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sbi
sbi
10:00
This room is an odd thing in the SE universe. It's an enclave of what's close to a democracy, if not anarchy, in the middle of a huge and sometimes harshly oppressive empire. I'd like to preserve it that way, because I like the room a lot the way it is. Nevertheless, at the size we've grown into, I feel that this now needs some structure.
If the rest of you regulars (by whatever definition) disagrees with me on the ten users rule, I'm ready to accept that. All I am asking for is: Agree an alternative criterion instead that's up to the spirit of this room. I'd hate to see this experiment fail. (Not just to spite Jeff, although I free admit that his autocratic attitude is an important incentive. :^>)
So what say you? How are we going to discuss this to give everybody a chance to have their say? How are we going to decide if it's not an obvious agreement?
Summoning the regulars that are here or on that list: @Dead, @Xeo, @Tony, @Stacked, @jalf, @Alf, @RMartinho, @Cat, @FredOverflow, @Luc?
Xeo
Xeo
Gimme a sec, I need to digest that wall of text first.
sbi
sbi
@Xeo Ok. I'll have breakfast while you guys read what I vomited into the room.
@Xeo "Waaaay to complicated." Isn't that your answer? :P
oh hi
Xeo
Xeo
10:06
@Mysticial ? :)
give me a sec to read it, I'm eating atm
Xeo
Xeo
Yes it is, but I added awesome ascii art!
@sbi hmm?
that's a lot of t ext
do we have to read that?
Xeo
Xeo
lol, everyone's saying the same
@jalf If you want to discuss room ownership, yes. .P
ok, basically, I think it's good as it is... don't see why it should be changed\
10:08
@sbi The most-frequent-users rule seems to have worked fine until now. I don't see the need to change it. Restricting it to 10 is fine by me.
Not knowing what we're talking about has never stopped me from discussing!
@jalf It is suck! ...so what are we talking about?
sbi
sbi
@jalf No, you don't have to read this. Note, though, that according to my criterion, you would be kicked off the owner list.
ok
fundamentally, I think that there are not too many owners, as it stands
10:09
where is this list of regular users?
sbi
sbi
@TonyTheLion Changed from what? We don't have a current scheme. Which again and again leads to awkward situations.
what we have to remember is that being an owner actually gives very little power
Xeo
Xeo
We currently got 13
I can move messages to the Bin and that's pretty much it
but secondly
@Xeo +1'ed since it looks like it took half an hour to make. :)
10:10
ah, found it I think
@sbi well we do have the criterion of "reguluars", which I think is good enough
perhaps you have to define what "regulars" are
because of the nature of the chat room, it's difficult to even define
Xeo
Xeo
@DeadMG You can remove other owners, you can change chat settings, etc, but all that is resettable through mod intervention
like "anyone who's been here for more then N months, at least 3 times a week"
@TonyTheLion It is defined by the list of frequent users in the info page.
10:10
I don't know
sbi
sbi
We would have three dozen room owners by now (at the very least), if I wouldn't kick off users now and then — and I have taken a lot of heat for that. I don't want to be the only one to take the blame for that anymore.
even if we defined ten room owners, when would we ever see all of them in one place at one time to make any kind of consensus decision?
I don't have a problem with how it works now
and I think that being around at different times of day, in different timezones, etc, is only going to make matters worse
@sbi well, you've done a good job at taking the heat :P
sbi
sbi
10:12
@DeadMG Who said we need consensus?
by the way, for those like me who wasn't aware of this list, it's the right column here
@sbi You should pin that announce or it'll get buried. (it's already buried)
then how is that different to now?
yea, perhaps the guys that were here originally should just be room owners
@TonyTheLion and when they're not around?
10:12
@TonyTheLion Pretty much all of them are gone.
also what does "originally" mean?
Xeo
Xeo
@sbi @jalf is in the frequent user list, actually
and, more to the point, nobody should be on the list or not on the list because of their presence at some arbitrary date in the past
you know, there's a few of us that have been here longest, these should be room owners
@jalf Yes. Indeed!
10:13
what's the problem with the current approach, anyway?
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked That's the owner list, @jalf pointed to the frequent user list
@StackedCrooked no, left column shows owners, right column shows frequent users
@DeadMG you're still here
sbi
sbi
@Xeo Oh, I'd swear he wasn't 10mins ago.
