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23:00
so google tries to preview code documentation stuff now from within the search engine
its as useless as you might imagine
Fuck. I have to wake up in 8 hours.
@Nooble Soon. :P Also, books imply shaking down people for money. It's going to be completely digital and free of all disease. :P
I wonder how websites feel about google repro-ing content like that
Not enough sleep.
@Jefery so go to sleep :D
23:01
@melak47 My head is not ready :(
I like how Kevin registered 6 hours ago, answered 5 questions to get enough rep to get a chance of pitching his book to the Lounge. Man, that's dedication. It should be rewarded with at least a plonk.
Leave the guy alone
@ElimGarak Pretty dedicated indeed
@Jefery By the way, Add is pure under right preconditions. But preconditions are explained after the functions are introduced (because you can't do otherwise)
@ElimGarak "Why DirectX is the best, and other tales of graphics stuff -- Elim Garak"
23:01
hey c++ guys
@KevinC Right
@BartekBanachewicz hey Haskell guy
How are the monads treating you today?
can i put implementations of fully specialized template functions in another TU?
lol
23:02
I don't like monads.
@KevinC traitor :P
inb4 they are not simple and beginner friendly
Ok, have to go for a quick pause.
@BartekBanachewicz they are kind of abstract to understand
@KevinC only of the Li variaty
23:03
@TonyTheLion that's the point you know
I had to bend my mind in ways it hadn't been bent before, in order to understand monads
and that's what's supposed to happen
Monads are simple
they abstract over things no other thing abstracts over
@BartekBanachewicz I achieved everything then I guess
23:04
specifically control flow
@BartekBanachewicz of course. They won't inline unless LTO
Least Transparent Object?
@sehe ok, that was a warmup round. What about implementations with non-type template parameters?
I swear you guys...
Link Time Optimization
23:04
@ElimGarak WOULD DEFINITELY DONATE $1.
Ell
Ell
Oh @ElimGarak hi
You guys and your fucking unnecessary acronyms
@BartekBanachewicz that's a steep claim. Are you sure about this? I thought there was a whole slew of these beasts
Ell
Ell
I'd like to ask for your help
I'm gonna kill someone one of these days
23:05
@BartekBanachewicz No difference
@Jefery Well, typing that out takes too much time :P
@Ell sup
@sehe okay, no conventional programming thing
@Nooble You need to pay that $5 first :P
@Nooble No donate buttons will be available :P
Nor pay buttons. :P
Ell
Ell
I'm trying to calculate eigenvectors from eigenvalues
23:05
@BartekBanachewicz Ok thanks. I was asking because I've been evading monads, still
@ElimGarak "Never favour writing over reading". There apply this simple principle to chat messages as well.
Ell
Ell
Its a 3x3 matrix
@ElimGarak Please donate your love to this lion here
user1804599
fap
@sehe you should totes read this blog about them (no not really) :D
23:06
@Ell so confus :s
@ElimGarak name of the book?
Ell
Ell
So I've set up an equation like matrix*[x,y,z] = eigenvalue*[x,y,z]
@BartekBanachewicz Leaving it open for tomorrow
user1804599
@Ell use Eigen
or blitz++ or ublas or...
23:07
@sehe hint in case it was unclear: it's by me.
Ell
Ell
And then I've multiplied the LHS
and it's a peculiar PoV on monads that was targetted at LRiO
It was clear. Leaving it open still. Haha. You can take it offline
template variables are cool
Ell
Ell
So I have matrix=eigenvalue[x,y,z]
23:07
What's that book thingy about?
Ell
Ell
And I'm just not sure how to proceed from here
@Morwenn dead trees
holy pants who is Kevin C and why does he hate newbies?
@sehe hardly, since you can just fork/clone gh repo this resides in :)
@Ell fap :)
23:08
now we can finally have int_<3>() wihout the ().
@TonyTheLion Abstract Scarred Trees?
@Nooble is that you
@BartekBanachewicz oh god. I dunno what's worse, Cinch writing at teenagers-with-attention-disorders or Bartek writing at pedantic warlords
@TonyTheLion In your heart. <3
23:08
@BartekBanachewicz I must be quick
would a book about dead trees be the most deliciously ironic thing ever
@nick Nope.
