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09:02
@Cinch make your own file format
That moment you write rightshit instead of rightshift in the docs :D
@khajvah Yes, but the problem is when the file format formatting changes due to changes to the data structure...
This can also be a problem when you want to distribute loading for large files...
template <typename T>
using ptr = T*;
#lel
@ParkYoung-Bae wtf is this and why is it alive
bill it
An obvious non-owning pointer.
09:11
@Rapptz Hi!
Hi.
@chris Yes, that's allowed, but it's syntactic sugar for a function template (so no run-time polymorphism on the Drawables)
I've spent the last hour researching JSON vs. XML
@Rapptz Always wondered why. I should ask on the user group
Idea: Binary formatting.
09:13
@AndyProwl Could probably do some library solution in C++14.
@Cinch JSON.
The problem is what if I need to change the structure of the data that comes out of a JSON file?
JSON is often used for parsing but I'm thinking of an extensible tag system for data.
guys
@chris I had to stop working on that due to lack of time. I'm still thinking of it though. Will have to get my hands dirty with Clang sooner or later
have you played my game yet
you're still on about this? :v
09:15
What's the problem? I don't get it.
@Mr.kbok I did
@Rapptz Well is JSON well-formed to deal with dynamic formatting?
It's nice
I like the ASCII art
@Mr.kbok what game?
What dynamic formatting
09:15
@ParkYoung-Bae Obvious improvement over the C declaration syntax.
@AndyProwl what's so funny about my game over screen? :(
@Rapptz i.e. say I have a structure for stats for a single character within a game.
@melak47 enter to exit :P
oh. teehee.
I have stuff like: HEALTH, MANA, EXP, SHIELD, STRENGTH, INTELLIGENCE, LUCK, etc etc etc.
But say I implement a few new systems with RAGE, HEAT, STATIC, COLD, CURSE, POISON, etc.
and then I want to store that on character or something.
Maybe I want to create a static stat system that changes combat based on what you've been exposed to, a la radiation or something.
So then, how to go about organizing the data and loading and parsing it?
If I create a static data structure, every time I want to add something new:
I have to change the structure.
Pretend they're like an array--it's bad to change it if it's literally parsed and stored as-is.
09:18
Every JSON object can have a different structure
So it's either throw away the parser or add on at the end.
@Rapptz Even if that's the case, I don't see why forbidding it at a language level. It should be equivalent auto ret = foo(); static_assert(Concept<decltype(ret)>), give or take. Unless I'm missing something
@bluefog The point is to extend the current structure.
@AndyProwl Thanks!
I mean, I wanted to design an extensible, generic system that make adding on and removing subsystems and their interactions easy.
09:18
Anyways there's no competition guys
Falling Fellow wins it all
@Cinch You can extend the current structure and just ignore the values you're not using.
@AndyProwl Yep.
@Rapptz But say I now have 100 variables.
And I only use like 20.
Then your JSON has issues
09:19
Even if you add new attributes, the older data can be parsed with the same parser
All right let's ask this
@Rapptz But if the system has to change, the design was bad from the beginning.
People cannot foresee design issues after they do them because THEY ALREADY DID THEM.
You're the one who came up with the design m8
Second of all, flexibility with mechanics and interactions is often important for people who want to think outside of the box.
This can also be true for cross-system integration.
So I was thinking of an opt-in, opt-out system for mechanics.
i.e. If I'm using a sword, opt-into the combo mechanic.
If I'm using the club/bezerker weapon, opt-into the rage mechanic.
09:21
If I have a special equip, opt-into both and special mechanics that combine both.
I suppose both can do the job quite well, honestly.
Or you know, if I wanted to have a chemistry mechanic I'd have to keep track of maybe 20 or so unique elements to get a good feel of that sort of thing.
Like maybe I want to make interactions with armor be related to their literal chemical composition tags or something.
And then the twist is that it's all in the same game and would make sense... simply by making existing subsystems interact with the new ones.
Yet if I were to take away the system, the game would still be fine.
@Rapptz Yeah I feel that JSON is probably good for this...
Is there any reason to do one or the other, in your opinion?