Xeo
Xeo
10:14
Yeah, @alf was instead
it fluctates quite a bit
I was not exactly a founding father of this place
don't know how long it existed before I came, but it certainly did
close enough though, you've been here for all the time I've known
make you a founding father in my eyes :P
rofl
honestly though, it might just be me but I don't really see it as a big deal
10:14
I think the only one here, as far as I know, who actually was part of that group is sbi
Suppose we have 12 active users. Then the bottom ranking might fluctuate reguarly.
If I fall off the list, it's hardly the end of the world
sbi
sbi
@TonyTheLion That would leave @Potatoswatter and me, you know.
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked yep
@jalf You won't be able to star messages anymore.
sbi
sbi
10:15
@jalf As I said: I took all the heat so far.
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked pin, not star
@sbi oh, well, then, just pick the 10 most frequent and ONLY change if one of them actually dissappears, meaning not here for > month or so
well I agree that people who aren't frequent users should not be room owners
so you can blame me next time that comes up
Xeo
Xeo
We got about 15 frequent users though
10:16
@sbi well, when it comes to taking heat, you've got my full support ;)
Xeo
Xeo
And only 10 are shown on that list
@Xeo take the 10 MOST FREQUENT
well, I'd say more accurately the problem is defining exactly who they are
@sbi I'll take it with you, when I'm around
2 mins ago, by StackedCrooked
Suppose we have 12 active users. Then the bottom ranking might fluctuate reguarly.
10:17
the list only shows 10, which I think isn't fair as the bottom clearly fluctuates
I'd say just use the 10 frequently users + a bit of gut feeling. Since the bottom end fluctuates a lot, no point in kicking and re-adding the same users every half hour
frequently on the frequent users list? :P
so just cut people a bit of slack before de-owning them
would that work to everyone's satisfaction?
sbi
sbi
@StackedCrooked That sounds very reasonable — until you have to actually decide whether to kick someone off the list. How do you tell?
10:18
I don't really have a problem with that
if you're off the list, you're a candidate for being cut. But if we suspect that you'll probably bounce back onto the frequent list soon enough, the owners currently on the frequent list might choose to give you a "grace period"
@sbi Well, we can't make a mathematical, objective determination, IMO
Alf and Johannes are frequent and long-time users. I think they are more deserving than me to be a room owner.
because simply, SO doesn't offer enough information for us to draw proper conclusions
sbi
sbi
@DeadMG That would make it a list of 7 or 8, actually.
10:19
@StackedCrooked I disagree
alf and johannes are long-time users, but I wouldn't describe them as particularly frequent
Xeo
Xeo
@jalf Well, just say you're off the list and weren't seen for a week or two. Sounds fair, non? And if you get back, readding you should be no problem
I feel that I see you more often than them
sbi
sbi
@StackedCrooked I think @Alf actually came later than you. ICBWT.
@Xeo exactly
and you're higher than them on the frequent list
10:20
My point is just that it'd be hell to manage if we were obligated to remove/add owners every time the frequent list changes
so actually, I'd have no problems with booting alf, johannes, or both off the owners list
since someone might go "X is an owner, and he's not on the list, that's unfair, I demand you remove him"
so I think the rule should simply be "if you're off the list, you can be removed at the other owners discretion"
if they think you'll be back in half an hour, they can choose to let you stay. If not, they can kick yu at will
@DeadMG I tend to agree, they're not here that often, from what I've seen
infact, @sbi, you want me to take the credit heat for it?
but if you're on the frequent user list, then you have a right to be added as owner
sbi
sbi
10:22
@jalf Nobody was proposing that. Usually I go to clean out the owner list whenever the subject comes up, which has been everything between twice a month and once in three months. And I'm fine with continuing to do it this way. That would allow some fluctuation. All I want is a decision to point at when someone gets "excited" about being kicked off.
@jalf That seems a good one to me.
@jalf At the owners' discretion. I don't want a rule that forces me to add some asshole to the list because he's been posting a lot for a fortnight.