@nick the Noobles are duplicating
@jaggedSpire <3 <3 <3
user1804599
> joomal
23:08
@jaggedSpire It's like cancer but good.
@nick You broke your escape key. The keycap is drifting through your avatar as we speak
@jaggedSpire there is only one true Nooble
@jaggedSpire they errywhere
Can I have folders for my repos on github?
@TonyTheLion (I'm at work between 3PM and 12AM UTC these days)
23:09
@jaggedSpire ohh nice
rather, those are the limits of when I might be at work
@StackedCrooked why leaky? Is std::string not good enough?
@Ell Uhm... You do realize that you should be left with a vector, not a square matrix on lhs? :D Mv = eigenvalue*v(i prefer column vectors).
I'm tired of std::string.
4
@StackedCrooked I'm tired of being tired of std::string
23:10
@StackedCrooked Have you tried std::wstring? :P
@StackedCrooked ...you're strung out?
:D
don'thurtme
@ElimGarak once a long time ago. not my thing :D
@jaggedSpire Good one.
23:11
Some of these perks are irresistable, right
Ell
Ell
@ElimGarak oh. I didn't realise. And I'm not sure why
@StackedCrooked stay std::strong
@Jefery Ok, is there a place where a more serious and dignified discussion can be had? And is there a place where I could post my proposal. I want other C++ pedagogy 'experts' and whoever is responsible for that list to turn me down if they want to, but I would like to have a few serious written opinions (they can be short, but at least an argument or two).
Ell
Ell
Also I forgot my ^T on my vectors, they were mrant to be columns, my bad
If nothing else, it will be for my own sake and then I at least it will be clear to me why all beginners are going for Python (whih, in my opinion is not as good for beginners as C++ is)
23:12
Wow. Power of habit
@KevinC Cough. Are you cinch?
@sehe confirmed
we have a confirmed Cinch sighting in sector 10?
Ell
Ell
@ElimGarak ah wait youre right of course
I just can't read
Whats a nespresso
HOW TO BE CINCH
Ell
Ell
23:13
Yeah I'm left with vector = eigen*[x,y,z]^T
Forming a system of homogeneous equations
So I'm supposed to in turn substitute each eigenvalue and then solve for something
Why are you doing this at 11 pm at night?
Ell
Ell
But solve for what? :S
@TonyTheLion because I'm a badlet and I left it till last minute :/
oh ell oh ell
@Ell I'd imagine your task is to find the eigenvalue :P
Ell
Ell
I have the eigen values
I just need eigenvectors
23:15
nice kitteh
kat :3
@Borgleader @jaggedSpire this little hopper <3
Ell
Ell
For example
@ScarletAmaranth Why are the linked Demos so ridiculously good though
@TonyTheLion so fluffeh
Ell
Ell
23:17
4x + y = 6x so
y = 2x
Well, the eigenvector is simply the eigenvalue scaled v. :P
careful with egienvectors, they might not be well defined.
user1804599
I need an anvil dropper.
@TonyTheLion :D
23:17
@sehe linked Demons?
@Elyse ACME anvil co
@KevinC Not that I know of.
Ell
Ell
So eigen vectors are in the form (2a, a)
@ElimGarak oh my bad again :S I mean I need to find unit eigen vectors
@BartekBanachewicz That you know of, are there talks or papers that expand on this context limiting thing that you talk about in your blog post?
Something along the lines of "Monads in practice".
23:20
@Jefery this for example, 7.29.1.2 specifically
@Jefery So, the 'definitive' list of C++ books is based on - popular books which many people have been reading. Noone is seriously revising it? The entire 'ask on chat' is actually an excuse?
I stopped taking you seriously after the double / int thing
user1804599
Rationals are underrated.
What an irrational thing to say
Ell
Ell
23:22
@ElimGarak it's not though is it, because an eigenvector is a vector and an eigenvalue is a scalar
@KevinC The wiki is maintained by people of this room and it is updated enough. For example many books have been added or updated for C++11 and C++14. If you were to modify the wiki yourself, I think many of us would find it not very respectful, so discussing and convincing people here is a prerequisite to having your book inserted in that list.
