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16:01
soo
i was on a presentation telling what our product is
it turns out we're doing cool things
speaking of which
I should go to bed
Ell
Ell
@GregorMcGregor nighty night
@BartekBanachewicz what are you doing?
@Ell in short, monitoring
we monitor stuff if it works or not.
lol why in short and not pants
joke.rar
and how fast it works
but I didn't realize how complex and complete this analysis is
@Mysticial Github's Markdown has todo-list support
16:09
yeah, it was in their blog a long time ago
also wow
what Feeds posted half an hour ago
that means VS is becoming a legit embedded IDE
Yay, a brand new video featuring one of my favourite professors :)
@BartekBanachewicz They do? And you've clearly been stalking me. :)
@Mysticial hint: in modern world you're supposed to call that "following"
> TLUs are stupid -- rmf, 2015
16:14
@fredoverflow cc @Xeo
why not one-letter usernames
user406009
There isn't enough letters.
Ell
Ell
oh hey
I have a TLU
user406009
Inb4 Unicode
Trolls are getting boring these days... — Borgleader 7 secs ago
/cc @Mysticial
@BartekBanachewicz 52 usernames should be enough for everybody? ;)
What is Bjarne Stroustrup's TLU? B++?
16:18
Hey
A small question: can I overload the dot operator?
not yet
I know I shouldn't - but is it possible?
yet?
Maybe in a future version of C++.
@paul23 There's a recent paper by Bjarne and Gabriel: Operator Dot
Well I was working with matrices and it just popped into my mind :P
A.B vs A*B - dot vs cross product of vectors.
16:20
@paul23 no
user406009
That sounds like a horrible abuse.
fucking hell no.
@paul23 Ehm... I don't think that's a valid use case ;)
@fredoverflow :P nah but it just made me wonder
you can stop wondering :P
16:20
@Borgleader lol
Actually I wonder some more: why do so few languages allow you to "create operators"? Since operators are "just" syntactic sugar coating, why is it never extendable and can any identifier become an operator?
Ell
Ell
> java is basically managed c++
ah my ears
@Ell -.-
> Java is basically managed C with classes.
^ FTFY
16:22
@paul23 It wouldn't work. When it will be overloadable, the dot operator will have to return a reference to a type on which one can use the dot operator.
@fredoverflow this is surprisingly true
@fredoverflow this appeared in Poland when they introduced cameras reading reg tables
user406009
@paul23 Two main reasons: 1. Custom operators makes the grammar more complicated. 2. Some people feel like it adds too much power in the language.
@BartekBanachewicz Someone read too many xkcd
@paul23 Because operators are linked to the notion of priority, which is always linked to surprises. More operators often mean more surprises. It's easier to abuse than to use.
user406009
Custom operators can be easily abused.
user406009
16:24
They are almost always completely unreadable.
user406009
Cue the jokes about "periodic tables of operators"
@Morwenn Hmm I'm more wondering in the field of DSL's, and languages that create DSL's. Like for mathematicians (maple, mathematica)
Fuck DSLs
2
Writing log parsing config takes so much time
@CatPlusPlus Yeah always use a hammer!
16:25
@paul23 Very specific needs. You might as well write your code in a specific language and call it from your main language.
user406009
@paul23 Anyways, there are other programming languages that focus more on DSLs. You might want to look into a Lisp derivative.
user406009
Different languages try to satisfy different needs.
user406009
Use the right tool for the right job.
@Lalaland Wasn't talking about C++ there, just languages in general tend to hate operators. (While coming from a physics/mathematical background my papers often contain many more operators)
user406009
@paul23 That's not quite true. Some programming languages embrace custom operators.
user406009
16:28
Scala, Haskell, Clojure, etc, etc.
@Lalaland Functional languages?!
Actually, neither massive, online, nor role-playing, but it's a Java game!
@CatPlusPlus Praise SDL!
user406009
@paul23 Well, I guess functional programming languages are more willing to try out strange features. But that does bring up a good question of whether any non-functional languages support custom operators.
@Lalaland Actually most languages tend to be "generic" as in "try to satisfy all needs".
DSLs are not just operators and operators are the worst kind of DSL
user406009
16:31
@Jefery That's impossible when those needs are contradictory.
user406009
For instance, garbage collection vs RAII.
They just tune their characteristic up so that they aim at different audiences.
@CatPlusPlus Did I ever state that? I said that for dsls custom operators are quite handy. And I could imagine a language that aims to be a "quick fix to DSLs", that allows you to define functionality/operators based on your neats.
