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13:00
@Ven Yes. If you argue that my version has a lot of actual simplicity. :)
user1804599
Mill VM is simple and C++!
Ven
Ven
@sehe Y'know, I could argue that simplicity is linked to the number of error lines you get when you do a small thing wrong :P
Not to mention the testability and testing
user1804599
Simplicity is about how decoupled something is.
@Ven That'd mostly say something about the complexity of the error message. But yeah. You could count layers of abstraction/indirection.
user1804599
13:01
It's simple if it does one and only one thing.
user1804599
If it does more than one thing then it is complex.
@rightfold Yup. And this is the fallacy in the "error message" metric: it's not measuring decoupling at the highest level of abstraction. Instead, it extrudes all underlying levels of abstraction that should remain irrelevant.
Concepts and Modules FTW.
Ven
Ven
Concepts and Modules FTW ;-)
(did they remove the c++03 export keyword?)
user1804599
No.
user1804599
I would avoid modules if they don't give me my nice separation of interface and implementation.
Ven
Ven
13:05
"In c++ 2011 that functionality was removed from the c++ standard. "
user1804599
Duplicating the interface all over the place makes it more difficult to change, which is good.
Ven
Ven
yeah, copy pasting is good because it makes stuff harder to change!
Xeo
Xeo
@Ven They removed the functionaly, but the keyword is still reserved.
derp
our CEO just made us a surprise and dropped by
had some chat with him
I keep forgetting our company is so small actually
Xeo
Xeo
We're 17 people total here.
13:19
@Xeo everyone in one place?
What did export do again?
@Jefffrey allowed you to put template bodies in .cpp files
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz One place, 5 rooms used
we have 2 rooms here in Gdańsk, one smaller and one open space for everone else
@BartekBanachewicz how small?
13:20
@thecoshman circa 80
grown twofold in the last ~year
I sometimes forget how big we really are :\
you work in Ericsson (IIRC)?
Indeed
user1804599
People who write AWK code like { if (NR == 1) { ... } }.
user1804599
Instead of just NR == 1 { ... }.
13:22
morning all
Number of employees
118,055
woah
user1804599
AWK is like, MapReduce.
so I got my tee with "Huuuge" imprint
thank god @Cicada doesn't work here
@BartekBanachewicz my site alone is an order of magnitude more people than your entire company :\
Intel site in Gdańsk is well over 1k people too
user1804599
13:24
Gdañsk.
In what is likely a surprise to most, a recent emoji study found that Canadians enjoy sending the smiling poop emoji more than any other country in the world
go canada
Why does Ericcson sound do familiar but I ding know them?
Once I was offered a job in one of the largest consultancies in the world, I turned it down for a 10 ppl startup, because I thought the one at larger company was only 30%-40% development, mostly maintance. The other was like 90% development. I stayed at the smaller company for only 2 months.
user1804599
user1804599
One issue I see is this essentially mimics std::unique_ptr, but without the ability to get() a reference that can easily exist in multiple places.
@Cinch Sony Ericsson?
user1804599
@Mgetz using is an abomination syntax-wise.
user1804599
Should've been use x = f(); like var x = f();.
uses is better
uses crt;
user1804599
With no body but in the existing scope.
13:28
@rightfold it is, what's funnier is that they list that proposal under "some interest" and "No interest" at the same time
user1804599
The proposal is terrible.
@BartekBanachewicz ah, no wonder
Also that C# snippet does sort of emulate C++
Isn't C# right in between Java and C++?
@Cinch Erlang?
@AlexM. what.
13:31
erlang
erlang was created by ericsson
I don't even Ericsson.
noob
user1804599
Erlang is great.
I forgot the name of that JVM language I absolutely liked earlier
lol
all that comes to mind is "Kettle"
13:34
no, lemme google it
Kotlin
lol
my memory is not helpful today
@Cinch what does "right in between Java and C++" mean?
Xeo
Xeo
@AlexM. I just can't take that name seriously. "Kot" is a very formal name for shit in German.
@Xeo it's also a Polish brand of ketchup
Xeo
Xeo
Then I can't take that brand serious either.
