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@chmod711telkitty I wonder how you know
umm... now what's going on?
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, yesterday, by ThePhD
@balpha As one last, er, tidbit. While I was trying to troubleshoot why I couldn't join chat, I made a SECOND account (that had much the same problems). To get those merged, I just have to send in one of those ticket things to get their content merged together, yes?
Oh who flagged that?
if you want, read the conversation around it, seems PhD was banned for having a sock puppet account
00:03
Thats a game screenshot for crying out loud
What did I just miss?
@Mysticial this got flagged
Whatever it was, I missed it too
@Borgleader lolwut
I invalidated it ofc
cant wait to find out which lurker is diong this
00:05
wasn't a lurker - but can't say more
anyway... bed time for me... laters
@JonClements nn
Mods know who flags?
@JonClements noooooooooo who's gonna take care of us now?
Man, I wanna be a mod.
@Nooble Yes, but only when it's active.
00:05
@Mysticial Boltclock \o/
Ell
Ell
I have a horrible fear of slipping on marble steps and landing teeth first
I like my English stairs because they are carpetted so this Can't happen
I have searched around, no mods/SE staff, now it's the best time to launch an attack!
Lol.
I don't know how to set up platform specific #defines. This is stupid
00:10
@Prismatic #ifdef _WIN32
=/
Ell
Ell
It's a job flr the build system
CMake!
Ell
Ell
Gcc -DPRIS_WIN
(Make)
Ell
Ell
or you can use "standard" ones, if you can call them that
00:11
The problem is if you have a library, those defines arent 'baked' into the resulting lib
Ell
Ell
I'd prefer the build system though
so when you link against it with some other project all the defines are lost
"Bake" them into the header files.
Ell
Ell
Why is yhat an issue??
You can't link a windows lib with linux exe for example
I used to work in this skyscraper, they have beautiful polished marble floor in their reception area. Slippery as hell. I slipped multiple times. The true case of dumb people who put beauty before functionality. People who break bones should suit those nitwits.
00:12
@Prismatic Time to get your C++ developer badge revoked.
@Ell Because you no longer have the defines from the build system that you used for the library on anything else.
@Rapptz You're the real one right?
Just making sure.
Real what
did you guys miss me that much everyone imitated me?
someone here tried to shamelessly steal your identity
I won't name names, but it was nooble
@Rapptz Yes.
Ell
Ell
00:14
@prosthetic I Stoll twill to see why you need the defined p
@Ell stoll twill, u drunk mate?
#mobile
he could be drunk on the go
Ell
Ell
Man Fuck this phone :L
00:15
@Ell not sure you fit in the usb port
Ell
Ell
@nooble got it
I typed it out and pressed send before the message appeared
@Borgleader oh I'm definitely sure I don't
Did you mean "struggle"?
Ell
Ell
@prismatic I still fail to see why you need the defines
5 hours ago, by Mysticial
WTF. I thought you were Rapptz for sec.
I don't know man that's pretty insulting of you to mix Alex M and I just because of avatar.
Shame on you nerds.
00:18
But...
... But the colors. ;~;
AND THE SHAPE.
and anime nerds
They were p. close at that small range.
Get better monitor.
or just zoom and enhance!
Enhancify!
Ell
Ell
00:19
@pris what defines do you have?
stuff like
#ifdef __ANDROID__
 #define SINGLE_WINDOW_ONLY 1
 #define LOAD_GL_FNPTRS 0
#endif
@Prismatic Defines are essentially compile-time entitities. Baking them into a lib is to say that a library (at link time) can pollute code that links against it (VIA implementation-defined mechanics in its headers). That's... bonkers.
Ell
Ell
> Your alarm is set for 2 hours and 40 minutes
Worst feeling :/
@ThePhD For me the problem is the opposite of what you're describing
Before I had qmake detect the target (ie android or whatever) and send define flags to the compiler directly when building. This way the define is visible for everything thats being compiled
The problem is that after I have my shiny library, all the defines are gone forever. The source code is fine, because only the relevant sections that evaluated defines were included... but the headers aren't
Put them in a header file, let the user turn on the flags they like while also shipping a default config header file.
The only way to share defines is to put them in a header.
00:23
The problem I have with that is including that 'config' header file so that everything is visible in the right order. Its clusterfuckery
Ell
Ell
@pris I am confused still as to what your problem is. When your user #includes your lib again, the header defines will be detected again
I know config.h is a common pattern, its just a bitch to get right
vOv
Macros in libs would be a nightmare.
I cannot begin to imagine the clusterfucking cascade the preprocessor would have to deal with.
Ell
Ell
Or linker, depending on exactly what you mean
@Borgleader You spent a lot of time on that level eh?