@Lalaland You can have both
In fact Rust did for a while
@Lalaland D has both (IIRC, or maybe it's some other language)
Also refcounting is also GC
VS2015 really has a lot of improvements
They are not contradictory anyway
tbh RAII could be seen as form of GC
user406009
Well, there is a contradiction between good GC (mark and sweep type collectors) and RAII.
16:34
Not really
user406009
It all comes down to the issues of cycles.
@CatPlusPlus Missing the collecting part a bit :P
user406009
A good GC should collect cycles.
@paul23 It happens at the end of scope/at unwind
user406009
But RAII by definition does not work with cycles.
user406009
16:35
So you are always going to have weird edge cases mixing RAII and GC when there are cycles.
RAII can be largely superseded by HOFs really
@CatPlusPlus Well in that sense you can call any "windows" (and I think linux/unix too) program "GC enabled" - the garbage is collected when the program exists.
@BartekBanachewicz HOF = ?
lol "I think"
@paul23 higher-order function
What OS does after process exits is not part of the process
16:36
you were saying that you are coming from maths background? :P
user406009
@CatPlusPlus Yes, but I believe there was documentation stating that the RAII feature doesn't work when you use it with GC.
We're talking about the behaviour inside it
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz it doesn't appear to be a widely used abbreviation vOv
Ell
Ell
I think GC and RAII can coexist, certainly
16:36
I'm popularizing it then :P
@BartekBanachewicz Well actually I study aerospace engineering. With a focus on control systems.
> study
you should be very careful around me with this word
Why?
user406009
@Ell As long as you don't have cycles ...
user406009
Now of course the counterargument is that cycles are stupid.
Ell
Ell
16:38
@Lalaland GCs can cope with cycles can't they?
user406009
And if your program has cycles it was already broken.
user406009
@Ell RAII cannot cope with cycles.
Ell
Ell
I'm confused
Object lifetime and resource lifetime don't have to be tied but really that's not very important right now
Ell
Ell
I didn't claim RAII can cope with cycles
I just meant that in a programme if you so desired you could use RAII for some stuff and GC for other stuff
16:38
It's a bad example of things that cannot be done in one language because it's already being done
heavy oil field
user406009
@Ell Yes you can do that.
user406009
The issues is that RAII is transitive.
user406009
So if something is RAII managed, everything containing it must also be RAII managed.
16:40
Higher Order Fucks. The kind of fucks no one gives.
So just fucks
no, those are the fucks (not) given about not giving a fuck
Ell
Ell
@Lalaland that isn't true
hmm
maybe it is. let me think for more than 10 seconds
@Lalaland It's... transitive? What?
Are you trying to use terms for the sake of using them?
Otherwise it's no longer scope-based
@Jefery What would you use instead of a word that everyone uses for this property
16:42
@Jefery he explained it a line below, ffs
if you have something not-raii managed you have to wrap it or your destructor won't clean it up
pretty straightforward innit
Eh~, I don't feel like eating by my stomach doesn't agree :(
user406009
And you can actually do RAII managed stuff in Java in a sorta OK manner with AutoCloseable and try with resources.
The rule of zero rests upon its transitivity.
user406009
You just have to manually write the "destructors" which is a pain.
"try with resources" sounds like a shitty version of the HOF solution
16:43
That is not transitivity btw
user406009
(Well, they are called "close", but it's the same)
It's equivalent to execute-around
Ell
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes this sounds like a quote from a sci-fi
@Jefery Do tell
@Morwenn Eat, you need strength D:
16:44
@Borgleader Strength? What for? xD
@CatPlusPlus Figure it out
Everyone already did
Ell
Ell
oh fuck
I started ed while merging config files by accident
oh yea Ell uses Gentoo
16:46
What's ed again?
It's the standard editor
Ed is probably asleep
Eduard
user406009
@Jefery Here is a (hopefully more clear) explanation. Transitivity is the property that if Something(a,b) and Something(b,c), then Something(a,c). RAII is transitive because if [A manages the resources of B] and [B manages the resources of C], then [A manages the resources of C].
Two supermarkets with similar fronts but the entry and exit doors are swapped.
Guess who hit the glass doors.
Fuck me.
