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Ell
12:00 PM
@Mr.kbok sucks man
 
@Mgetz (a) what is it (b) it's only the directors of the propaganda
 
@KevinC You gave me a link to function composition?
Hmm
 
2 mins ago, by Mgetz
@TonyTheLion http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/look-inside-putins-massive-new-military-command‌​-and-con-1743399678#_ga=1.210747030.2012769604.1421152153
 
@GregorMcGregor it worked
 
I was thinking of doing audio I/O on a seperate thread using CreateThread.
 
12:01 PM
Got a lift this morning, took me 1h to get to work instead of 2 :)
 
@Jefery Yes. I conclude that function composition is an appropriate term. Do you agree with that now?
 
@Mr.kbok :D
 
@KevinC Appropriate term for what?
 
@KevinC whwhwhwhw give it a rest
@Jefery (nesting) function invocations
Hint: it's not
 
@Jefery Nested function calls.
 
12:02 PM
@Borgleader :) <3 :)
 
> When it comes to computers, the new center is said to only utilize Russian-built computer components so as to limit the chances of espionage and cyber intrusion.
 
@KevinC a "function composition" (read that as: composed function) does something really similar to nested function invocations. But that's about as far as it goes
 
@KevinC So wait. In your blog you claim that nested function calls are function composition. I tell you I don't think it is and give you a link to function composition where it tells you that it's a different thing. Next day you give me the same link and claim that you were right all along?
 
@Griwes that's actually reasonable.
 
@Jefery I think that it wasn't the same link as the one you gave me.
 
12:04 PM
How does opinion come into simple things like that
 
@Griwes France's nuclear submarine was notorious for running windows 95. I'm not very comfortable with the idea.
 
@Jefery Here is it again: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
 
@KevinC either it is or it isn't the same link
 
Yes, because Intel does everything to detect being used in a Russian command center and if a CPU detects that it starts to siphon all the data out. Yes. Definitely.
 
@sehe Do I have to search for it? If I remember, it was this link which he gave to me: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
 
12:05 PM
 
Ell
@KevinC I think you are confused slightly
nested function calls yeild the value of one function applied to another function applied to a value
 
@Mr.kbok one of them or e.g. a whole class of them?
 
@Ell Ok, in which way? What am i confused about?
 
Ell
function composition yields a new function
 
@KevinC (it's the same as the one above)
 
12:07 PM
I wonder why RAII isn't called RRID
 
@BartekBanachewicz You are begging the question
 
@KevinC no, again, it's not correct
 
@Jefery Sorry, copy- paste error. HEre is your original link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function_composition
 
I hate when you do that
 
@LucDanton scratch that, it's the carrier
 
12:07 PM
@KevinC Yup
But yeah, what Ell said
 
@Jefery excuse me?
 
Should have a type for finite floats.
 
or rather
RRID is the more important part, at least in C++ context imho
 
@KevinC No you don't. And you just posted that link
 
@Mr.kbok so did american tanks until MS basically upgraded them to win 8 and now win 10 embedded for free
 
12:10 PM
>Programmers frequently apply functions to results of other functions, and almost all programming languages allow it.
>In some cases, the composition of functions is interesting as a function in its own right, to be used later.
 
@Ell There are, obviously, two uses of the term 'function composition'. One in mathematics, other one in programming. So, you keep giving me one of those and ignoring the other. Doing that does not constitute a valid argument.
 
Those are two separate statements
@KevinC no, there are OBVIOUSLY not two uses
 
@Mgetz I thought most people on SE use win 7 ... there was a survey somewhere
 
@BartekBanachewicz You already have the answer from the most authoritative source. Stop wondering
 
Ell
@KevinC I disagree - we use function composition in the "mathematical" (your words) meaning in programming often
 
12:11 PM
@BartekBanachewicz What do you think I'm confused about that message?
 
Ell
I mean I suppose you can use that term
 
14 hours ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
function composition in principle is a function
 
@Ell Your statement is irrelevant. Im arguing that the term 'function composition' is also used in the other meaning often.
 
@Jefery no idea
 
Ok
 
12:11 PM
@Mgetz there's a win10 embedded?
 
@KevinC and we're arguing it's not.
 