00:25
@Ell How? Say my build system does something like if(ios) { defines += ios_thing }. Unless I transfer that into a macro in a header, I'd never be able to get that define 'back' since its all part of the build system
@ThePhD add section in executable file with defines used to compile it :]
then the linker MAGICALLY (optionally?) uses those defines when linking against said link
...why do I C Botany?
@Prismatic And then the library #define SCL_SECURE_NO_WARNINGS, while you want that define not to exist.
@Prismatic It's C++
@ThePhD The magic of undef!
@Prismatic Where do you undef it?
00:27
brought to you by the letter -U
@Prismatic Not really
@CatPlusPlus autotools uses config.h
or do you mean the 'bitch to get right' part
00:28
I just like having my defines globally visible. Its easier for me to think about
> #include <Furrovine++/Platform.OS.hpp>
ugh
Ell
Ell
@pris once you compile.it with that set of defines, they are forever compiled into th e library
Also why do you even need config defines for a compiled library
00:30
why dont you throw spaces in your file names while you're at it
Fix your definitions
I have spaces in my file names.
Any tool that can't handle spaces is a piece of garbage.
@Ell No they aren't! That's the point!
And rightfully deserves to explode.
00:30
how do you include that? #include <some\x20file.hpp>? :p
@CatPlusPlus to do different stuff based on platform?
What do you need that for in public headers
Your interface sucks
ya :[
Also again generating a config file and then installing it together with headers is trivial so I really don't know what the problem is
00:32
@melak47 Like this.
Defines are always "globally visible"
@ThePhD I don't see spaces
Hell, config header makes them more visible than command line flags set by the build system
Ooh, you meant spaces.
With magic.
FURROVINECOORDINATESYSTEMLEFTHANDED
You know you can use _ in identifiers right
00:33
> FURROVUNE
Shit, misspellings.
@CatPlusPlus I'm working on snake_caseing my entire codebase right now. But there's a lot of types and function names and enums. ;~;
user406009
> FURRYVINE THE ONE AND ONLY APPLICATION FOR SHARING YOUR FURRY VINES
@ThePhD You posted your code in the lounge, prepare for trouble (and make it double)
I did all of the graphics stuff though.
clearly these should all be template arguments of matrix, not macros :D
@CatPlusPlus Aren't there cases when those details can't be hidden? Like what about templates
00:34
Haha C++ interfaces
@melak47 Would hurt the interface too much, albeit I am considering making a general Order parameter to things like Matrix.
So I can have Matrix<3, 3, DefaultOrdering>, were ordering provides a specific kind of access to the underlying data.
make it an std::index_list or sequence or what it's called, that way you can order the elements any way, not just row/column major! :D
user406009
@ThePhD You might want to make your github homework repositories private. In my experience, professors might get pissed when the solutions to their homework assignments are publicly available.
@Lalaland Each and every one of my professors can eat a dick.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I havent finished the game
user406009
00:37
Well, that's one way of going through life.
@Lalaland They always are
Also, Github charges for private repos.
If they want my stuff private they can pay my Github bills! \o/
user406009
@ThePhD Students get 5 free ones.
You can have it for free if you have an active edu email
user406009
And bitbucket has infinite free.
00:38
It still doesn't really matter
user406009
@ThePhD Also, it sounds like you might find education.github.com/pack useful.
user406009
@CatPlusPlus Some kids at my school got called out about it. In class.
lol schools
user406009
Gotta get my sheet of paper.
@Borgleader ...yet? Or did you just ragequit? :3
00:40
@Lalaland about what
user406009
@sehe Posting public github repos of homework assignments.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ yet, i was playing a few days ago
@Lalaland ah. that makes a lot of sense
@ThePhD What do you mean by ordering?
If you want your matrix operations to be any efficient on modern hardware there is only 1 possible layout
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva I guess row major or column major
user406009
00:47
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva presumably layout (column,row major) and perhaps stride, offset etc
@ThePhD You mean like row vs column layout?
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva How so?
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Different ways of accessing the data. The typical examples are row major v. column major, but sometimes you want different strides and offsets (and for them to be computed before-hand, at compile-time).
I was going to generalize this in my array_view class but writing that shit is the hards.
If you are going to access elements in order by column, it's probably more efficient (considering cache locality and all) to store it in column major order.
00:48
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Say you multiply a 4-vector by a 4x4-matrix. In one of the layouts, that's 4 dot products, = 4x16 byte fetches. Very efficient. In the other layout, you'll get strided accesses, no matter what you do. One could argue that you get better cache usage on that one but I'm not sure it's worth it.
user406009
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva You could make the opposite argument by multiplying in the opposite direction.
What?
@Lalaland this
user406009
vA instead of Av.
In matrix mult those yield different results.
No, really
00:50
So... not really an option?
@Lalaland Your matrix needs to be transposed, then.
@ThePhD Yes, it's not very relevant here though
user406009
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Yes. But either orientation is equal.