@sbi yeah, that's what I mean. If you're on the list, and want to be an owner, that's your right, so just point it out to an existing owner. If you're off the list, you can be removed if the other owners think you're unlikely to bounce back
Xeo
Xeo
@sbi if(user.is_off_the_list && room.owners.most_agree_to_kick(user)) room.deown(user);
@sbi but then you're back to having to take personal responsibility for picking "suitable" owners
and taking the heat for the decisions
no, we are, all of us
I thought the point was to have some automatic rule for who can be owners, so people don't have to blame you (or other owners)
10:24
it is, and that rule is, if you want to be an owner then be here more
perhaps their should be some consensus between X amount of current owners before taking off an owner
sbi
sbi
@Xeo That would require a vote by the owners. I disapprove.
the only exceptions are for where the bottom of the list changes every ten minutes
like say 3 current owners should agree before taking someone off
honestly, I'm fine with a simple "owners decide" too, I just thought the point was to make a rule we can refer to if people complain that they should be made owners
sbi
sbi
10:25
@jalf That is true. Still.
Xeo
Xeo
@sbi Well, wouldn't that count for "at the discretion of the owners"?
brb washing up
sbi
sbi
@TonyTheLion That's not anarchic enough for my taste. :)
oh @DeadMG does washing up?! :P
@sbi well, what do you want then?
I was trying to take some of the heat you get off your shoulders by sharing it with others
but it seems you enjoy getting it by yourself, you greedy bonobo :P
sbi
sbi
@TonyTheLion Of course, just as everybody else, I want an anarchy where everybody does what I want them to. :)
10:27
@sbi oh I see that type of "anarchy dictatorship" :P
I like to consider my self a some what regular fellow here. Personally I don't care to a room owner, unless there is something I don't know about. But I think the current system is good, those who use the room regularly get to exert a bit a power towards keeping it the way they want it. Though I would like to see perhaps some sort of elected room owner, for people a bit like me in terms of usage, but in a time zone where most of the other room owners are not online
can always add a special cause that "in extraordinary cases, owners will decide", but again, then people will get blame the person who rejects them for ownership
@thecoshman you're on the frequent users list now. No need to be elected for anything :p
oh wait, wrong list
@jalf :O
well, I guess being room owner you should be able to "take blame", whatever that means
@jalf :'(
10:29
never mind then :D
sbi
sbi
@TonyTheLion No. That would require me to use force. Can't you do what I want without me forcing you?
no one ever died from "taking blame"
@sbi if you ask nicely :P
Hello.
@jalf Well, here's the thing, I really don't mind taking blame
anyway, as I see it there are two reasons for controlling the owners list: (1) at least one owner needs to exist, in order for the room to stay alive, and (2) an "evil" owner could cause a lot of trouble
10:29
so if there's anyone that needs kicking off, just ask me to do it in some private room
the actual "benefit" of being an owner can be pretty much disregarded. You get to pin stuff, woooo
I think the criteria for becoming a room owner are rather nice, but voting to remove those owners would be wise... encase some one goes mad with power
@jalf ohhh I love pinning stuff...
Xeo
Xeo
@jalf And you get to change the owner list :)
sbi
sbi
@thecoshman See, I think this is the problem. Everybody thinks they're here frequently. You are not, according to my gut feeling. Had someone put you on that list, and I kicked you off, that might get us a bit of storm here.
10:30
and I love to unpin it
Is new variable array in the C++ standard? Right now I need to use new int[n] and delete []
see, I think he's here regularly but not frequently, as it were
@sbi I would tend to agree, haven't seen him here that much
Xeo
Xeo
@user800454 Huh?
10:31
@user800454 std::vector<int> is way better, and no, stack-based VLAs aren't in
@thecoshman except that voting is a pain. Have to get people online, and wait for everyone to vote, and write down rules and regulations
@sbi well, I said some what frequently... and like I said, I personally don't much care either way
sbi
sbi
@TonyTheLion I have to admit that you have a point there. OTOH, so far I feel like I was the only one who ever kicked anybody off the owner list. So you guys would have to do something to live up to that ideal.
@DeadMG There's no truly private rooms here. Everybody can read everywhere.
@jalf oh just be like... quick vote... should @jalf be less silly about how complex votes are?
@DeadMG I was hoping that it would be there. Trying to not use the standard library if I can
10:32
that's true, I guess
@user800454 Then what you get is your own fault, realistically
Xeo has removed Als from the list of this room's owners.
Xeo
Xeo
@sbi There, done. :P
@sbi well, next time someone needs kicking, pin me with a name, and I will do it with no problem
@sbi Most of the time I don't remove people because I feel that you know more about them than I do
@Xeo fair enough actually, he hasn't been here much at all
Xeo
Xeo
10:33
Last seen: 5 days ago
yea for how long?
but I guess that actually, according to the list, I am the most frequent user, so statistically, I'd see the other frequent users the most often
@DeadMG I know that it is faily low level but "Hey" if not how else can I learn some new tricks in C++
sbi
sbi
@thecoshman If someone goes mad with power, you don't want to have to wait until Monday evening to give the other owners a chance to vote.