I don't know why people prefer to use win 8 over win 7, microsoft probably would push for win8 or win10 because they can sell more stuff through those OS
 
Ell
but I think saying "nested function calls" is preferable
 
@KevinC Wrongly used? Possibly :P
 
@KevinC nope. Math never came into to this (except for the history). You are the one who "feels" this makes it different, but you haven't provided any argument other than that "feeling"
 
12:12 PM
I guess virtual desktops are a cool thing to have aboard a tank :p
 
@Jefery It's obviously Resource Release is Destruction.
 
they just renamed it to take advantage of hype
 
You said you had no idea
 
lol
 
12:13 PM
@Jefery only now I've remembered you're having a war on acronyms those days
 
Ell
Okay, argument 1 by me: you avoid this kind of confusion (between the supposed two definitions of "function composition")
 
@KevinC It's not new. You've been told that yesterday. Really. Step back. Think. Take a rest. Bye
 
I vote you be banned from posting anything anywhere before actually doing the research to confirm the terms you are trying to use.
 
internet of things does not make sense
 
@BartekBanachewicz RRID has been used only 2 other times in this chatroom in a span of 5 years.
 
12:13 PM
@BartekBanachewicz It's SBRM actually
 
@chmod666telkitty Thanks. We'll let the governments know
 
It's not a common term. Maybe specifying what you mean by that is helpful.
 
Radio fRequency ID
 
@sehe you would? how? @_@
 
@Mr.kbok ICMB
 
12:14 PM
@Mr.kbok Actually, it's CFR
 
@BartekBanachewicz ICBM
 
@Mr.kbok bah, that's what I meant. Typo.
 
Ell
@KevinC I just really thing using "function composition" for "nested function calls" is just going to confuse people
 
@KevinC no, it doesn't, you're misreading it
 
@BartekBanachewicz oh
 
12:15 PM
@KevinC Stop it now. You will be kicked if you're just keeping running around in circles refusing to open your eyes. You're making too much noise. Thank you
 
In french CMB means "comme ma bite" which is the counterpart of "like your mom"
 
@KevinC Where specifically?
 
@Mr.kbok wow so rude
 
Ell
@KevinC for example, just try googling "function composition tutorial c++" or "function composition tutorial <insert language here>"
 
guys, did you know that two simple words can make you quite uncomfortable?
degloved penis
 
12:16 PM
@LucDanton I am :)
 
Ell
first 3 results are all talking about the "mathematical" definition
 
@orlp Actually, I'm already physically uncomfortable at "degloved"
 
Ell
actually, there are two types of articles, one that talks about the "mathematical" use of "function composition", and other ones talking about composition of objects picked up from google not being so good
 
@KevinC Do they even talk about direct nesting of function application?
 
Because the article is not about nested function calls.
Gee.
 
12:18 PM
^
 
Ell
I am quite convinced this guy is trolling at this point
 
Common sense much?
 
@KevinC So the lack of "nested function calls" or anything similar in an article about "function composition" is the proof that functional composition can be used to mean "nested function calls"?
 
@Ell I believe it's just strong Dunning-Kruger.
 
@sehe Maybe that's excessive. "Think it the way I say or fuck off" is not exactly the best approach.
 
12:20 PM
@KevinC pfffft. I don't like to be harassed
 
threts
 
@Jefery Maybe it is
 
It's a warning.
 
Ell
@KevinC Did you try googling "function composition tutorial c++"?
 
It's a strong suggestion to change behaviour
 
12:21 PM
Most people dislike being kicked without warning.
 
Ell
That will clearly tell you what the most used definition is
 
it’s not a threat once it’s carried out
 
@Ell inb4 cinches tutorial
 
@KevinC I'm not satisfied with your interpretation of the wikipedia article. Not the article itself.
 
@KevinC it's an indication to do exactly the opposite
 
12:21 PM
@LucDanton Is that a threat? :)
 
yes
 
@KevinC How is it an indication?
 
930
Q: Why is "using namespace std;" considered bad practice?

akbiggsI've been told by others on numerous occasions that my teacher was wrong in saying that we should use using namespace std; in our programs. Hence, we should use std::cout and std::cin and these are more proper. However, they did not even make it clear ever why this is a bad practice. Why is usin...

done
 
12:22 PM
@KevinC Have you found books in that list using it?
 
We don't need more noise.
@Jefery No doubt... :( Failing appeal to authority, I presume
 
One man's noise is another man's treasure.
@KevinC Which ones?
 