Your pick bub.
> bub
inbin4
@Rapptz Sorry I had to.
@Cinch Or it just models an evolving world.
@Mr.kbok Crashed after the orcs?
Also it still gets input even if I'm out of the window and crashes if the buffer overflows I think
Let's see what they say
@Puppy Hello.
Yeah it does model an evolving world...
But the thing is that most things are evolving for large multiplayer games.
@Cinch You have to pick the health vial
PSA: Guys, after killing the orcs you have to pick the health vial. The game starts afterwards.
@Mr.kbok Oh. I didn't know what it was.
Also I think "GET" is more intuitive
@Mr.kbok I also think it's a really decent game if it were spruced up.
It's fricking amazing for the time you had.
09:36
@Cinch It's not "HTTP: The Game"
lol
PICK is fine
@Mr.kbok I don't care; just a suggestion take or leave it idc
But I do like it
@Cinch It was a joke :) I didnt give it much thought
@Rapptz Damn it, I did a quick search and found nothing
Thank you
09:40
@Rapptz Good find.
Didn't know you couldn't 'return' concepts.
@Rapptz Also with Sol I decided to compile Lua 5.2.4 myself
good luck
I spent 2 hours... until I realized that I had to replace gcc with g++
@Rapptz They don't seem to value consistency much
09:43
@Rapptz I genuinely feel that this one doesn’t have a precedent unlike auto which already maps to template argument deduction.
You can do T foo(T) though.
For the feature to really matter I feel that we would need a more involved type system than what we have now.
@Rapptz Right. Deduction of the argument drives the process.
@LucDanton Why not? Isn't auto foo() a precedent?
You can do T foo(typename identity<T>::type)
:p
@Rapptz Can you call it?
09:46
yes
Really?
oh, explicitly
yep
@AndyProwl I wouldn’t say so.
@Rapptz Are we still talking about concise templates?
@LucDanton Why not? I imagine Concept foo() to be just auto foo() plus a static_assert, like for variable declarations
o.O okay...apparently, D3DCompile(...) is way more permissive when called from a debug build
09:47
@LucDanton Was being tongue in cheek.
@AndyProwl I don’t feel this version matters.
I'm gonna go now, feeling a bit sick.
@Rapptz Get better
Is the constraint supposed to be useful to the caller or the callee?
For sure to the callee, just like auto, but also to the caller I guess
After all, if Concept c = foo() is a valid extension to auto c = foo(), then I'd argue that for consistency Concept foo() should be a valid extension to auto foo(), unless there is a good reason to forbid that
09:50
So suppose I write Foo f(); and as it turns out the type I return does not fulfill Foo. Every use site is incorrect. What did we gain?
Good point. Still useful for the callee, though
What for?
Suppose I write Foo f(); and as it turns out the type I return does fulfill Foo. Now what?
Does or does not?
Then you're fine, what's the problem with that?
09:52
You made the claim is it useful. Useful for what?
if the type you return does not fulfill Foo, you get a compiler error
Andy vs Luc, fite
lol, no please
You can use another type which fulfills Foo
@AndyProwl On the use sites.
09:53
I'm not that insane to engage in a language fight with Luc
I'm debating in a "explain this to me please" way
I would be but he won't talk to me
Also new Ogame server is up.
IOW, it’s just as incorrect as if we had put the actual return type in the declaration, no?
I would actually play ogame if someone wanted to team up
@LucDanton No, I meant on the definition side
Hiiiiiii @BartekBanachewicz my favorite Bartek among all
09:54
When you compile the function, if what it returns does not model Foo, you get a compiler error
@AndyProwl rip
@AndyProwl oic
When you said 'like for variable declarations' I thought you meant exactly that.
Oooh, I just read the Wikipedia page for concepts.
It's like type-interfacing.
@LucDanton Apologies if I've been misleading
09:56
So return foo; checked just as Concept f = foo; is checked. Yeah that’s useful.
Isn't C++ already getting kind of bloated, though?
@LucDanton That's what I meant
@Cinch Certainly so, but unless you want to lend a hand on Wide, there's no solution
@Cinch So what? ALL ABOARD THE BLOAT TRAIN!