10:34
@DeadMG do you have no life at all? :P
@sbi true...
@user800454 If you want to learn it, then implement some containers. But don't go without.
@TonyTheLion C++ is life!
@TonyTheLion I leave it open on my other screen whilst playing working
sbi
sbi
@DeadMG I'm actually fairly sure you're around here more than I am.
10:34
I guess you just need to be able to trust that other room owners are not going to be a dick
sbi
sbi
@DeadMG See.
the power, IT'S ALL MIIINE :D
and a "bad" owner will ignore all the voting stuff anyway. So you'd be delaying those who do the sensible thing, without in any way limiting those who want to wreck the room
Xeo
Xeo
@DeadMG Not yet. You first need to get rid of the other owners.
look, if you want to remove someone, just DO IT, if then, they are removed and it wasn't right, they can just be added again, no biggie is it?
sbi
sbi
10:35
@thecoshman And I'm fine with that. Really. Sigh. I guess I'm just sick of taking all the blame for kicking users off.
this room is already wrecked, I'm here :P
@sbi puppet account?
@sbi Then we'll just wait for them to not be here before kicking them off. Then they don't know who to blame :D
sbi
sbi
@TonyTheLion That's what I have done so far.
@sbi ok ape, then we shall stand up and take the blame with you
10:36
@DeadMG was reading up on dynamic memory allocation and there seems to be various algorithms some of them documented by Donald Knuth
if we're around
@user800454 You're not supposed to invent your own dynamic memory allocator. You'd waste several decades getting it reasonably reliable and performant.
btw... who is Luc? not sure if I have ever seen them... but apparently they are a frequent user...
sbi
sbi
@DeadMG Well, since I only kick off users that aren't here frequently, it's very likely that they aren't here when i do this, no?
@sbi True true.
@thecoshman He is.
@thecoshman he was at one point... but not recently, from what I've seen
10:37
well, if I could find the damn button, I'd kick off Johannes right now
Xeo
Xeo
@TonyTheLion He was here just tonight
And yesterday evening
@DeadMG problems when debugging de-allocation and when there is fragmented memory. Some garbage collectors even intelligently predict when memory will be used this is the reason that C# and Java can be faster sometimes.
there are a couple other room owners that I don't think I have ever seen. But I don't see the harm in leaving them on the list; other then trying to keep it neat
sbi
sbi
@DeadMG What kind of an owner are you actually, when you don't know where to add/remove owners?
Xeo
Xeo
10:39
@sbi Adding and removing someone is easy when they're actually here
@user800454 Bwahahahaha. C# and Java have completely different memory systems than C++ and it's not even comparable, and they're not as fast by a long way
@DeadMG also problem from defragmented free memory blocks. But can be optimized when you know the size of the memory you want to allocated small means reuse and big means use another area for allocaion. This can also be hardware dependent
@sbi Because I always did it to someone who was in chat at the time
there's a button on individual users who are in chat right now to kick them off, and I always used that
sbi
sbi
@Xeo Oh. I didn't know that. How so?
'reparentation' the dam shitty words my work chucks at me ¬_¬
10:39
@DeadMG you are wrong. They use intelligent GC and they can sometimes be fastwer than C++, depends on the application.
@sbi haven't any idea where it is either
@user800454 hahahahahaha. It's not even remotely close.
Xeo
Xeo
@sbi Click on their picture
that worked
sbi
sbi
10:40
@DeadMG Oh. Lemme look...
why is wilhelm tell on there anyways?
I mean, seen him here once
@user800454 if C++ is slower then C# or Java chances are your doing it wrong
@user800454 Firstly, GC in general can be competitive with native allocators, but C# and Java force slow semantics in many, many cases and their bytecode interpretation is not as fast as C++'s native code execution.
sbi
sbi
@Xeo Damn, I never saw that! LOL!
