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11:00
Mar 14 at 17:21, by Pris
screw testing #yolo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That's racist
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Okay I changed things.
@Pris I know, but I found it hilarious anyway
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I try to make it so that the bold is the tl;dr
11:01
You need some code formatting in there, because you've dropped words where they look like HTML.
@Cinch you didnt answer anything
@Pris I decided to take a stab at the "real question" since people think he's asking the wrong question here.
@Cinch I think it's a valid point, but I don't think you quite explained enough why it's relevant to the question in order for it to be a valid answer. There's a good answer hiding in here but you're not quite there yet.
Note the italics on quite
11:02
Perhaps a conclusion paragraph that summarises in terms that relate to his apparent goals.
Like "So, either learn these topics or don't worry about it until you find that you actually need to. Until then, there will be plenty of C++ code that you do not understand, and that's okay. The trick is not to let it scare you away (e.g. to C; lol?!)"
@Cinch How is he asking the wrong question?
Permission to plagiarise granted, btw
@LightnessRacesinOrbit What is the license ?
@Pris Asking for explanations of entirely unrelated lines of code one at a time is the wrong way to learn C++. He's actually asking for broader understanding of large-scale C++ features, without realising it. Of course in reality he's asking for a bloody slap in the face for not bothering to read his book, but there we go.
The only thing wrong with his question is that its too basic and imo you should be able to google what <...> is in c++
11:04
@khajvah GPLL
General Public Lounge Licence
Why can't I see the funny char? Is it a font issue?
@Pris You are applying insufficient imagination.
@FredOverflow What do you mean? "See"? "Can't"? "Funny char"?
shitty development environment issue
@FredOverflow Is that... eclipse?
@Pris His question has -9. I think people think he's asking a bad question.
11:06
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Look at the output. What do you see between "surrogate pair" and "lol"? A stupid box :(
@FredOverflow Right, but you "can" "see" it. Perhaps you could explain what output you expected instead?
I don't know, some interesting symbol.
@FredOverflow lol I thought that was the character and the problem was with ??
Or are we to divine that from a screenshot that doesn't show that thing, lol
@FredOverflow This symbol is quite interesting.
@AndyProwl No, that was expected. It's a Java quiz.
11:07
Yeah, I figured
See, you asked this very badly.
reverse reverses the code points
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Now I know how noobs feel.
Still how do you know that's not the intended character?
Because it's just a stupid box with the code point written inside it.
11:07
@Cinch Yeah but imo your answer is just completely off key. Why are you talking about concepts of all things? And lambdas? Why should the guy asking the question care?
not very useful
I'm not sure I understand
@Pris Because he's basically looking that things that appear to be beyond him with no direction, so I'm basically trying to say, "do more stuff until those features begin to become your solutions" in a constructive way
I mean, that box with zeros and ones... can't that be the character?
So you wouldn't be surprised to see a box that says "000040" instead of @ either? ;)
11:09
Have you tried some other code units?
Do they all get rendered like that?
Ah, I see
@Cinch It's a very giant answer that sums up as "read a book".
"Do more stuff"? What kind of answer is that? Just tell him "That's the syntax for templates. That's the syntax for references. Those are C++ language features. Pick up a good book to learn more, here are some wiki links" ez pz lmn sqzy
and that's not really an answer, it's a comment.
11:10
Oh god
@Pris Other people had that covered already so there was no point.
whilst I agree that he's clearly trying to go way above his head (very much like you) you're not really getting to the point and the point you're trying to get at isn't even an answer.
@Puppy Hm, okay.
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Why can't Fred see the funny char? loungecpp.net/the-law/newbie-hints [c++] [c++11] [c++14] [c++-faq]
You do have a point there.
11:11
I know.
@khajvah yes
> Once again, an extension to the flexibility of templates has been proposed in the form of concepts, which aim to allow the program to define archtypes of classes or data types.
@Cinch @Cinch I know your answer was just an excuse to talk about concepts because you recently read about them, no need to carry on this charade :p
The guy has no idea what that syntax even is
Stop sounding like a lecturer please
Please please
@Pris I can remove it since it's not relevant.
11:13
Like most of the rest
@AndyProwl I think I'll just delete the answer.
@Cinch Or write a normal one
Yeah, don't remove when you can improve!
Just don't sound like a lecturer wannabe
You've read about an unrelated feature ten minutes ago and now you're lecturing about concepts for a guy who has no idea what a template is
@AndyProwl I really try to understand what C++ is.
11:16
@Cinch Are you out of your mind? ;)
@Cinch Second best PL (after Java)
lol
@Cinch I believe you. I think you're a good guy, but you seem to be driven by a compulsive need to teach, it's as if teaching got you aroused or something - even if you don't know the stuff yourself yet. That's disturbing
Be a student now
and pretty negative for everybody unlucky enough to be your impromptu students
11:18
@FredOverflow ;p
@Cinch Just add the paragraph I suggested!