I thought blah() would be checked as if Concept f = blah();.
09:57
@Cinch There is always an option to use C, if you don't want bloat
4
@khajvah mmm yes but you rebuild too much of the wheel in C.
@khajvah Starred for shame.
crap. was wondering why my code was doing nothing in release mode...#define assert(expression) ((void)0) explains it :v
@Puppy How's Wide going?
@melak47 boo side-effects!
09:58
@AndyProwl Not really that great. I just don't really have that much time to work on it anymore.
I feel that the next systems langauge to catch on must be paired with either extreme portability or be engineered perfectly.
@Cinch Not too much but adding higher level of building blocks ends up in bloat, so
@Puppy That's understandable
@khajvah mmm true.
@khajvah Better to have features and bloat than no features at all.
10:00
Marmalade was the only non-work programming-related thing I've done in the last few months
@Puppy mostly, yes
But I believe every programmer should use something minimalistic like C to understand how everything works.
@Puppy Welp at least C++ will become the Swiss knife...
Wait that's more Python's gig... uh.....
Yeah what does C++ want to be?
@khajvah Why not asm instead?
@khajvah Well, you're wrong.
@Puppy Why>
10:02
because programmers don't need to understand how everything works.
@milleniumbug You know, I feel that something like Notch's 0x10c really has good potential in both entertainment and education.
@Puppy Unless you're one of the programmers that do, like systems engineers.
@Puppy Some do need to know (dont take my everything that extreme), other still can get on with being a java kid
they don't need to understand how everything works either
@LucDanton I don't use assert much :(
Also Catch vs Check vs Boost.Test?
Anybody with exp?
10:05
uh, check checks a value, catch catches an exception IIRC?
I think he's talking about frameworks
I don't know Check but Catch is nice
@AndyProwl Yes.
At work I use GTest because it also has a mocking framework (GMock) - actually it's the other way round, GTest is part of GMock
I recently encountered it while looking in Sol so I'm interested.
10:07
@Cinch Let me give you an advise. I know, there is too much to learn and you want to learn only the best, but seriously, most often, there is not suck thing as best, and people's opinions are biased almost always, so learn all and make your own decisions. (about JSON vs XML, Catch vs Check vs Boost)
MY OPINION IS THE BEST AND UNBIASED
@ParkYoung-Bae is an exception, Cinch, listen to him
@khajvah So I'll definitely be sticking with char* and factory object-creators then
Jan 24 at 11:42, by Andy Prowl
You seem to be after some kind of wisdom that comes from years of experience and is subjective anyway, but without going through that experience
Nothing changed since Jan 24 :P
6 hours ago, by Cinch
@chris Oh, starfish boy!
10:09
@Cinch Catch is pretty popular here.
@ParkYoung-Bae awww hi my favorite blonde starcraft chick
@khajvah I don't deserve an opinion if I'm absolutely terrible.
Which I am.
@BartekBanachewicz How was the marmuled
@Cinch Not that everybody in this chat are Einsteins.
@khajvah Well I'm definitely not a professional... while we have somebody who's formerly from Intel and great hobbyists, I'm not convinced that I'm smarter than anyone.
10:13
Protip: the guy from Intel sucks just as hard as the rest
@Cinch You are still at least as capable (I hope you do have that opinion about yourself).
@khajvah Mmm no I'm not the Marmalade showed me that.
@AndyProwl You might be interested to know that in Rust the impl keyword has often been used to disambiguate between fn foo(x: &Debug) -> &Debug (which superfically resembles C++ concise syntax) and fn foo() -> impl Debug (which we just talked about).
@Cinch "formerly from Intel" -> appeal to authority.
What is that circumcise syntax and why would catholics use it
10:15
@LucDanton Interesting. Rust is still on my to-learn list
@NeilKirk That's what I used the edit comment for. Anyhoops. It's noise. — sehe 20 secs ago
Frakking hell
@Cinch If a tiny lounge game can discourage you, then yes, you are not capable person.