Ell
Ell
I mean I suppose it is
@KevinC It's meant for great books written by respected people in the C++ community. Just like you can't write a book on graphics after you read a few tutorials.
Ell
Ell
it's the unit eigen vectors I'm trying to find
can I make only a specialized template type a friend?
Ell
Ell
23:23
but at the minute I can't find any eigenvectors :V
@Ell Eigenvalue is a scalar, eigenvector is a vector. A unit eigenvector would be an eigenvector that's been simply normalized. Can you share your problem in any form so we can provide specific assist?
Ell
Ell
Yes
@BartekBanachewicz you can make a completely unspecialized template a friend also, just no partial specialization.
Ell
Ell
but I can't get any eigenvectors at the minute :P
@ElimGarak yeah gimme a min
Problem here is that nobody knows you, nobody read your book, very few are interested in doing apparently. You are not starting well, that is.
23:25
@jaggedSpire bah. why no partial?
I've starred your messages for visibility. People will read it, but don't expect all of us to engage with you for it.
There's no standard procedure for adding a book to the list. It's just kind of discussed and if it convince the right amount of people then it's added.
It's not a fair process, but hey.
user406009
@TonyTheLion Nah.
user406009
People have been saying shit for ages.
23:26
oh
lol
user406009
And civilization hasn't collapsed yet.
user406009
See for instance: superstition
user406009
So now, ironically, it looks like you are the one spreading incorrect things :P
well, it wasn't incorrect inasmuch as it was incomplete
23:28
@ElimGarak I didn't read any tutorials. I'm self taught, since 1990 (I got internet in 2000). I went on IOI 98, won a bronze. I am an author of a dozen of problems for Croatian Informatics Competiotion for high schools, on a state level. I was a teacher for 2 years for an university 101 programming course.
Croatia.
Croatia.
@ElimGarak A place.
A country.
A man. A plan. A canal. Panama.
23:29
@BartekBanachewicz Thanks
user406009
I don't think this chat has any power over what goes on that book list anyways ...
@Lalaland sbi does.
@Lalaland which book list?
@BartekBanachewicz looks like the standard just says so, without any elaboration. All I can find is speculation that it would cause ambiguity in certain situations. shrug
if its the C++ one on SO
23:29
@Ell Sorry for the delay, as you can see, Lounge business.
YOu said something about respected authors? And someone said that 'I read tutorials'. So, you were quite wrong.
Ell
Ell
@ElimGarak haha it's okay
that question exists pretty much BECAUSE of this Lounge
if we hadn't fought for it staying there, it would have long been deleted
That's the only good thing this chat has done
Don't take it away
I'm not taking it away
user406009
23:30
@Jefery What about Kyrostat?
Because it is, like, a hell of promotion for that books on the list?
People have to move on with this Kyrostat thing
@Jefery The other good thing it has done, is allowed me to meet other smart people in software field
imho
Lounge has taught me some things
It has allowed me to meet other pedantic fucks and have regular arguments with them.
Thank you Lounge. You changed my life... for the worst.
in the 5 years I've been here
@Jefery You chose to have arguments, you can chose not to have arguments
Ell
Ell
23:32
lounge has taught me lots
user406009
I might disagree with some of the people here, but their ideas do have some merit.
jefery so bitter :(
@Jefery <3
I'm kidding. I love you all.
Kind of.
I stopped having arguments like three years ago
after I finally learned it is utterly pointless
23:33
The Lounge has pretty much solved some of my problems over the time by redirecting me to the most interesting blog posts or showing me why I was wrong. Thanks ♥
@Jefery <3
@Morwenn <3
@TonyTheLion <3<3<3
I know I've learned lots by listening to both arguments and conversations here. That isn't even counting the adorable animal pic sharing ring that has prospered here in the last few months. ^_^
user406009
The question is, what is the difference between an argument and a discussion?
user406009
Sometimes it gets quite ambiguous on the Internet.
23:34
wow what a hugbox
@Lalaland indeed
@Ell Nah, decided not to troll. So, back to your issue. So, y is eigenval now. Mv = yv... So we agree that... Mv - Iyv = 0. (M - Iy)v = 0. I is identity of proper dimensions. Agreed so far? :D
@Prismatic <3
where's all the vitriol and anger
lets raid the java room
it left...