@BartekBanachewicz it's also a Polish Jefffrey killer
13:35
Oh THAT Ericsson
I think I had one of their flip phones, lol
sup folks
I kinda wish I wrote languages other than C++ more often at work
@BartekBanachewicz as in C++ like syntax, Java-like handling of implementation, C++ like semantics
the monotony gets to you eventually
@ShotgunNinja who are you?
@AlexM. Where do you work
Xeo
Xeo
13:37
@AlexM. I've written some C# lately, for tooling
@Cinch who who, who who
@Xeo I write C# so rarely :(
Xeo
Xeo
I wanted to do it in Python, but my boss said no :(
only when I need to do UI work
@Cinch you're oversimplifying things tremendously
13:37
this applies to all platforms
Okay, I am very troubled. I would not like to admit it - I am facing the dilemma of becoming a small time real estate developer in Australia or going overseas seeking opportunities in the IT field once this small construction thing is over. The real estate development plan is more concrete & with a higher chance of making more money. Although there is also a small chance of losing money being a business.
I absolutely love sydney & very happy with what I am doing now, but I sense I would be bored with Sydney soon, as such I probably want to move on to somewhere else as I always have in my life
Xeo
Xeo
Or Rust. Or Haskell. But I don't think that's a good idea when I'd be the only one able to maintain those.
user1804599
@AlexM. s/\(/)/
user1804599
C# is terrible.
Xeo
Xeo
eh
13:38
C# is my favorite language
boo!
@chmod711telkitty Well, what do you want to accomplish in your life?
I like C# too.
I also like a lot of other languages, including C++
I hate all languages.
I just don't get the chance to use them as much as I want.
C# is okay. I actually don't know much about it except that it was Microsoft's thing
13:40
@AlexM. boo is your favorite language? C#!
user1804599
I may change some of the Mill semantics to make pointers explicit.
@Cinch *fault
@BartekBanachewicz minus Haskell, of course
@Cinch Then why do you feel compelled to tell us that it's OK?
My initial thoughts of it were "Oh great, Microsoft remade Java, this is gonna be shit"
13:40
@Cinch I hate it too, albeit a bit less than others.
but after using it, I'm pleasantly surprised
@AndyProwl no I don't use boo at all
Lol Boo
@AlexM. I was just making a stupid joke
user1804599
Like in Perl.
13:40
I'm not sure how it is but IIRC it's like python
Boo = ghetto Python?
@ShotgunNinja remade Java with a C as the first letter. How did that not raise your expectations?
@AndyProwl no worries I got it but couldn't think of a clever post-joke :\
user1804599
It reduces accidental aliasing.
user1804599
Arrays can be COW.
13:41
@Columbo Because names are invented by marketing folks?
@Cinch I want to make drones capable of delivery luaggages to set destination. As such, I would better off being a real estate developer because it has a better chance of making the finance available
What's so different about C# as a language, really? Like, why use it?
I've worked with enough stupid fucking marketing people to not trust a name.
@rightfold I like milking my arrays, personally
@AlexM. Admittedly it's hard to make a clever post-stupid-joke
13:41
@chmod711telkitty that's it?
@Cinch boo is cool. It has my code in it.
Is it possible in a C++ program to "eval" an runtime-generated string of asm?
user1804599
@AlexM. then you'll sure like millking them!
user1804599
@StackedCrooked sure.
@StackedCrooked Why wouldn't it?
13:42
@Cinch yes, for the next 15 years, it's one of my two main goals
user1804599
Just embed an assembler and use mmap to allocate executable pages.
the other one is less realistic
@cinch, what's your goal
@R.MartinhoFernandes Might be rejected by the kernel?
I don't set goals that I can not reach
@StackedCrooked Why would it?
13:42
@chmod711telkitton I want to revigorate and innovate the state of education within my state
user1804599
@StackedCrooked How do JIT-compilers work?
(I fear you have hidden requirements you didn't state)
@rightfold Or just flat-out interpret it.
An example of using this to build a compiler for an esoteric language we'll refer to as "brainf"
lol
user1804599
@R.MartinhoFernandes INEFFICIENT!
@Xeo should've really called it Kettle
13:43
@Cinch too broad
I also want to abolish the ridiculous college debt system and replace it with a more practical system like apprenticeships
easier to remember
Doesn't modern kernels have this rule that memory is either writable or executable but not both.
user1804599
@StackedCrooked No.
user1804599
13:43
They may have rules it can't be write-only.