Wow way to bring heteronormativity in the argument good job
Really it depends on how you use the matrix.
It's not a "there is only 1 possible layout" deal
00:52
THEN HOW COME OGL AND DX USE THE SAME???
user406009
They actually use opposite layouts.
Are you appealing to authority?
@Lalaland No they don't
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Akshully...
They use different notations, the underlying storage is exactly the same
00:53
I am butt wizard
DX does row-major CPU side, but GPU side its all column-major. Unless you tag it not to be.
Because GPU side they want that perfectly coalesced 4x16 fetch because it's more efficient.
So why don't they just reverse the multiply instead of transposing?
They'd need to change the unit tests
Your mom is so fat she's row-major and column-major at the same time
00:55
That's true for any 1x1 matrix
That one is terrible, sorry. 2/10
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Legacy, I'm sure. DX chose Left-Handed, Row-Major and did that for aeons.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ That's less than a month from now
@ThePhD lies
@ThePhD That doesn't matter
> Star Wars Battlefront will not offer a server browser, but will utilize a new skill based matchmaking system
00:56
What gets generated on GPU is invisible to the user anyway
@sehe What kind of fucked up date system are you referencing?
Nobody shoots themselves in feet so well as EA
Because only YYYY-MM-DD or MM-DD exists.
user406009
Except maybe EA's customers. Who stupidly preorder games.
@CatPlusPlus im sure tons of people wont buy the game because of this
00:57
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ HAHAHAAHA. Didn't know you were merkin. Sorry bro
@Prismatic I'm sure that's not true because gamers are idiots who can't think for themselves
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ anything except YYYY-MM-DD should be a crime
> A merkin is a pubic wig.
Sounds about right
@CatPlusPlus was being sarcastico
I'll be your pubic wig.
00:58
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Did no one ever tell you?
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva They do...?
user406009
Anyways the orientation does not matter to the math.
user406009
The only benefit is existing code/legacy.
If I have a projection matrix with the data stored in the row major spots and byte-dump it to the GPU without first transposing, everything goes to shit.
Aug 12 '11 at 12:07, by sbi
@FredOverflow If I was Merkin, I'd flag that for obscenity!
00:59
@ThePhD Then just multiply in reverse order?
@ThePhD I thought you had Furrovine developed in some secret bunker that nobody could access.
Didn't you have the repo private somewhere?
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ The header-only bits are available because I use them in other projects.
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Right, but that's a breaking change in the end... you can't swap row/column major and have things "just keep working" like before.
Why not? You said they were equivalent.
I'm generous and sharing! I share code with myself
user406009
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva You have to swap everything else as well.
user406009
01:01
It's a big pain.
panties
@Lalaland You don't generate that code GPU side.
user406009
Yes, but I'm saying you could swap everything to row-major and transposed and you would be just as efficient and effective as column-major.
user406009
In a parallel universe, OpenGL might be completely row-major.
user406009
There would be no practical difference.
01:04
@Lalaland But then you avoid the transpose
user406009
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva The transpose is done when you write the code, not at runtime.
Between CPU and GPU there is a transpose
Because DX is inconsistent
user406009
Yes, but you could swap all the math on the GPU. And it would be equivalent.
I am not disagreeing with that
user406009
So everyone here is in agreement then. The orientation does not matter unless you have legacy code/etc.
01:08
what? how is DX inconsistent. it's your shaders
@Lalaland It matters depending on how you access the elements
user406009
How you access the elements doesn't matter. You can always change your algorithm, and it would be equivalent.
Not as efficient no.
What I am saying is, if you want to avoid wasting precious drips of purrformance, you should stick to the layout that is hardware friendly in your maths system.
you can do whatever you want in your shaders...
01:11
The algorithm complexity might not change, but that's not nearly all that matters.
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva wysiwygs
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Did I? I... didn't think I did. I'm sorry.
Shaders are, by default in OpenGL and Direct3D, column-major. OpenGL's matrices EXPECT everything to be column-major, but even the glUniform* calls for Matrices take a transpose argument for the very reason that your CPU-side matrices might not play nice with the GPU's setup.
Remember that in both HLSL and GLSL there are attributes for making one or all of your matrices row-major anyways.
01:23
But why would you pay for a transpose when you can just use the same storage format as the GPU
Right, there's no reason to, unless you want the convenience of Scale * Rotation * Translation to fit in with your mental model of "do A, then B, then C", rather than having to write out Translation * Rotation * Scale, and have it do it "backwards" from the reading order.
Convenience vs purformens
Matrix transpose is 2 64B cachelines bbys
Also, in row-major you can directly dump bytes for a translation vector right into the 4x4 matrices's 4th row.
Or 3x3, or w/e you're using.
Um?
Whattttttttt
You're confusing me now
The memory is allocated in one straight line. In the case of row major, the floats for translation are right next to each other.