Ell
Ell
23:35
@ElimGarak yes :)
user406009
@Prismatic Nah, the Java room is legit.
@Lalaland an argument is where you publicly call the other person stupid, I decided just now in an astonishingly poorly thought out decision.
I WANT ONLY LOVE IN THE LOUNGE <3 <3
8
so C++ guys
// start with a global provided by the library
Pin<A, 1> myPin;
auto myLed = myPin.initDigitalOutput(std::move(myPin));
// use LED
// later want to read from it
auto myDataSource = Pin::reconfigure(std::move(myLed);
@KevinC That wiki has a lot views, yes.
23:35
it's prolly impossible but
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz don't do that - use static class functions
can I restrict access to moved-out variable statically?
Ell
Ell
LedPin<1>::setOn();
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz That's the whole point of Rust.
@BartekBanachewicz I doubt that
user406009
23:36
Like literally.
@Ell read the example again, carefully.
@Lalaland yes, I know
And yes, I've evaluated Rust
and yes it has an embedded framework
Ell
Ell
oh reconfig, I see.
and yes it supports my board
but
@Jefery Ok, so, Jefery, convincing people here is OK. But how can they be convinced if they havent even taken a look? So far it's just you and perhaps a few other people here. As I said, I don't mind getting turned down, I just want a few opinions from a few serious people. Someone here rejected my book becouse of 'int'/'double' thing. I doubt that he is an expert on C++ books, as such trivialities are unimportant. So, we cant ask everyone, I want to ask respected members of this community.
wait, what kind of partial specialization were you wanting?
23:37
it only has digital GPIO w/o any push/pull configs
@BartekBanachewicz That missing ")" is really destroying me inside
@KevinC What about using namespace std;?
I should go to bed
but I'm not tired
Tony's problems
Those are not trivialities
@Jefery Do you want me to find a few other books on that list which also use namespace std?
> You can't do this with compile-time checks at all. The C++ type system is lacking any way to reason about when an object goes out of scope, is moved, or is destroyed — much less turn this into a type constraint.
23:38
@TonyTheLion Read books
@KevinC Go ahead
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz no
user406009
@TonyTheLion I find that turning off the computer suddenly makes you more tired.
Ell
Ell
I'm p sure
moved out of values have a undefined but valid state or sthng
@Jefery It's for beginners, those are short programs. Ok, I'm going through books on that list.
23:39
Yes
@Lalaland a most valid point
@KevinC It doesn't matter. using namespace std; is always bad because it pulls in too many things it shouldn't.
@KevinC ok now I am convinced you're trolling
user1804599
I have a great idea for an automated chicken farm.
@Elyse thats so random
23:40
@BartekBanachewicz you could try going asking the Dreaded Diamond to dance, and having template <typename A, typename B> class Foo : public Bar<A>, public Moo<B> {};
@ScarletAmaranth (he is not)
@Jefery You are having different criteria for my book and for others. YOu seem to intentianally trying to make it harder for me than what would be considered fair.
@KevinC How so?
@Elyse There are already so many automated chicken farms :(
user1804599
Floor made out of hoppers which transfer eggs into dispensers. A button which swaps out the bottleneck hopper for one which transfers meat and feathers into a chest; and which shoots arrows until all chickens are dead; and then shoots eggs to spawn new chickens.
23:40
@TonyTheLion I wish I was that happy
Do you seriously expect everyone that jumps in here asking to be put there just because he mentions C++11 and C++14 to be accepted that easily?
@Borgleader awwww <3 <3 hugs borgleader
@TonyTheLion <3 <3 <3
hugfest!
That wiki is our fucking pride and glory.
23:41
HUG ALL THE LOUNGERS <3 <3
@KevinC Does it take into account the talk « Stop Teaching C »?
If not...
user1804599
> Hoppers cannot be moved by pistons.
user1804599
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
@Jefery You must have the same criteria for all books. And, since mine is for beginners, that using namespace thing should be even less important. You can't make it an argument for excluding my book, as you have obviously included other books not meeting your criteria.
Wow
This is still going.
23:42
Adding a book there is probably as hard as convincing the C++ committee to add stuff to the language
@Elyse :( I'm sorry. I'm so, so sorry.