16:48
Eduardingo
Ell
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes ah robot
1. Don't cut yourself
2. Don't stab yourself
3. Don't breathe glue
4. Don't walk into traffic signs
5. Don't walk into glass doors
9
Ell
Ell
dispatch-conf is bad
I want to use git for it instead
Duarte
Ell
Ell
I think I can do that if I set it up tbf
16:48
Use a config management system
"You're a #gentoo user. By definition, you don't have a clue what you're doing." http://mywiki.wooledge.org/XyProblem
Eduardinho
the world is small
Just putting entire /etc under Git will probably be annoying
@BartekBanachewicz Why?
16:50
@CatPlusPlus I have it under Bazaar via etckeeper. It is integrated into the Ubuntu/APT and it commits automatically. It works also with Git and Mercurial, IIRC.
Use it.
Gentoo is yet another OS which is slightly different than the other ones but not really.
@Jefery there's a link in the tweet
@BartekBanachewicz what about people who just Gentoo, because they can regardless of their ability to use GNU Linux? :/
@BartekBanachewicz Oh
/etc is only one part of the equation anyway, if I bother with storing config in VCS then I want entire system to be rebuildable automatically
user406009
16:51
If your only goal is to get shit done, Gentoo might not be the best choice. If you have other goals, then of course it differs.
Ell
Ell
ah you can tell dispatch-conf to use an external merge tool, that's all I need really
@CatPlusPlus Well, just do full disk backup?
> <chron> no gentoo means i know what i'm doing
Waste of space
@Jefery Gentoo is hard to make work
soo many options
16:52
Keeping backups locally is dumb, keeping just one backup is dumb
literally everything is configurable, even your mum :P
Ell
Ell
@TonyTheLion it gets much easier with experiences
@CatPlusPlus atm I keep local snapshots
Sounds like an OS zoidberg would use
Ell
Ell
I won't claim them to be backups for data loss
@Ell yes, and you're the master at recompiling kernels
Ell
Ell
16:53
only incompetence on my behalf
Uploading 2TB of backup every day to S3 is expensive
@Jefery he uses it at work IIRC
called it
Ell
Ell
I've actually not compiled my kernel very recently :P
it's due an update ;)
@CatPlusPlus Hence you have various schemas of incremental backups etc.
user406009
16:54
I mean, life in general is a waste of time and energy.
Ell
Ell
not before I sort out my driver choice though/finally fix framebuffer issues
No really
user406009
The shitty fanfiction I read is no better a use of time than using Gentoo.
its cold in my flat
16:54
What do you need framebuffer for
Today I was thinking that the relational model is the only little snowflake I mentally go to when I'm disappointed by computer science.
@Lalaland oh fanfiction
@Jefery which relational model?
@Lalaland Waste of energy? Maybe. Waste of time? How is time any more wasted if you live or if you don't? :)
The relational model?
user406009
@CatPlusPlus Don't they have a service specifically for this? Called glacier or something?
Ell
Ell
16:55
@CatPlusPlus for logging in
I don't want to use a display manager
The relational model (RM) for database management is an approach to managing data using a structure and language consistent with first-order predicate logic, first described in 1969 by Edgar F. Codd. In the relational model of a database, all data is represented in terms of tuples, grouped into relations. A database organized in terms of the relational model is a relational database. The purpose of the relational model is to provide a declarative method for specifying data and queries: users directly state what information the database contains and what information they want from it, and let the...
Ell
Ell
I'm using one atm out of necessity
@Lalaland (I know it is supposed to be a joke. I just cannot help myself but point out this.)
pff trying to import catia products into blender is impossible
Glacier is infrequent access storage but full disk backups would still be expensive
16:55
It's so elegant, horizontally scalable and generally beautiful
@Jefery oh relational databases
lol horizontally scalable
AND DON'T TELL ME IT ISN'T I CAN'T LOSE IT I DON'T WANT TO BE DEPRESSED
Now who's using terms they shouldn't
@Jefery awww <3 <3
Ell
Ell
16:57
@CatPlusPlus have you seen tarsnap.com ?
Ell
Ell
Have you used it before?
No
It doesn't support Windows so I don't really care about it
@Morwenn Delivering pizzas, those things are heavy!
Ell
Ell
Oh kk
16:59
Hahahaha won with one pawn and one second on the clock left
Ell
Ell
Lol nice
drwxr-xr-x 1 root root 272 Nov 14 02:02 I_think_its_fixed/
drwxr-xr-x 1 root root 272 Nov 18 15:27 I_think_its_fixed_2/
The guy went "rematch" after a millisecond
Ell
Ell
I'm good at snapshots :V

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