@StackedCrooked You don't need that to evaluate assembly strings.
@chmod711telkitty This is a LIFE goal. I like to think big and meaningful
But the assembly string is generated in the writable data section.
@Cinch Honestly, it's got nice language features, and is useful enough for a lot of applications while still having the flexibility and tool support of a more developed language. The downsides are that it's mostly geared towards Windows, and that it doesn't compile down to native binaries in most cases, meaning you need a VM to run it on a platform
13:44
@Cinch good luck :p
user1804599
But disallowing PROT_WRITE | PROT_EXEC would just be stupid.
@StackedCrooked C++ has no such thing.
@ShotgunNinja interesting. Wish it could compile to native
user1804599
@StackedCrooked sections are only of interest to the loader.
@chmod711telkitty Well I'm trying to do several things
user1804599
13:45
Put machine code in executable page, set program counter to start of page, done.
I'm not going for an educational degree and I'm banking pretty hard on educational tech
@Cinch It can in certain situations; most applications which use it either don't take advantage of it, or don't need it enough.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ok. I should rephrase my question as "a linux program (probably written C++)"
@StackedCrooked I don't see how that changes anything!
My dream is to have a low cost system for kids that acts similar to a community college with scholarships that allows them a faster path to meaningful careers and employment
13:46
I know there are a few tools to compile C# down to native bytecode, just like there are with Java, but they either only work for some platforms or work by cross-compiling through another language.
I am 60-80% sure I could make it with the drone, I might not be able to make money with it. But making a drone capable of delivery goods to set destination should be relatively straight forward in a lab environment
@ShotgunNinja Honestly I think C++ deserves to be cleaned up. The feature bloat is ridiculous if you don't differentiate between standards
It's the x86 of programming?
Or I guess that's C
I don't think C++ or C need to be cleaned up. They're both pretty robust languages.
@ShotgunNinja State of the art C++ is cross-compiled through another language! I don't see how it matters.
@ShotgunNinja lol, robust.
13:49
@ShotgunNinja "Native bytecode" you mean hardware instructions?
@Mgetz yeah that
@chmod711telkitty not sure about this. Other companies are already doing this so maybe you could check with them
20 per cent of UK gamers say they are either pre-ordering fewer titles, or have stopped pre-ordering altogether.
This comes from a survey conducted by Ipsos Media’s GameTrack project on behalf of MCV.
@LightningRacisinObrit gamers hailing from your homeland are smart
Or perhaps when space comes along you can start the Hocotate Shipping Company
@Cinch but I am specifically talking about leaving my drone at home when I go hiking, then in the evening, with a click of a button, my drone would send all my gears over.
or having a drone hovering behind you when hiking
13:51
I'm sorry but C++ is almost 3.5 languages in one: C, C++03, Assembly, C++11.
@StackedCrooked Anything you can convert to, say, x86 instructions, can be "eval"ed in C++. That does not require actually converting to x86 instructions, though.
Now this is hilarious: youtube.com/watch?v=eYJouoSc2gU
@chmod711telkitty very niche. Interesting
or sending drones over to the supermarket to pick up your shopping while living like a hermit
@chmod711telkitty that's gonna take some serious AI work
user1804599
@wilx mark as NSFW?
@sehe Is it? I am watching it at work. :)
@Cinch I would start with buying things online, then send drone with verification code over to pick things up
anecdotal jerkery :/
@chmod711telkitty yeah how would the drone get there?
13:53
supermarket has latitude & longitude
Also I still like my idea for Hyper-lang lol
@AlexM. hail hydra
@R.MartinhoFernandes I mean at runtime. Something like calling asm(...) but with runtime string.
@StackedCrooked Yes, I mean at runtime, too.
@chmod711telkitty would it roll there?
13:53
@wilx how the fuck is that SFW???
@user4419802, Not so. If you have int arr[3]; int *p = arr;, then p + 4 is undefined behaviour, even without dereferencing. — chris 4 mins ago
Fly?
@rightfold cool
Can someone explain to me why this is UB? ^
@LightningRacisinObrit How is it not? No nudity, sex, violence, etc.
13:54
@Borgleader Because you incremented a pointer beyond the array to which it points?