@sbi lol
10:41
@DeadMG do not want to start a flaming war on OS or languages. Prefer to dicuss dynamic ememory allocation
sbi
sbi
@TonyTheLion @Alf did that last night. Basically, this (and @Alf's complaint to be kicked off) is what got me started on the topic.
well, in C++ if the general-purpose allocator isn't enough for you, then download or write a specialist one
@DeadMG agree
memory regions, object pools, etc
you can find object pools in Boost
@Feeds Johannes is some test object? always used for such operations :D
10:42
@sbi Well, I hardly ever see wilhelmtell on here and I don't think he should be an owner for sure
Boost will slow down my compilation to crawling speed, but intereded in use to much overbloated templated code if I can
and I also question how often Alf is here
and IMO, if he wants to add people who are virtually never here, then it certainly counts against his own eligibility
Xeo
Xeo
@user800454 2000 called, they want their prejudices against templates back.
10:43
I would say that Alf is here at least as much as I am... for what it's worth
@DeadMG any idea where I can find some nice research into these algos in C++?
@Xeo I was just wondering exactly how to phrase that
no
you can add me in owners list for your testing purposes :)
memory regions are pretty trivial to implement, and you can get an object pool from Boost, so I personally have little need
sbi
sbi
@DeadMG @jalf had just kicked him off the frequent users list. He was on it an hour ago.
10:45
@sbi Strange, because whenever I load it he's still on it
sbi
sbi
@DeadMG Well, I certainly agree with that. OTOH we didn't have any policy regarding that.
did you put him back on because he threw a fit?
memory pools have framentaion problems when you run them on a server for a while
Xeo
Xeo
@DeadMG I put him back on yesterday, as he was on the frequent user list, so no reason against it :P
sbi
sbi
@DeadMG Alf? He isn't on the frequent users list for me.
10:46
@sbi Whenever I load the page, it says Alf is on the list.
Xeo
Xeo
@DeadMG Do you maybe look at the owners, not the frequent users? :P
wrong list :P
sbi
sbi
@DeadMG Messed up your iterators? :)
@user800454 You probably used them wrong. There's no reason for an object pool or memory region to be fragmented
heh
10:47
How is the frequent users calculated do you know? If one of the definitely regular regulars was to so go on holiday and fall of the frequent users list, would you insist on removing them from the owners list?
I prefer ranges these days :P
Xeo
Xeo
@thecoshman Number of messages here + last time seen here, a function of that basically. Atleast it seems like that. Maybe add the amount of time they spent here
sbi
sbi
@thecoshman Either nobody would bother to clean out the list in that time, or he'd quickly be added back to the list when he came back.
@DeadMG perhaps he means that objects with in the pool... which could happen if objects are not neatly allocated or of uniform size...
@thecoshman Of uniform size is a requirement for object pooling
and neat allocation is the purpose of object pooling
Xeo
Xeo
10:49
@thecoshman They're templated on a type, you can't not have a uniform size
@DeadMG well then...
the fact that they are uniform size is what gives them the ability to be almost "perfect" allocators
It seems I might have been thinking of a different thing...
so did we reach an acceptable decision about the room owners?
the very first message in this room is... strange...
Oct 15 '10 at 7:55, by vaibhav
anyone dere..?
sbi
sbi
10:54
@DeadMG I'm in the process of trying to wrap it up. Gimme a moment.
Xeo
Xeo
@thecoshman lol, "dere".
sbi
sbi
Ok, since the discussion seems to have dried up, I'll try to recap what I think is the outcome of this discussion.
1. Frequent users are likely to become owners, although actual ownership is by the discretion of the owners.
2. Frequency is determined by the frequent users tab.
3. We are lenient with kicking people off, but whoever falls off the frequent users list might be kicked off at any time.
Did I get anything wrong? Did I forget anything? @Dead, @Xeo, @Tony, @Stacked, @jalf, @Alf, @RMartinho, @Cat, @FredOverflow, @Luc?
sounds ok with me
nope, I think that's everything
10:56
@sbi the 'dicks get kicked rule'
@sbi seems good to me
sbi
sbi
@thecoshman Well, if someone misbehaves, they are shunned. Do we really have to cast that into stone? I thought this was common sense?
static_cast<stone>(dicks_rule);
done, it's in stone
I would also say that bitching about being removed from owners list is considered reason enough to not get back on the list. Though you are still free to speak out if you feel it was unjust and doing so will should not be held against you, just dont go on and on about it
2
@TonyTheLion and suddenly all is better in the world :D
Xeo
Xeo
10:59
@thecoshman Can I bitch about being added to the owners list?
we can remove you, if you want?
Xeo
Xeo
:P
@Xeo ... yes... but it you are not allowed to then remove your self :P
we, as in me and my other self...

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