@LightnessRacesinOrbit My answer was already downvoted and I kind of need to do more HW
@AndyProwl I don't get why you and Puppy are so mean to Cinch, accusing him of not knowing anything. Sure he's not a top level expert but he seems to generally "get it"...
it was totally not me who downvoted your answer
@Cinch Well the horrid bold was still there and there were still words missing from it due to lack of code formatting.
@AndyProwl Oh yeah baby, tell me all about static type safety!
11:19
Easy to fix
Mercious's final paragraph succinctly addresses your point though, I think.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I think his does the entire thing better.
anyone else get an email about static analysis?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I'm sorry to sound mean, I really do, and as I mentioned, I believe he's a good guy, but I feel it's necessary in this case. I've been trying to convince him for over two months not to sound like a lecturer when he's just moving his first steps.
To no avail
@AndyProwl Um... first steps?
Am I still there?
@Cinch Yes, first steps
11:22
@AndyProwl I've not seen many problems in his "lecturing" material. Your opinion of which numbered steps he's on is irrelevant, and it's somewhat arrogant to blast him over that opinion. If you have concrete issues with the advice he's dishing out, let's hear them (did you give even a single piece of feedback about his answer, after he explicitly asked for feedback? No). But at the moment it sounds like a snobbish vendetta. IMO
More Puppy than you
@LightnessRacesinOrbit In this instance, I've stated the concrete issue above. The question was "what the hell is this syntax?" (templates). The answer was an attempted lecture on the history and design of C++
There also have been several previous instances
@AndyProwl Agreed.
> It's from the Boost C++ libraries, a beautiful set of utility libraries
Woah, wait, beautiful? Lets not get carried away here
5
@Pris That was from his original answer in one of the later paragraphs.
I just moved it up
I think the answer is pretty good now actually... except for the bold and the beautiful
11:26
@Pris It's actually my personal formatting style because I hate WOT
what's the Wheel of Time series got to do with this?
WOT the fuck
Who in their right mind hates going wide open throttle? Pedal to the metal baby
WOT = Wall of Text
I read the first few books of wheel of time, then I got bored with it
good books are hard to come by nowadays
11:28
@AndyProwl You missed the point entirely. That's your problem, not Cinch's, but you did not consider that possibility before launching into a tirade on him and basically calling him unknowledgeable and to stop teaching people. :(
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I actually agree with him lol :) No need to defend too hard there
@AndyProwl Consider the question as an XY problem and it becomes clearer.
I just read a sci fi book called Tau Zero... it was pretty good from a science-y point of view. Kinda boring from a character development standpoint tho
@Pris Read Foundation?
11:30
@Pris Not as boring as my life though, I hope.
@Cinch Never heard of it. Who is it by?
@Pris Issac Asimov.
What the hell does "absolute % changes" mean?
I've never read an Asimov book ... I think I read one of his short stories though
@Pris According to Wikipedia he was on the same level as Arther C. Clarke.
"Great Three" sci-fi writers or something.
Isaac Asimov (/ˈaɪzɨk ˈæzɨmɒv/; born Isaak Yudovich Ozimov; circa January 2, 1920 – April 6, 1992) was an American author and professor of biochemistry at Boston University, best known for his works of science fiction and for his popular science books. Asimov was prolific and wrote or edited more than 500 books and an estimated 90,000 letters and postcards. His books have been published in 9 of the 10 major categories of the Dewey Decimal Classification. Asimov is widely considered a master of hard science fiction and, along with Robert A. Heinlein and Arthur C. Clarke, he was considered one of...
Also Dune is a classic.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I understand it sounds too harsh if you haven't followed the whole story, and you might be right that I'm being too harsh anyway, but I still believe I'm giving him the right advice.
The short story I read was about this computer that evolved along with humanity. I can't remember hte name of the damned computer... it was somehting silly like CALCULON
Multivac
@AndyProwl Wait I have a story?
What.
Yeah, "The Last Question"... pretty great
11:34
@Pris I read that for like the first time lol because of @StephenLin
Tau Zero is tangentially related actually, it deals with the death and rebirth of the universe
@Pris I see...
I'm into more abstract, psyche, vivid stuff.
i.e. Inception or Dune.
If I ever make a game with a computer in it, I'm going to have it spit out
> There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer
I wish OS installers would stop fucking up my EFI NVRAM.
11:37
@Cinch I've heard Dune was really world-buildy like LoTR. I don't like books that are hyper descriptive
@Pris No, it's definitely not as thick as LoTR.
Inception, the action blockbuster, is very abstract indeed.
It's like Kingdom Hearts.
@Cinch Yes, you do. The transcript shows it. Don't take it as an attack, please, it's not. I'm trying to help you, even if it sounds harsh. And I'm trying to help those newbies who would be willing to learn from you just because of your attitude.
