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11:00
or have more forms that compile down tot he same
@BartekBanachewicz You don't have AST until you parse
ill search the chat room history...
never mind, lunch time
@CatPlusPlus I want to store the AST.
and yes that means that say .c++ and .hs files are totally incompatible
you can't use a text editor to view them anymore
Fixed-size binary formats are slightly easier to parse, yes, but they're also non-self-evident and require special tools for humans
But you wouldn't have a fixed binary format anyway
11:01
@BartekBanachewicz You will need a parser to compile the code into your representation.
Once you have a parser, I don't see the point of not using a parser. It's pure OCD.
you need a much simpler parser in viewers
@BartekBanachewicz Which you have to translate back and forth from whatever the output representation is
11:01
Which is more tooling
Not less
@BartekBanachewicz Which is rather pointless because who wants to write two parsers?
@BartekBanachewicz You require one, text can be viewed by any tool without special parsing
Computers are more tooling than using a regular sheet of paper.
@CatPlusPlus but doesn't provide the features
Plus when you come up with a binary format that stores arbitrary code, you end up with UTF-8
11:02
if you want those features ATM, you need a text parses which is much harder
What features
well, things that operate on AST
@BartekBanachewicz Which already exists.
@R.MartinhoFernandes and is a pain to use
You still need domain-specific knowledge
11:03
@BartekBanachewicz Er. You feed it code on one side, you get ASTs on the other.
for every language ever
meh, it's going nowhere.
You won't get AST for every language ever
I am sure I'm right and you're sure you're right so there.
I'll write a PoC someday and then we'll talk.
The only thing your format changes is being inconvenient for people to use
And then I'll steal your PoC code and make a PoC that shows your idea is a waste of time.
@CatPlusPlus Exactly.
11:05
Because now your language (yes, one language, you can't do it in generic way without reinventing text) requires special editor to just be viewed and edited
@BartekBanachewicz Like what?
@BartekBanachewicz Which have nothing to do with storage.
AST diff for a generic binary format that stores arbitrary code is text diff
hth
You need domain-specific knowledge for AST diffs
11:06
It can only ever work for a single language
inb4 Semantic Merge
again
Besides raw AST diff is useless
@sehe Sssssh, let Bartek write a PoC.
Even less useful than a text diff
Oh he knows. I think he's been avoiding the reference maybe
11:07
Because there will be a lot more changes to go through every time
Semantic diffs are more useful, yes, but again, they require even more specific knowledge
@R.MartinhoFernandes I saw that thing already.
And in that knowledge the input format is drowned out and becomes irrelevant
@CatPlusPlus And don't require any particular storage form.
yeah they don't.
No, really, try working with Smalltalk
11:08
tell that to every tabs vs spaces debate
That's nerds being stupid who cares
Seriously, Smalltalk
"but guys you don't need a particular storage form"
Is that what you have to offer?
11:08
Go
That's your PoC
smalltalk is a Proof of Failure really
I rest my case
@BartekBanachewicz ITT "semantics" is ~"syntax modulo tabs/spaces"
found it :)
Jan 2 at 5:22, by Don Larynx
Take a look at this @edition. http://www.amazon.com/How-Prove-Structured-Approach-2nd/dp/0521675995/ref=sr_1_1‌​?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1420176117&sr=1-1&keywords=how+to+prove+it
11:10
> div 10, 2
wtf elixir
why the comma
Because rubby has optional parens
iex(10)> div 10
** (RuntimeError) undefined function: div/1
wait what
It's the same as div(10, 2)
iex(10)> &div 10, &1
#Function<6.90072148/1 in :erl_eval.expr/5>
well, slightly annoying. cc @thecoshman
Hell for your PoC you don't even have to write any code, just try to define that binary format so it works with any language
11:13
I don't think it's feasible to do it in an universal way
languages differ too much
Yes, that's the point
still not convinced
So what do you gain by changing every if into \xDD or whatever
It's a binary format where you map values to chars in the target language ie "A" is 65, "4" is 52, etc
well no formatting issues ever for one
11:14
Going through text is not the hard part of parsing, the grammar is
Formatting issues are trivial to deal with and like literally not important at all
Solving social issues with technology is what jeff does
Don't do that
iex> [1, 2, true, 3]
[1, 2, true, 3]
uh
why would I ever want that
lol "don't be like jeff"
why do languages assume I want a list of numbers or maybe booleans
Erlang is not statically typed
It doesn't care
it could throw a runtime error for that
11:18
Hell, you can make lists that aren't even lists by putting something that's not a list into the tail
the lack of static type verification doesn't mean you have to allow completely bogus values like the list above
It's not bogus value
Stupid logger dumped all network traffic to a file
Just found a folder with 20+Go of files containings "aaaaaa"s
having a phone interview on thursday
for that contract job
11:22
Which kind?