@TonyTheLion <3 <3 <3
 
@Jefery Oh. Well then. I'll go. Maybe plink me when the war is over
 
@sehe You could plonk me, Kevin and Ell for a while
 
12:24 PM
no, just move out to another room
 
@Jefery You make it seem like no one else is involved. Open eyes
 
@Jefery Bjarne is a well-known advocate of using namespace std; in teaching materials.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ugh
 
once you got std, you are doomed :'(
 
Like I said. Failing appeal to authority
 
12:25 PM
@BartekBanachewicz no
 
@Jefery that's not an answer
 
Come on. What happened to civil discourse. @Jefery
 
do you need plain words damn it
move that shitty discussion out of here because no one gives a single flying fuck about another terrible C++ book idiots will buy
is that a clearer suggestion
 
@KevinC Yeah Stroustroup is not very good at C++ :P
 
@KevinC Sadly, I am not. Your memory is even worse than mine then. Stop assuming things that make sense to you (due to ignorance)
 
12:26 PM
tabs vs SO
 
@Jefery Now clearly you are the troll. Start a room, or take a break
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, and I won't comply. Sorry.
ITT everything is trolling
 
can anyone kick jefery pls
 
lol
 
@sehe stahp thretening seshe
 
12:27 PM
I would if I was a room owner at this point
 
@Mr.kbok huh
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz that's why you're not a room owner :P
6
 
^
 
@sehe (trolling)
 
@Jefery Look at what you're saying bub.
 
12:27 PM
I was joking
 
@sehe I'm making fun of his typing
 
@Ell I disagree, but w/e
 
#define string std::string
 
The ":P" thingy was there to disambiguate that
 
12:28 PM
hi @набиячлэвэлиь
 
@KevinC Fine. Talk to @sbi then.
I've heard he is the guy maintaining that wiki.
 
11 messages moved to bin
 
:27002811 oh wow
 
@sehe see he did it again
 
dang
 
12:29 PM
Not again
 
No more threats
 
too slow
:D
 
threts
 
frets
 
you have to keep on sweeping ... those leftovers :x
 
12:29 PM
What's the point of binning older messages?
 
breasts
 
You have just broken the old discussion flow
 
@Jefery sending a message
 
@Jefery @Jefery No, the procedure is that I have t argue it here, you said it yesterday.
 
12:30 PM
seshe thretening to push derete butan
 
So now people reading the transcript won't make a sense of it all
 
Yeah
I wouldn't have binned either
 
@Mr.kbok alright, it was fun the first two times, now it's irritating
 
@orlp What message?
 
@Kevin your book will be added when people start praising it.
Are there any reviews published?
 
Ell
12:31 PM
^this
 
@Griwes Everything about this conversation is irritating.
 
Binning his older messages doesn't affect him at all. It only affects future readers of the transcript.
 
@Kevin what audience is your book aimed towards?
 
Ell
StackOverflow is not a place for advertising yourself
 
A variant of Wikipedia's no original research criteria.
 
Ell
12:31 PM
I think there is a rule on that
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Three reviews, two 5stars made by accounts that only reviewed that particular book in the span of a week.
 
oh wow, got a grin on my face.
 
@edition quick, grab a newspaper and smack it off
 
Months after the first one
 
@Elim where?
 
12:32 PM
@edition 1. Talented primary shcool students (mostly the last few final grades) 2. High school 3. University. 4. Other programming beginners. WIde audience.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Of course, Amazon.
 
well, I disagree with that book right from the title
teaching beginners programming using C++ is just cruel and inefficient
 
Wide audience doesn't like C++
 
Funny. "as the arithmetic is not trivial enough for them"
 
just ask Puppy
 
12:34 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Tem arithmetic is not trivial enough for who?
 
Ell
@orlp not sure I agree with that
 
> In most cases, “Updated to C++11 or C++14” is just a marketing gimmick and nothing more. In no way does it guarantee that the materials are truly modern and up-to-date.
OTOH if something is NOT updated to at least C++11, chances are it's terribly outdated.
 
@AndyProwl lol
 
@Ell what does C++ have to offer over Python to beginners?
 
Ell
@orlp static typing
#rekt
 
12:36 PM
@Ell why would a beginner care about static typing?
 
Boom
 
Yeah, people should learn statically typed languages first.
 
for them it's only a hassle
 
Headshot
 
Otherwise they just hurt themselves.
@orlp Err, no.
 
Ell
12:37 PM
@orlp you're kiddin' me right?
 
Runtime type errors are a hassle.
 