@Puppy Therefore ethos++
I don't know how you guys find the time to learn all this
wat
10:16
Why does this get on my nerves. I hate when people detract from question with purely pedantic comment. Never even considering the question itself.
Oh, nothing.
@ParkYoung-Bae Have you tried my game yet
@khajvah Not discourage. It shows me where I am. I am nowhere. lol idk why you're trying to prop me up or something.
@AndyProwl I don’t do much, I kinda like programming languages in general, and Rust’s design is conventional if you follow PL design.
@sehe The question is "Catch vs Check vs Boost.Test?", what is the right answer wise man?
10:17
@ParkYoung-Bae slurp
@Mr.kbok Quel jeu pourquoi m'aggresse t'on
@ParkYoung-Bae TBH I think he does nicely. He spews a lot, but he does acknowledge the question
@ParkYoung-Bae p nice. Have to publish projects still :S
@khajvah Catch. Personal opinion of course
@sehe sigh
10:18
@ParkYoung-Bae Well the marmalade obviously
@Cinch pfff I shouldn't have told you I worked at Intel. It's really not a big deal.
-7
Q: why not drop auto keyword

salsabearNow that the auto keyword was introduced in c++11, I am of the opinion that we should be able to drop specifying auto and simply initialize variables as v = 20. Since c++ is able to deduce the type of a variable on it's own, why not drop the auto keyword all together and deduce the type of a vari...

@LucDanton Maybe, still you seem to be knowing more than I imagine myself being able to read, at least time-wise (probably also brain-wise)
@ParkYoung-Bae I suppose that's what you meant? That's what you get for just adding a non-descript plink :)
10:18
I've met both brilliant and mediocre people there
@FredOverflow NO.
@sehe That is the point I am making that all you are gonna hear are personal opinions, which give you nothing. My answer was better: "use both and decide youself"
the company is big enough to cover a very wide spectrum of both brilliance and mediocrity
that's all
@Mr.kbok I'll try after work today, promise!
@BartekBanachewicz Again: ethos++ b/c appeal to authority
10:19
@khajvah Gee. I wasn't aware you were making a point
But, happy to oblige
@BartekBanachewicz I've met both mediocre and people here
@sehe I was quoting Cinch's question. You talke against me explaining him that he should learn himself
very talke
much doge
shit I'm supposed to work bye
6
10:20
@khajvah I did no such thing. I responded to your question :)
4 mins ago, by sehe
Why does this get on my nerves. I hate when people detract from question with purely pedantic comment. Never even considering the question itself.
@khajvah god fuck no.
Hey, the second so was meant to be upper case!
@BartekBanachewicz quick make it a single message. Much !haiku
10:21
@FredOverflow so-so
@FredOverflow It wasn't meant to be
@BartekBanachewicz 3 lines is a must
@BartekBanachewicz and where in the spectrum did you fall?
10:22
@BartekBanachewicz ICBW
@Pris ultraviolent
@AndyProwl Most of the foundations to what I know I learned in school. Not having to learn the fundamentals on my own has been a big help.
Heresy!
> traditional haiku masters were not always constrained by the 5-7-5 pattern.
I'm a traditional haiku master, by that angle
@sehe the programming skill spectrum of infraretarded to ultraviolent
10:23
> Traditional haiku consist of 17 on (also known as morae), in three phrases of 5, 7 and 5 on respectively
that was what I was looking for
@Pris nice
I suppose "morae" refers to characters/phonetic syllables.
time for a break
K.K
K.K
@sehe
looking at your answer to my question right now.
whoa. There are so many things for me to absorb. I will get back to you. and thanks a ton for taking out the time to reply back>
-4
Q: What do these C++ statements mean?

YumYumYumIn C++ following terms when used i get very confused and always it made me to go away from C++ and sit back to C, Java, Python only. Can anyone explain me why you use it? for example i am learning this project by reading over and over: https://github.com/RSATom/WebChimera/blob/master/src/Chime...

> In C++ following terms when used i get very confused and always it made me to go away from C++ and sit back to C, Java, Python only.