Cool!
Well, good luck
but I'd need to move out for a few months
Google Drive has a way of surprising me
oh, where is it?
11:23
Warsaw
@Mr.kbok This explains the slowness
@CatPlusPlus statistically typed
@sehe no that's R
@sehe I have a SSD so the network is probably still slower than the disk
with probability [0..1)
** (ArgumentError) argument error
good job Elixir
this is very helpful (very helpful)
7
11:25
@BartekBanachewicz actually, there's no redundancy. There's only lack of detail
I know I know.
Allow me to mock the language I've no idea about will you
like for having "sometimes" used in language behaviour description
@BartekBanachewicz Sounds like songs lyrics
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz Erlang is well-known for incomprehensible error messages.
I want them back (I want them back)
The minds we had (the minds we had)
See? You just miss the music.
user1804599
Error messages are obscure and lacking in detail, and stack traces are typically textual representations of Erlang data structures with no logical formatting whatsoever.
user1804599
11:29
Also, when debugging, :application.start(:sasl) can be really helpful.
> Elixir also provides ==, !=, ===, !==, <=, >=, < and > as comparison operators:
sigh
user1804599
?
user1804599
It's very reasonable.
Bartek's complexity traumas trigger when he sees special names for things that could have been functions. Composition, reuse, genericity etc.
user1804599
They are functions.
@sehe this one was more for ===
this makes sense in any language that has reference semantics in the core, methinks
user1804599
There is also =~.
user1804599
Elixir has no reference semantics.
user1804599
All data structures are immutable.
11:40
> left === right
Returns true if the two items are match
Ok. Not confidence inspiring
user1804599
The only difference is when comparing floats and integers.
> Keep in mind errors in guards do not leak but simply make the guard fail
which means you can write bullshit as a guard expression and silently introduce a bug
user1804599
That's why you have unit tests.
writing bullshit rarely causes useful software
that's why've created compilers that catch it and slap us
user1804599
11:45
There is only a limited set of functions that can be used in guard expressions.
user1804599
And if your guard expressions are very complex you're doing it wrong anyway.
user1804599
iex(1)> %{NaN => 1}[NaN]
1
user1804599
why ;_; why
user1804599
iex(2)> NaN == NaN
true
user1804599
That's why!
user1804599
11:51
NaN is really moronic. I don't understand why high-level languages still have it.
user1804599
There are far better bug reporting techniques, such as exceptions.
Don't divide zero by zero or square root a negative number, and NaN will never happen
user1804599
Especially in a language like Erlang where the whole idea is to crash ASAP.
user1804599
@milleniumbug subtract infinity from infinity.
It's not like you can divide an int by zero without UB
user1804599
11:53
iex(1)> Inf - Inf
** (ArithmeticError) bad argument in arithmetic expression
    :erlang.-(Inf, Inf)
user1804599
Nice.