Ell
static typing makes it easier
you get errors much sooner
 
@Grives "
OTOH if something is NOT updated to at least C++11, chances are it's terribly outdated.". That is true, but if the cover says' updated for C++11", that doesn't guarantee quality. That is also true and that is what I said.
 
Beginners don't distinguish xtime errors
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes this
 
12:37 PM
@orlp So that he doesn't grow up to be a native of the SO Python room.
 
I feel a refreshing and original discussion coming up; or maybe two or more of them!
 
@KevinC It doesn't guarantee it, so why even mention it?
 
@Griwes because marketing works
 
Yeah, fucking Scott Meyers and his C++11+ marketing tricks. :P
 
Ell
Maybe beginners don't consciously notice the difference between runtime and compile time
but I'm sure that the benefit from compile time instead of runtime
 
12:38 PM
@orlp I think the people that perceive it to be a hassle are the ones who will/should never be (C++) programmers
7
 
@sehe <3
 
Maybe because his book isn't "updated to C++11", so he tries to make all the ones that are look like shit by putting it in an article about how to distinguish a BAD book?
 
@Griwes Because beginners might get a sense that they are buying a modern book, while they might actually getting an old book with a few changes.
 
@LucDanton hey it's been up for quite some time already
 
Does the book actually have those "Copyrighted material" banners, or is that just overlaid on the picture on Amazon?
 
12:39 PM
what kind of thing would you install windows 10 on
 
@Griwes That is false, look at chapter on arrays.
 
Ell
/* Global nul-content Null pool.  Enlarge as necessary. */
/* TODO This really should be a extern HB_INTERNAL and defined somewhere... */
static const void *_NullPool[(256+8) / sizeof (void *)];
^nice :V
 
that's a weird idea imo
 
Ell
It seems odd to have a pool of nul values
 
Ell
12:39 PM
But I suppose there must be a reason
 
@LucDanton ROFL
 
I think all you guys should be a bit less hostile, and @KevinC should be a bit less defensive
 
I love that dry wit
 
@Ell so... we don't know right :D
 
12:40 PM
either way, I don't believe static typing to be harmful for beginners
 
@orlp Thank you, orlp, it seems to me that some respect is needed in this discussion.
 
but C++'s type system is not desirable anyway
 
@Ell not if the program uses fixed size pools everywhere and this is just the NullObject pattern
 
For marketing you should add 'Updated to C++11 and modules'
 
@KevinC yeah, I don't believe that; I'll look for further proof that that's how it is, but until then I'll stick to my own perception of this (because what others say doesn't matter, right? that's basically what you were saying)
 
12:41 PM
@KevinC Both ways.
@KevinC To be fair I think at least the site looked very nice to me. It's probably a fine resource (I haven't read it, so I can't vouch for it).
 
@sehe Both ways, I agree.
 
Cheers
 
What's hostile to beginners is undebuggerness.
Fuck C++
 
IME, when someone has to put someone else down to appear better, something is wrong. Not to mention wasted words on someone who has no idea what you're talking about.
 
speaking for yourself
 
12:42 PM
Ok, one more thing, people. I'm terrible on this chat. I'm sorry if I can't reply to everyone. I try to keep a discusion with a small number of people going. If I dont answer a question or proposal immediately, try asking a bit later.
 
C++ is a suboptimal language for beginners
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What got you so grumpy? :*(
 
but honestly the language isn't the biggest problem
 
Ell
@sehe hmm. I think this is the case
 
@Borgleader He broke his copy/paste.
 
12:43 PM
the biggest problem is the tooling
 
@KevinC you can always start your own room
 
FWIW, your book doesn't pass my Amazon litmus test of C++ quality.
Amazon says people who viewed it also viewed amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0672335670/…
 
@LucDanton The procedure for addig a book on the 'definitive book list' involves talking to people in this room, as I have been informed.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes they should rename that book
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You can read his tutorials from which the book spawned, there are microtransactions and everything.
 
12:43 PM
@KevinC yes, but you can always start your own room
 
"Teach yourself C++ in 10,000 days!"
 
@LucDanton Can I? do I have enough ' reputation?
 
> This guide for absolute beginners will take you on an amazing journey through the world of computer programming.
 
@KevinC I’m not up to date on rep privileges, I’m not quite sure
 
"beginners", "amazing [journey]" and "programming" in one sentence
 
12:44 PM
@набиячлэвэлиь Oh god... ABORT ABORT
 
@Borgleader But wait! Thare's more!
 