Holy shit
@Rapptz ikr?
ho lee shit
@jaggedSpire How about snugfest
user1804599
23:42
Guess I can use comparators to create filtering hoppers.
@KevinC Such as?
@Borgleader makes unintelligible noises of delight
@Rapptz this being?
@jaggedSpire that's less important right now
@Borgleader This dumb book discussion
23:43
@Jefery Such as.. you mean you want me to find a book on that list? I havent gotten to it, this discussion is going too fast.
@KevinC I'd argue that it's just as important, if not more important. Beginner programmers are far more impressionable and won't recognize a bad practice until it bites them.
@Rapptz sorry, feel free to kick appropriately :)
@Rapptz Relieve me please.
You are more of an authority than I am here.
@Jeremy That :D
@KevinC I'm waiting.
23:43
@Jeremy I think your last argument is invalid on several points, but it wil take time to type it all.
I'll be here tomorrow too.
@Jefery Are you inviting him for another discussion? sigh
@Jefery Ok, that pace suits me better, this spped here is rediculous.
BTW
does C++ have rankN types?
maybe a stupid question but
case in point: I only learned about the dangers of using namespace std; when a friend did, about six months before finishing college. While my coursework was very light on programming, I'm now employed as a programmer.
23:44
C++ has rank types
@BartekBanachewicz std::rank<N>
@TonyTheLion or plonk, wtv floats your boat
@TonyTheLion I'm actually interested to know if any of those books suggest the using namespace std; thing. Genuinely curious.
I missed putting using namespace std; in production code, by six months
@Morwenn no, not that
23:45
@Borgleader has been done
my goat floats
@Ell I've written it out on paper, but this is going to be hard to condense. You have the matrix. First step would be to acquire the eigenvalues associated with the matrix. The identity * y slaps the y across the diagonal, so you subtract it from your matrix. From there, you can utilize the 0 on the rhs to justify using the determinant on that result, collapsing it into something from which you can get observe the associated eigenvalues. Would you like me to nicely write it out
its my dinner :P
and take a picture of it?
@Morwenn what I want is some T that can hold a value of some U<A>, hiding A
@TonyTheLion tasty
23:45
@TonyTheLion Whatever floats your goat.
@jaggedSpire so you're officially a professional :D
whatever goats your float
@Morwenn lots of things float my goat. :)
@melak47 and isn't that a horrifying thought? :P
@KevinC Just ping me ("@Jefery" and I'll get a notification")
23:46
I'm a professional too
or, in other words
@Jefery too many fs
you got rid of some of them
using T = template<typename A> U<A>;
can I do that in C++ somehow?
@Jefery Ok, so @Jefery
@jaggedSpire Shit, yeah. Thanks.
Ell
Ell
23:47
@ElimGarak I have all of the eigenvalues, I would ever so much appreciate you showing me how from there I can get the unit eigenvectors :3
@Morwenn for all intensive purposes those phrases are one and the same
@BartekBanachewicz template <typename A> using T = U<A>;
@jaggedSpire He's no longer Jeff-fa-fa :(
Ell
Ell
No obligation of course :)
@jaggedSpire that's a different thing. I still need to write T<x>.
23:47
@Borgleader We shall mourn.
@Ell Alright, I'll write it out and take a pic, no point in maxing it out here with Kevin generating so much noise with Joffrey.
@Borgleader the one f is disturbing me though
I find your lack of f's disturbing
@ElimGarak I'm done
I really need to go to sleep
@TonyTheLion f the fs
@BartekBanachewicz you want type erasure, then?
23:48
@melak47 lol
@jaggedSpire whatever that's called in C++ land
I guess?
how do I do that?
black magic :D
@jaggedSpire we shall mourn love
@BartekBanachewicz I don't know if it is what you're looking for, but that's just having a template inherit from a non-templated base class
@jaggedSpire mmmmm
could work
23:49
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, without the use case it's harder to see what you need.
Ell
Ell
@elim okay thanks pal, I really appreciate it
if you don't want to stick that in your template, just make a wrapper instead.