@rightfold infinity :P
Don't use infinities too. Infinity doesn't belong to R
@thecoshman it's indeterminate
@BartekBanachewicz nah, I just determined it there
11:55
@milleniumbug it belongs to IEEE754 :P
@rightfold Because it's implemented in hardware
user1804599
hardware is very high-level
@BartekBanachewicz mmm. reality check
huh... so I had been keeping some boxes by my desk... cleaner apparently decided I don't want them any more...
another job news: we totally want to give you an interview but not now
@rightfold hardware-level savages
@fredoverflow fuck for loops
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huh... so my work is dosing SO
for loops are basically an invitation for reinventing the wheel
12:02
> Bartek B.: for loops considered harmful
I've been saying that for years already
> Bartek B.: I don't care for loops
> Bartek B.: For loop the bell tolls
@fredoverflow good.
> Most people don't even know what sysadmins do, but trust me, if they all took a lunch break at the same time they wouldn't make it to the deli before you ran out of bullets protecting your canned goods from roving bands of mutants.
sounds like our factorio setup alright @thecoshman @Ell @Jefffrey @milleniumbug
user1804599
@fredoverflow moron
user1804599
12:04
For loops and mutable variables can significantly improve readability of nontrivial folds.
@fredoverflow tis a good little post about appropriate use of lambdas
lol BBC shows such professionalism - in Russian version of Yanukovych's interview he says that 90% of population of Crimea voted for joining Russia, but in English version that part was cut.
@fredoverflow I'm invoking kbok's Rule Of Sanity
> blog.agiledeveloper.com
err nope.
> agile
buzzwords
12:06
yep
you can't spell badgile without agile
2
lol
user1804599
@TonyTheLion fragile
I like how for every internet provider there's an offer that expires today
actually not opposed to the core ideas of agile, it's mostly sensible talk, but I'd like to see it in practice and not descend into wankery
12:07
@thecoshman Oh, it's by Venkat, I didn't realize until now.
@BartekBanachewicz rotfl
@BartekBanachewicz we've done a very good job :D
hi ... I'm a newbie to MingW .. I have installed mingw successfully but however when i run the mingw client (located in msys/msys batch file) and then i have to navigate to the bin folder in mingw to use gcc ..
Is there any way i can run the gcc without having to reside in the folder which contains the exe of gcc.. Any help is appreciated
@thecoshman You sound like a Monad tutorial critic ;)
@psychoCoder SET PATH=%PATH%;path_to_your_gcc_bin
@psychoCoder go read about setting PATH
12:09
@fredoverflow stop teasing
Get better at computers
You can set it permanently in Windows via Settings/Environment Variables or something.
so ok this elixir thing sounds pretty interesting
but the lack of type discipline is a turnoff
@TonyTheLion Is that Norway?
12:12
Yep
And what band is it?
@fredoverflow I don't like the answer the guy below responded with. Half of the points he mentioned aren't even true, a quater is irrelevant, and the remaining quarter is subjective.
@milleniumbug Well, you can always downvote on stack overflow, can't you?
Oh, he already has 10 downvotes. That's unusual.
@fredoverflow Yup, I'll do that. On the guy who posted the Reddit comment
SO answer was already downvoted by me.
> You wouldn't downvote a car.
5
12:16
lol
Kinda random, but I'm glad people like it.
> Besides violating the Keep It Simple, Stupid principle
Remember don't violate the Stupid principle ok
@TonyTheLion I don't get how thye look so self-absorbed in those surroundings
If you just want a backdrop, use a green screen (inb4 that's exactly what they used)
@Abyx I'm not exactly sure how it matters?
@sehe Perhaps they're so self absorbed because they're playing music?
@sehe professionalism? no it doesn't, for sure
12:21
KISS should really be KIS. Never understood the purpose of that final S. They should have kept the acronym simple. 💋
@TonyTheLion I don't get that. If your music is so dominant, why be in an (awe-)inspiring location
@sehe cause music videos
green screen, all the way
maybe it is a green screen, hard to tell from picture
but even so, the backdrop is nice, wouldn't mind actually going to a place like that and just sitting there enjoying the beauty for a while
Hi I've tried a couple of things but none of them worked.. My gcc is in (C:/MinGW/bin/) and i have no environment variable 'path' in the user variable section. Can you please tell me how to proceed now . What will the value and how to enter a new path variable and its name?'