10:29
Man QtCreator has some good autocomplete. I'd take a screenshot but the autocomplete pop up goes away when I try
Crawl back to mama!
        static_cast<ComponentList<T>*>(
                    m_list_cmlists[Component<T>::Type::index].get())->// this autocompletes
K.K
K.K
@sehe Kindly bear with me if I ask many questions on that answer of yours. I am new to STL boost and JSON.
@FredOverflow Crawl back to C and drown :P
@K.K You're welcome. I did the refactorings because I might like to write sqlite code myself once. And I will not put up with repetitive error handling, exception unsafety etc.
10:30
Actually that isn't so impressive, it probably just looks at the static_cast and thats it
@K.K That's ok. Probably. If it gets out of hand we can get our own room (or I'll just point at an online resource, more likely)
Xeo
Xeo
@Pris At the point of the ->, you got a ComponentList<T>, so it's not that big a deal
I always thought an equally appropriate name for 'callback functions' would be 'crawlback functions'
K.K
K.K
@sehe: sure. I truly truly appreciate your help
@Xeo lol
Xeo ruins the magic
10:32
Or Java generics, which are like templates but shit. — Puppy 2 mins ago
lol
@Jefffrey I just posted the link because someone requested it, it's not my game, it's copy's.
PS. the main elements I addressed are: exception safety and DRY using RAII; command/query separation; const-correctness; proper naming; (modularity of code) — sehe 11 secs ago
I sympathize with that guy though. Templates are like... the most difficult thing I've ever come across when programming. The 'basic' template syntax is okay after a little while, but the TMP stuff is just ... otherworldly
it's only otherworldly because the language's support sucks
conceptually most of the time it's pretty simple
it's just implemented in crazy ways due to lack of real support
some of the actually-supported stuff is very simple.
10:35
Yeah, its like TMP was an 'emergent' thing. I don't know why they couldn't have just designed a simple separate internal meta programming language to just do pure compile time stuff that they twist up templates to do
@Pris really?
Also why is bool in concept bool ... even required to appear, if one can't use anything else?
I hate it when I don't have test cases
@Puppy Actually, CLR generics are like templates but shit. And Java generics are like CLR generics but even shittier — sehe 6 secs ago
Doesn't lisp have some fancy way of doing compile time meta stuff in normal lisp
K.K
K.K
10:37
@Pris I am that guy :-(.....and you are very right. At first when I started working on templates I loved it. Now as I am digging deeper (because of my job). I see that the beauty of template is getting lost. and it is becoming alien to me.
@khajvah Solution: write test cases
> I see that the beauty of template is getting lost
@K.K So poetic. I doubt I read that as you intended, but still
Getting lost is the beauty of learning
> Yes. And of course we knew that and has mentioned it repeatedly. We did not want to introduce yet another syntactic pattern. Over the years, the fact that constructors, destructors, and conversion operators have separate carefully minimized syntaxes have cause unanticipated specification problems and user confusion. We don't want to repeat that mistake by minimizing the concept notation (in the obvious ways). Concepts are functions (predicates), so let them look like functions.
Meh
K.K
K.K
@sehe I hope...I will earn some knowledge on the way.:)
Al right I will take a leave i need to dig into@sehe 's answer. it was lovely talking with all of you. bye
lol Bjarne sounding like @райтфолд
10:41
@FredOverflow It's boring
@LucDanton This seems related to our vim challenge the other day, just found another approach that kinda works for dealing with boundary elements in commasep lists:
    statement(handle&& h, database& db) : _stmt(std::move(h)), _db(db) { }
f:<Space> to get the cursor into position, then using d%%p``x%p flips of member initialization order
Similarly d%pv``d%p whichever feels more natural
hey ladies
@AndyProwl heh
10:58
Hey I feel I should post this here so that somebody could look over this:
0
A: What do these C++ statements mean?

CinchThe problem is that you're looking at things that are not your problems yet. C++ is a very, very large language. It has many different features and due to its recent developments, is quickly becoming larger. Things like multithreading and smart pointers have been a part of the C++ programming c...

Can someone edit or proofread my answer for correctness?
@AndyProwl yeah but @райтфолд's ideas are happy exclamations, thats just bjarne getting upset

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