If I capture a pointer by value in a lambda and I use that lambda way further down the road is the behaviour well defined as long as the pointer that is captured is still pointing to a valid object upon calling the lambda?
 
@KevinC There you go. I'll make you owner when you're there
 
@JameyD Yes, as long as the pointed-to object isn't dead it's OK
 
12:45 PM
@JameyD Why wouldn't it?
 
@Jefery Just.. double cheking
checking*
Thanks
 
@sehe Ok, that is nice. But - my actual proposal was not only to discuss the book, but also to discuss it's inclusion in the 'definitive c++ books' list.
 
Currently debugging NaNs.
 
@sehe Now move all related messages there and be free of the disease
@R.MartinhoFernandes rip
 
16 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@Kevin your book will be added when people start praising it.
 
12:47 PM
@KevinC I'll add it myself once I see good reviews.
 
@набиячлэвэлиь lel. You're welcome to help out. You never saw this interface
 
@KevinC that will happen when someone you didn't request or hint to adds it to that page, no earlier
 
@sehe I did once, never again
 
anything else and it's self promotion and spam
 
@набиячлэвэлиь Glad you understand
 
12:48 PM
@Griwes The Sun is the only thing worth praise
 
the earth isn't? GET OUT OF HERE!
 
IMHO, there is a pretty good reason why the "no previous programming experience" book section is empty. They're all shit.
 
>people who don't get DS jokes
 
I saw the ones on Amazon and two of them don't even have proper sentences so I hope you understand my reluctance to accept them at face value.
 
> >books
> >lacking proper sentences
how even...?
 
12:50 PM
Many books in the list have ACM reviews and stuff
@набиячлэвэлиь I mean the reviews
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah
 
> This book have many example and not too thick to study. I like it! The author like explain to me.. Simple learning.. If you want to learn c++ for intro, it's good .. This book cover c and c++ language basics. If you want to learn more theory, read other book together.
I am not going to read Kevin's book, but whatever this guy writes, I'm buying.
 
Yeah, that's praise, but it's spam you can see on almost every beginner's book because it's so damn unspecific.
 
> * C++ language employed in a beginner-friendly fashion.
 
(Also, beginners are not particularly good judges for obvious reasons)
 
12:53 PM
inb4 char*s=NTBS;
 
Books on C++ for beginners are hard, C++ is hard
 
Ell
@ElimGarak god, those ellipses
 
It should be standardized in the Lounge FAQ or whatever, as we're listed as the "authority" on that question, so that these shitposting discussions don't happen. But some 50+ overwhelmingly positive reviews should be the minimum for addition.
 
12:53 PM
@ElimGarak It's like "~burp~ It was good. I think I'll get some burgers later" when the chef asks whether everything was ok
 
@sehe The chef, like... Explain to me.
 
> ~burp~
 
@ElimGarak I don't think reviews are too reliable. Especially when they are under 1'000
 
lol
@Jefery also internet
 
That list is designed to genuinely help people interested in learning C++, not as a marketing platform for someone who's looking to cash in on the traffic.
 
12:55 PM
^^^^
 
Xmas is one of the most awful time in the year, I have to endure hats on so many sites (two of them to be more exact). What with the internet sites & their freaking Xmas hats! Just like I have to endure that no funny Friday video.
 
@Jefery detailed reviews are good even in small quantities, though.
 
Fun sponge
 
Hi again, back from lunch
 
@Jefery Why aren't you in that room? Now I can't make you own the place
 
12:56 PM
@Rerito who did you eat
 
@orlp I'm very tempted to answer "I ate out your mom" to that question, but I'll refrain myself :p
 
@Rerito you still did
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes My condolences. I had to do that a few weeks ago, but on a GPU. That shit is not fun.
 
Still, I ate some rabbit thighs with pasta, carrot and other stuff
 
@sehe I don't actually care about his book being added to the list. I just hated that people were ignoring him so I tried to address him the best I could. Then the discussion about whether other books in that list have using namespace std;started, which was interesting to me. But that was it.
 
12:58 PM
And given the weight of the names in that list, Kevin Compton sticks out like a sore thumb. Not to mention that Scott Meyers didn't register on SO solely for the reason of self-pitching his books to that question. I believe the wording is broken on the question itself, telling people to show us good books here. The simplest rule would be: "You can't be the author of the book." First step of QA.
 
NaNs fixed
 
You guys should definitely buy my snake oil, btw.
 

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