12:24
> Might execute in parallel, which is a horrible, horrible thing for all but the 0.1% of your code that needs to be optimized. Any parallel code has to be thought through (even if it doesn't use locks, volatiles, and other particularly nasty aspects of traditional multi-threaded execution). Any bug will be tough to find.
And this ^ is why we can't have nice things.
@TonyTheLion Yup. I wouldn't mind looking at that backdrop without ugly studio equipment and self-absorbed band members, indeed!
> Minimalist GNU for Windows
It's funny for some reason
Do you guys think Vulkan will be made available on Apple platforms?
@Prismatic no
7
Q: how to add MinGW bin directory to my system path?

niroI am using Windows XP. I am trying to add a new library to my Dev C++. For that, I need to install MinGW and then I have been instructed to add bin directory of MinGW to my system path. But, I don’t know how to do it. Please guide me (step by step) to add this to my system path.

12:26
What's the point if they don't get it on OSX / iOS
Lounge<HelpfulOverflow>
@psychoCoder Press SysKey (windows icon) + PauseBreak. Go to advanced tab, environment(al?) variables, system variables. Double-click on the Path variable. Append ";C:\MinGW\bin" to it. Save everything & restart all command prompts
The verbibols aren't environ mental
@Prismatic They are like at the head of its development, but they are doing it for other people.
@nabijaczleweli @fredoverflow @sehe Thank you guys!
12:27
They are doing it for the karma
They' doin' it fo' da bitch
@Jefffrey I read an article where an nvidia dev said they didn't know if Apple was going to adopt vulkan at all
But if they are in the working group or whatever, I guess thats a good sign
@Griwes He makes it sound as if stream API can randomly choose between sequential and parallel execution on whim. (that's a lie, you have to do call .parallel())
Much better already
12:30
@Prismatic Yes, they are in the Khronos Group
@Jefffrey That was in comparison to Cygwin
@TonyTheLion well, one left to jump
@sehe A place called Trolltunga in Norway. FYI
Ty
@thecoshman It's a backfrop. Not a front drop
@Prismatic I guess Metal will have better integration with iOS stuff, but Vulkan is going to be supported by all operating systems that support OpenGL
12:31
@sehe a wiffwaf?
> Any bug will be tough to find.
> 1. Sell out.
> 2. Pay people to code for you
> 3. Apply Linus's Principle
> 4. ???
> 5. All bugs are easy to find
@Jefffrey What if Vulkan on Apple platforms just calls Metal directly lol
Also Vulkan is awful.
@Jefffrey afaik... no, it's a separate api. just supporting opengl != supporting vulkan
Somehow they managed to make it even more low level
12:32
Can't be worse than OpenGL (right?)
@Jefffrey That was the point
@Jefffrey but at least it's unified again, shit makes (no) sense across the board
user1804599
> Vulkan is a low-level
user1804599
there it goes
plus once you have a nice low level api sorted, it's ~trivial~ to abstract it.
12:33
> ~trviail~
So they keep going lower and we keep making higher abstractions
@Jefffrey what
@Prismatic might be
Somehow they tried to make it low-level and succeeded how did they manage that
@Jefffrey that was the very point dude
> Oh baby jesus that's a lot of work for a hello triangle. They weren't joking when they said that developers that don't need extreme performance should stick with heavier APIs like OpenGL.
Oh baby jesus indeed
12:36
it has different use cases than OpenGL
it's for engine developers, mostly
which is what people were using OpenGL for anyway so I don't get why are you complaining
There was that buzz article about the 600 API calls for the hello triangle program.