In column major, they're placed 4 elements apart each.
01:28
So OpenGL and DX are row major then, because that is what they do.
N... No...?
Yes
2
A: Does using column-major matrices in OpenGL cause striding on the GPU?

Anastasiya AsadullayevaOpenGL uses column-major notation, but that is merely a notation. The underlying storage format is as you would expect. The following matrix in column-major notation: xx yx zx wx xy yy zy wy xz yz zz wz 0 0 0 1 is stored in memory like this: xx xy xz 0 yx yy yz 0 zx zy zz 0 wx wy wz 1 W...

:3
maximum confusion
Oh, nevermind. I had swapped the two, then.
Row major is the one with the strided access.
ONE OF THEM IS THE BADS.
Nope, because then you just swap the mult order
You know what... let's just leave it at I'm bad at this and that I'll never understand.
01:30
Me too actually
And I've been doing this for years
I still get confused everytime
I hate matrices (inb4 @Rapptz says its all really trivial)
Well, that's because Rapptz is godlike at math.
Matrices by themselves are not very hard
That's because he's Chinese
Lapptz
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Since when
01:32
I don't know, @Rapptz since when are you Chinese?
UUUGH I have to recompile my entire engine. Ever since @Cat pointed out that I don't put underscores in my macros I've got the itch and now I have to fix everything. ;~;
Easy enough. grep for CAPS then -v for _
peace of kek
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva It's MACROSDONELIKETHIS
And what did I just say?
01:34
What does -v do, again?
Also, why doesn't #elifdef exist
What bastard didn't think that'd be a goddamn great idea.
#ifdef X

#elif defined Y

#endif // This is bullshit
#inclundelifef
@ThePhD #elif defined(X) isnt that long to write :P
@Borgleader Look how incongruent and shitty it looks, though.
#elfidef should just be made standard.
I'm going to make sure that's an integral part of my compiler.
01:36
#if defined (X)
#elif defined(Y)
#endif
there, i fixed it
Even worse. ;~;
I hate this OpenGL function loading shit so much
get glload
generate your headers
@Prismatic glloadgen noob
live happy
01:37
@Borgleader I use glad, but thats not the point
glloadgen
Why's it bad?
not glload
I have an 'opengl' module in my project that wraps opengl for use in the rest of my library
But because of the stupid opengl loading shit, it cant just be its own module
Why can't it be its own module...?
01:39
It has to depend on the module that provides the platform abstraction because thats what loads the functions
....
Huh.
Some platforms dont require function loading at all, other abstractions handle it implicitly
That's just a #ifdef in your CPP file, no?
So if I relied on Qt, I wouldnt have to worry about function loading at all. If I relied on SDL, I have to explicitly use a loader
@Prismatic So what's the problem
Also you can just use GL Load and not worry about it ever
guids?
uuids
squuids?
sequentially quantumorphic universally unique identifiers
@Prismatic glloadgen can be set to let you call the load function, so you could ifdef the call if need be. at least i think so. I always use the auto load version cuz simplicity
@Borgleader Yes, there's noload_cpp and the regular cpp version.
I think it's called pointer_cpp?
I wanted to say something but forgot
01:43
bitbucket.org/alfonse/glloadgen/wiki/Home, theres 5 styles total. Confusingly noload_cpp automatically loads the things
i always use noload_cpp
Same \o/
You pay the lookup cost the first time you use that function.
Is there already a boost container that stores map keys and values separately rather than as pairs?
I don't think so.
a flat map or wtv its called?
flat_map still stores them together, no?
01:50
Flat map uses a vector container rather than nodes, but it's still pairs, yes
ah
i think google has what youre talking about but idk about boost
(istr chandler mentioning it in his talk)
> The flat_map class supports random-access iterators.
Whoa.
I'll check that, thanks
How do you... random-access things in a map...????
Black magic. Black magic I say.
1 min ago, by Anastasiya Asadullayeva
Flat map uses a vector container rather than nodes, but it's still pairs, yes
01:52
He was saying something about cache efficiency and iterating over the keys only and then indexing to get the value
IIRC
Yes that's the idea
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Yeah, but what happens if you random-access yourself into a non-existent key-value pair?
E.g., WTF does fmap.begin() + 2 mean?
Same thing as with a regular map
Regular maps only support bidi iters?
That'd be the 3rd element in the map
01:54
... But what is the "3rd" element?
Oh, wait. It's implemented as an ordered vector.
We're not talking about an unordered_flatmap.
Herp.
@Borgleader Can't find it :w
I am changing my avatar ... everyone else is having a predator as their avatar & I have chickens ... not one but two chickens as my avatar.
I'll just implement this as a memory chunk where keys are stored in order at the beginning and values in reverse order at the end
genius
original idea donut steal

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