
There are both lvalues and rvalues of type nonsense.
22:39
using nonsense;
int&& x = whatever;   // x is an lvalue, and (int&&)x is an rvalue
@FredOverflow any rvalue and any lvalue can never have type T& or T&&
@FredOverflow yes and both have type "int"
@JohannesSchaublitb So you agree with me after all.
no you said "of type int&&"
Hello
Does anyone here know how to create branch from a branch which is created from another branch in clearcase
@JohannesSchaublitb No, the type is int&&, but it "decays" very quickly to int.
Sounds like you're incepting a repo.
nope
there is no "decaying"
@FredOverflow Has a very short half-life, huh?
@RMartinhoFernandes Repoception.
22:42
if an expression initially has type "int&&", then it is adjusted to be of type "int" prior to any further analysis. if all that is complete, then the expression has type "int".
extern int&& r; static_assert(std::is_same<decltype(f), int&&>::value, "what does this mean?");
Can pointers/iterators to std::unordered_map get invalidated by insertions?
pretty sure, yes
I doubt it.
What about rehashing?
Oh wait, are the original lists reused?
22:45
Oh, right.
> If rehashing occurs due to the insertion, all iterators are invalidated. Otherwise iterators are not affected. References are not invalidated.
11
A: Iterator invalidation rules

Lightness Races in OrbitC++0x (Source: Iterator Invalidation Rules (C++0x)) Insertion Sequence containers vector: all iterators and references before the point of insertion are unaffected, unless the new container size is greater than the previous capacity (in which case all iterators and references are invalidate...

Bookmark it.
How can references be unaffected?
of course if you pick a point prior to the analysis of an expression, then you get to a point where the "expression" still has type "int&&". but that is not a real expression because some rules were not yet applied to it.
Trying to boot Linux Mint Debian from my USB stick, see you later...
@Pubby Only structural pointers need to be adjusted when rehashing.
22:46
@RMartinhoFernandes that static_assert holds, because decltype(f) does not inspect an expression
but it inspects the type of an entity
@RMartinhoFernandes I still don't understand.
if you say decltype((f)) then it inspects the expression, but it does not yield the bare type of the expression. it adds a "&&" if it is an xvalue, and an "&" if it is an lvalue.
so to get the type of an expression, "decltype" can only be used if it is followed by a "remove_reference"
and if it uses ((...))
@RMartinhoFernandes I bookmarked it. I still forgot. aren't there two versions? C++03 and C++11?
@Pubby The values remain in the same place. They don't get copied over to some other place. Only the linked lists in the buckets needs updating.
@sehe Yes, there are two answers.
the type of the variable "int &&x;" is "int&&". the type of some objects are not known at compile time. in this case "decltype" cannot be computed
22:49
@RMartinhoFernandes Amazing work by Tomalak, that. I think he duplicated that on his blog too
@RMartinhoFernandes Ok, I think that makes sense
but current implementations solve that problem by interpreting the standard slightly differently, and instead yield the declared type of the object in such cases, instead of the actual type of the object
@JohannesSchaublitb I see.
Gah, people and atoi.
Why does this function still exist.
22:50
How do you pronounce "atoi"?
@RMartinhoFernandes for example: struct A { int a; };. If you do const A a = {}; then the member subobject a.a has type int const.
@RMartinhoFernandes Ey two eye?
but the spec's intent is that decltype(a.a) is int. so we shall not yield the type of the entity but the declared type of the entity
@RMartinhoFernandes "💩".
22:50
I say aye-toy-eye
@CatPlusPlus lol
now if you do the same using new A const you can easily construct cases where the constness of the member subobject depends on runtime data
@RMartinhoFernandes à toi! (That's French)
@sehe That would be something like "ah twah".
@RMartinhoFernandes Right back à toi!
22:52
or if you just do A const *x = &a; ... decltype(x->a). at compile time it is impossible to now what type the entity that x->a denotes has.
@JohannesSchaublitb finished changing that yet? :P
lol
now you see how i put up all my answers xD
haha
only that noone spots it HAHA
@JohannesSchaublitb I don't get it. When is it not int?
22:56
5 mins ago, by Johannes Schaub - litb
@RMartinhoFernandes for example: struct A { int a; };. If you do const A a = {}; then the member subobject a.a has type int const.
I would have thought there's only one A::a entity.
(Not that I disagree that a.a has type const int.)
an object that is a member exists multiple times depending on how many times you instantiate its class
Huh, I'm playing with chat CSS and have just noticed the corners on message containers are rounded.
@LucDanton but ... we have an ambiguity here
the entity that decltype must yield the type of can be multiple things.
Also, making font monospaced everywhere, including input! No more aligning blind!
22:59
it can be "object" and "class member"

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