@Elyse Arrows are a limited resource though.
an arrow to the knee
user1804599
23:50
@Jefery Yeah, you have to refill them manually.
same thing with the inheritance tho
@Elyse How do you know all chickens are dead?
user1804599
Luckily, you can get them easily from automatic skeleton farms. :P
How do you detect that?
@BartekBanachewicz I don't understand what your actual problem is
23:50
Probably couldn't sell the chickens whole. Arrow holes in my chicken doesn't sound exactly appetising.
@Puppy I don't think many people do :P
user1804599
@Jefery You don't. You just keep shooting arrows for some fixed amount of time, then assume all are dead.
telkitty would be aghast at this conversation.
user1804599
If a chicken didn't die then that doesn't matter since it'll die with the next slaughtering.
@Elyse You might as well use suffocation
23:51
Eh~, I'm still not used to the new GitHub interface.
@Elyse Why not just use gas?
user1804599
@Jefery Yeah, might be easier. :P Much better!
It's much easier and more reliable
@Elyse what is this new chicken fetish of yours?
user1804599
@Jeremy There is no gas in Minecraft.
user1804599
23:51
@Jefery Yeah, and easy, with pistons.
Lounge <ChickenDeath, BookList>
here @Morwenn @Puppy
@Elyse I don't remember if a chicker is higher than 1 block, but you might also be able to use a lava blade, which gets you cooked chicken meat.
user1804599
@TonyTheLion It's more like a Bataclan than a fetish.
@Elyse oh my
user1804599
23:52
Hey Scatt.
@Jefery just make 'em swim
@BartekBanachewicz Can't it be solved by regular inheritance?
I'm getting "undefined reference to Pin::read"
user1804599
@Jefery Not really interested in the meat.
@jaggedSpire That won't yield cooked meat IIRC
23:53
@Morwenn what's irregular in this inheritance?
user1804599
mostly feathers
user1804599
as they can be used for various things
@BartekBanachewicz All you need is one virtual (and probably an =0) on Pin::read.
user1804599
e.g. arrows and fireworks
@BartekBanachewicz I mean, make your method virtual, use pointers or references and you're done.
23:54
Maybe with that new jumping thing they added you can throw them up and on the top of the arch make them touch the lava.
@Puppy bah, but that means I have to dynamically create and store p
@ScottW :D
@BartekBanachewicz You can write a value_ptr that can abstract that for you. I believe that you should also find a copy readily available in the toolboxes of most Loungers and elsewhere.
@ScottW was it hard?
@Puppy gonna look there
23:55
@BartekBanachewicz yo
@BartekBanachewicz @milleniumbug had one IIRC.
> &speed=100
I see what you did there
@jaggedSpire beh that stores a reference; ideally I'd like a value, but perhaps it makes more sense
@jaggedSpire Oh yah, rvalue references to the rescue :D
"Drone operators refer to children as “fun-size terrorists” and liken killing them to “cutting the grass ..." https://twitter.com/the_intercept/status/667426178651791361
wat
23:56
@sehe D:
@BartekBanachewicz You probably won't cleanly get what you want with value semantics.
@Morwenn You can. It's just not a Standard class, yet. I believe it may have been proposed.
@Puppy Which one?
@набиячлэвэлиь I dunno yet. Not retweeting until I read it.
23:57
value_ptr
I plan on doing some less political tweets shortly though
@Puppy Well yeah, but it still somehow implies pointer semantics.
please help me name a function.

void FunctionName(std::function<void()> callback);

@callback is called after setting the graphics context current. If the context is invalid, the callback isn't invoked and the function returns immediately.
nope, all internal.
@sehe you should tweet about polar bears
23:58
@Morwenn all hidden
how does "call forwarding" to the inner thing work, though
the only pointer semantics value_ptr has is polymorphism, and having to use operator-> to access shit instead of a .
yeah, no overloaded dot
bummer.
Oh yeah, why do we call that value_ptr then? Can't we give it another name.
otherwise a value in every respect.
@Prismatic invokeIfValidContext
user1804599
23:59
@sehe Yay, then I have to do less unfollowing consideration.
@Morwenn polymorphic_value
@Morwenn unique_value :D
it's not unique.
neither is unique_ptr :p
23:59
unique_ptr is unique ownership.
You may have to tell it how it copies itself though.

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