@Cinch it would fly there, using auto piloting system
user1804599
@StackedCrooked There's no difference between interpreting assembly code and interpreting Python code.
@Borgleader there is no guarantee that pushing the pointer forward will end up "anywhere"; you're relying on the fact that arrays are implemented in such fashion
@Borgleader Pointers are not just numbers that may or may not point to things. They are magic objects that point to other objects that exist .. or NULL.
user1804599
13:54
C++ is Turing-complete.
Anything else is UB.
@LightningRacisinObrit I know thats what the standard says, but why does it need to be UB? what if i dont do anything with the damn thing
it just has a value that happens to point there
i dont get why it needs to be UB
@rightfold Ooh! The mmap permissions also happen at runtime.
user1804599
Yes.
I didn't think of that.
13:55
@chmod711telkitty yeah auto piloting, I'd figure, would take a lot
user1804599
That's what the protection flags are for.
@Borgleader Some pointer values may not be allowed to be generated.
@Borgleader I see. You're asking for a rationale.
@Cinch your places has a coordinate, supermarket pick up place has coordinate. By using GPS, the drone is able to continuously correct its path. It also has sensors installed as to avoid collision
user1804599
13 mins ago, by rightfold
@StackedCrooked How do JIT-compilers work?
13:55
Well, why should it be well-defined? What would a pointer that points to ERGLEBERGLEBRAP mean?
Pointers are not numbers.
@chmod711telkitty collision detection isnt easy in real life either
Also GPS is not extremely accurate it all conditions
@LightningRacisinObrit to make pointer addition work without context-sensitive subsets of integers.
@rightfold If I knew that I wouldn't have asked my question. Imbecile.
user1804599
@StackedCrooked :D :D :D
13:56
p + n - n = p? Not so fast. p + (n - n) = p? Ok.
λ (-16) `mod` (-7)
-2
λ -16 `mod` 7
-2
Hmmm
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why would you do that?
Also, no, p + n - n = UB
user1804599
@StackedCrooked Somebody uses this to call CPUID in C#: stackoverflow.com/questions/3216535/x86-x64-cpuid-in-c-sharp
I have a family member who is a land surveyor. GPS is not accurate
@LightningRacisinObrit Yeah, fixed.
13:57
I don't see what the expression p+0=p proves.
@Cinch well if it's flying between 5 - 50 metres height most of the times, I would assume most things encountered would be static
@Cinch It can be.
@chmod711telkitty people are not static
@Cinch people are not 5 metres high
@LightningRacisinObrit still not accurate enough for boundary studies
user1804599
13:58
@R.MartinhoFernandes P=NP
It can also be trivially jammed and spoofed. Interfering with GPS is extremely cheap and easy. Do not rely on it for any mission critical systems.
@LightningRacisinObrit I think his point is that they are mathematically equivalent and so they should yield the same result
And, yes, I know that people and organisations all over the world rely on it for mission critical systems.
@chmod711telkitty birds...
Easy rep today
5
Q: Is incrementing a null pointer well-defined?

Luchian GrigoreThere are lots of examples of undefined/unspecified behavior when doing pointer arithmetics - pointers have to point inside the same array (or one past the end), or inside the same object, restrictions on when you can do comparisons/operations based on the above, etc. Is the following operation ...

13:58
(My job is helping them)
@LightningRacisinObrit Weren't you mentioned in some newspaper once
@Cinch yeah & trees, but the drone has sensors & I am not expecting it to be flying super fast. I also expect birds to give way.
@AndyProwl That's nonsense. It assumes that pointers are numbers and should be subject to the same rules of arithmetic. But pointers are not numbers (not sure how many times this needs repeating before it sinks in)
For your job?
@LightningRacisinObrit It's not that you would want to do it, it's just that it makes pointer addition a less nebulous operation by imbuing it with properties more becoming of an operation you can reason about.
13:58
@LightningRacisinObrit Oh, right.
@LightningRacisinObrit I get the whole "it needs to point to an object to mean a thing" but i dont see why moving it around is UB as long as i dont deref or do anything with it. Not sure what robot meant by "some values may not be allowed to be generated"
@Borgleader The first line of your latest message is a contradiction.
@Borgleader Some systems have trap values.
that sounded funny
13:59
@Columbo Many times

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