@AndyProwl No, I love you! :)
11:38
lol
My favorite books are ones that have a bit of a mind fuck element to them... don't really know a less vulgar term for that is
Honestly I'm glad I get criticized!
@Pris mind-crushing
ok fuck it, why don't we just paint them white with empire rondels on them it'll make it more apparent:
@Pris mind-fucking is pretty good and descriptive word actually
Speaking of rain water, it's so sad ... currently rain water is used for flushing the toilets. But there is a tree above the house, so rain water in the toilet is more yellowish & dirty than urine after the rains :'(
11:39
@Mgetz I sense... anti-militarism in the air...
It's good that you're glad, and just to be clear it's your right not to be glad and to be pissed instead, but you should still appreciate and take advantage of criticism, because it's the most valuable thing you can get
No wonder toilets blush.
@AndyProwl Agreed. It's the maker of masters.
@Cinch it's mostly that it looks a LOT like a storm trooper helmet
@Mgetz What is that helmet even for?
11:40
I kind of have to bleach the water in the water tank every 2 weeks on average to make it look like tap water
@Mgetz Honestly IDC lol. The military is a part of the US right now and it does good and bad and the world is the way it is.
Looks more like a master chief helmet to me
@Cinch I'm telling you because I got my fair share of well-deserved "You suck"s
And I'm thankful for those
Even though they upset me at the time
@AndyProwl I'm pretty immune since it's over the Internet lol. Plus you guys are so funny.
11:41
@AndyProwl I have followed the whole story. You guys have been doing this since day one. Your behaviour towards him is the whole story!
> I was fortunate to find a mentor in composers Klaus Badelt and Hans Zimmer. Basically I ended up working for them and that's where I got my experience in writing for film & TV.
that explains things
@AndyProwl you suck :p
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Don't forget Bartek. Bartek is in everyone's story.
Hi @BartekBanachewicz
@jalf grrr
:P
user1804599
11:43
@AndyProwl :D
The F35 helmet looks straight up alien
@Pris I see you found the TIE fighter helmet
The new star wars better have some kick ass space fight sequences
did you guys see that star wars animation some dude released?
It was all anime style
user1804599
11:45
It better not be this.
@райтфолд Ya know I still don't get what mathematicians actually do.
Like how do you research math?
@Cinch How do you research physics?
@khajvah Duh you do more research into problems like the Higgs boson or try to break the Standard Model.
They're pretty well-known in the higher-up community.
I'm just too dumb to know what mathematicians do.
11:50
And what does that thing you said mean?
I am sure they have those kind of weird named problems too
Sorry what?
The Higgs boson?
Buzzwords is not research.
Also, math is used in every field, so research in math can mean research in physics, medicine, computer science, etc ...
@khajvah I'm talking about pure math
...whatever that means.
11:51
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I'm simply trying to change this mindset.
@Cinch Cryptography for example, if you are talking about pure math
How do you "do more research into problems like the Higgs boson"?
@R.MartinhoFernandes You organize an experiment to verify it's possible existence and then do it.
I actually wish I studied maths instead of computer science.
No, you don't.
11:53
I don't like formal math.
Too formal and esoteric for the masses as it is.
Or you do, but you forget to explain what "organize an experiment" means.
Hint: it's done with formal math.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah idk how the heck they create all these models but it's probably based on the same "find a problem, find the solution that creates more questions" model.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Pure math and physics are separated, from what I hear.
Pure making it mutually exclusive.
@Cinch Group theory is pure math and is used in physics.
A moment ago you didn't even know what "pure math" meant.
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, I've tried to look at it before.
I just couldn't figure out why it was useful so I passed it by.
11:56
@AndyProwl That's fine. I see no evidence of it in the answer he posted today, though. This is almost an ad hominem, actually: "your answer is shit and you should stop posting answers, because you have previously indicated a desire to skip the learning process", rather than "because the answers routinely show evidence that you skipped the learning process" (and, "one more", personally I don't think that they do, in the main)
:)
If you define "pure math" as "whatever bits of math that have no use" (if any), then yes, it has no use.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I did see evidence of that: he read about concepts 15 minutes earlier - you can find it in the transcript - and immediately rushed into explaining their role in the context of C++'s history/design in superbold font, when the OP was simply asking "what's this odd syntax?" - I don't buy the XY argument, but that may just be me. This is why I reacted.
Also, I've been supporting him in his learning process when I thought he was tackling it the right way.
This said, I'll try to be less harsh in the future
@AndyProwl True that. My turn-around for learning to talking about it is too fast lol
12:03
@BartekBanachewicz ?
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
@R.MartinhoFernandes It starts off reading somewhat sane (if you don't know that Chemtrails is apparently some nut conspiracy instead of an actual thing) and then just gets more clearly insane as you go on.