@Jefffrey yeah, but in practice, who renders one triangle? That's a trivial 'hello world', and not what you should aim the api towards. You want to make it easy to load in complex models and render those efficiently. Yes, the low level stuff will be tedious and have lots of tweaking, but at the high level, "load model, render model"
That's quite impressive.
Writing in OpenGL directly is very often a mistake
It's like you are moaning that you can't just turn the key to start an F1 engine.
12:38
Also lol
I want my rendering api totes low level except not that much low level
> OpenGL
> high-level
OpenGL just became high level
You can reimplement OpenGL with Vulkan
and then modify it. You can get your own OpenGL
isn't that cool
@Jefffrey OpenGL did not change
Do you love OpenGL's API so much?
because it's most certainly pretty shitty
if you don't want to change from OGL, don't
I wonder how easy it would be to piece-meal move over to Vulkan...
12:40
not easy if you find OpenGL too hard vOv
would you have to get rid of all your OGL code to use any Volakn...
yes.
unless you provide a shim layer
@thecoshman mmm (NSFWish)
I mean, if you spot that a certain part of your OGL code is a hot spot and you want to improve it...
I am p sure Vulkan won't keep up the whole OpenGL state just for the fun of it
12:42
@thecoshman The perception of how high level it is changed
@BartekBanachewicz nah
idk what you're complaining about
@BartekBanachewicz hmm... would be nice if some clever clogs does provide a drop in replacement for OpenGL that is Vulkan with a OGL face. So a bit of build tweaking, boom, you are using volkan.
That a low-level API is low-level?
@thecoshman OpenGL doesn't expose Vulkan descriptors for its own stuff or whatnot, so prolly no.
12:42
@BartekBanachewicz oh I very much doubt it too
@thecoshman I am pretty sure this will appear sooner or later
I mean, you can certainly use them side-by-side, but don't expect to be able to truly mix them freely.
but really, fuck OpenGL and its global state
Vulkan is a much nicer basis to a purely functional rendering API
12:43
@milleniumbug Not really quite relevant, imho - you can't easily parallelize for, you can easily parallelize that foreach thingy, hence foreach is almost guaranteed to be superior in all cases.
we just need Haskell bindings
But that guy makes it look like that made it worse.
@BartekBanachewicz would be interesting if once V is 'stable' GL spec becomes basically a standard lib for wrapping V
Which is why we can't have nice things.
If I won't kill myself on a motorcycle Hate will 100% get Vulkan backend
12:44
wat
@thecoshman I doubt Kronos will endorse an implementation
if anything, proprietary competing implementations will appear
@BartekBanachewicz ah true...
@Griwes Doesn't make what I said untrue - he's just spreading FUD and both what I said and what you said is an example of that.
yeah, it's a impl detail really
@milleniumbug Yeah, agreed.
12:45
@BartekBanachewicz Oh, is Hate some kind of technology? I thought you hated motorcycles so much that you were going to kill yourself. (And then parse error.)
@BartekBanachewicz DX on Vulkan.
@fredoverflow it's his Haskell OGL thing
Mar 3 at 9:40, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@BartekBanachewicz Say, for instance you can migrate a traditional OpenGL program to use Vulkan features by replacing glload or whatever with the Vulkan shim and then gradually replacing bits as you go along.
@thecoshman He should make it more obvious by naming it Hosgell.
user1804599
hos geil
12:48
> A container adapter controls and communicates with a container
oh I am not in the mood for that shit
@BartekBanachewicz Does that mean that if you kill yourself with other means, then Hate will still be Vulkan backended?
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, you convinced me there
user1804599
I cannot decide.
@fredoverflow Goshling?
@sehe Coshling.
12:51
Hulkan
@rightfold What are the choices?
@Jefffrey somehow, yes
user1804599
@fredoverflow Downtime, Emerald and Lagg.
Are these 3 projects or 3 names for the same project?
@thecoshman well it's not really specific to OpenGL
user1804599
12:55
Three projects.
OpenGL is just a backend
@rightfold Too bad, I would have suggested the name nightfold :)

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