Guys, is kernel/user level just a kernel thing or is it actually implemented in the CPU?
12:09
That's what makes it so funny.
> Their purpose may be to depopulate the skies so that pigeons can reign
@khajvah the CPU?!
it's an OS thing bub
CPU cares about numbers only
shush
don't start
Don't start what? You're wrong.
don't start that
so kernelspace/userspace is a CPU-defined concept, is it?
12:11
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I thought the same too but In my book, there is a line: "The 80 x 86 microprocessors have for different states (as in kernel/user level)"
Yes, CPUs make that distinction. It would be really painful to implement without hardware support.
but I don't really get it, I mean, different kernels have different understandings about user/kernel mode.
not really.
@khajvah Yes, it has CPU level support on most sane architectures.
The CPU provides you the facilities to have two kinds of code: privileged code that can do virtually anything, and non-privileged code that is sandboxed.
@khajvah the CPU can't implement all of the logic but it provides the utilities to make it work safely
Morning
@Jefffrey Wrong again, arsehole!
i386 derived hardware has IIRC 4 rings, but in modern systems only ring 0 and 1 (?, or 3?) is used. Ring 0 is the kernel, and the other one is everything else.
12:15
0 and 3.
@R.MartinhoFernandes So what are the standards for the "sandbox"? What kind of instructions are considered privileged?
Depends on the CPU.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I am guessing, anything about hardware interaction ?
Being in my presence is considered privileged.
12:16
@khajvah IO ports access is priviledged. Some registers that allow changing CPU modes are bared from being accessed by unpriviledged (or at least for writing).
Ok, thank you guys, I will just read on.
@Jefffrey That....looks a bit like poop.
Usually instructions that change CPU modes or do any kind of administrative work like messing with the MMU or other such components.
What is it with you guys and poop?
12:18
Not everything that is brownish is poop. Jesus Christ.
@Jefffrey Everything looks like poop when your life is in a gutter.
@wilx But a tasty one.
@khajvah A little bit, yes. :)
In computer science, hierarchical protection domains, often called protection rings, are mechanisms to protect data and functionality from faults (by improving fault tolerance) and malicious behaviour (by providing computer security). This approach is diametrically opposite to that of capability-based security. Computer operating systems provide different levels of access to resources. A protection ring is one of two or more hierarchical levels or layers of privilege within the architecture of a computer system. This is generally hardware-enforced by some CPU architectures that provide different...
Usually there's a mechanism for user code to switch to privileged mode but it always involves jumping to kernel code.
12:20
@Mgetz Great, thank you
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, I think you can setup a gate on x86 that does not involve a detour through kernel mode. Or am I wrong?
> What is a kernel and how do I eat it?
@khajvah to make it more complicated there is actually System Management Mode (SMM) and a virtualization ring (-1)
I guess, I have a long road to pass before kernel development. GREAT
@khajvah not really. Just find a simpiler CPU or support less complicated things
or do what I do and read The OS Dev wiki
12:24
Let everything run privileged.
@R.MartinhoFernandes very valid to do in a virtualized environment
@Cinch Erm. The main site works fine for this. After all, Vlad gets his answers reviewed without him ever posting them to the lounge.
So, if you have a question after you answered a question, ask it for what it is: a question.
you don't need a user mode when you're already virtualized
Peer review has been organized by the StackExchange designers
@Mgetz I am reading about linux kernel for now. If I understand that, I will be able to tackle actual development.
2
12:25
Poe's law runs rampant on this website harddawn.com/…
Now you look like idiots.
Just one
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hahaha. I'm firmly [<- see what I did there? ] with parody
12:28
It doesn't get more cocky than that, really
What if they added an actual cock to it?
That would hardly (<--) ruin (<-- heh) my delicate puns
greetings fellaz
hello
who are you and what do you want
12:35
@LightnessRacesinOrbit was this because of the American word "fellaz"?
user1804599
Is SOA any good?
@райтфолд Got bored after the 6th season. But overall it is a very nice show.
user1804599
12:52
I should try the actor model.
user1804599
Actually, I need some way to prevent people from creating dependencies between modules that I don't want them to make.
user1804599
But I have no idea how to do that; import in Python is unrestricted.
great you write up a nice answer, then the OP sizes on a comment that has nothing to do with the question they asked and:
@MarcGlisse: really nice - this is what I was looking for. Mind writing an answer so that I can accept it? — Vittorio Romeo 1 min ago
user1804599
Otherwise you end up with temporary-my-ass quick fixes that create hard dependencies that shouldn't be there.
@LucDanton that's interesting - but only in the sense that what I would use Void for in, say, Haskell, I have a better alternative for in C++ already - I suspect because I can explicitly express control flow in ways that most functional languages can't? can you think of a use case?
12:58
@sehe ...

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