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11:00
i wonder if he's a good teacher
I've seen some assignments from Stanford that people have asked for help with, and it's setColourGlobal("RED"); shit.
@Puppy LOL
What I want to develop is a Beginner's Pitfall guide
i suppose
@Puppy there's still a few universities teaching Haskell though
@Cinch you'd need to be an experienced programmer before attempting that anyway vOv
@BartekBanachewicz Well I know that I had a freak out the first time I saw "this->"
I didn't know about either "this" and "->"
that's ultimately very basic
11:01
yes, but it's really not
at least to beginners
no, it really is.
@Cinch That's not a pitfall, it's a lack of basic understanding.
Of course, but that's common
wow
11:02
if you think that C++ is hard because you might encounter this-> in the code, you know nothing, Jon Snow
2
That was a long time ago
(Not that long)
In a galaxy far far away
But still, I insist that other people encounter the same problem yearly
you know what's the ultimate guide of protection against unrecognizable language structures?
A fucking book.
Of course, it's true for students who have never programmed before
11:03
A 400-page book is not the best way either if you're flipping constantly
there's no amount of guides that will save you from learning
@BartekBanachewicz YESSSS! Thank you sir...
But how about this:
@Cinch If you want to learn something, that's a must go
@Cinch that's what indices are for. and computers.
11:04
Learning can be made substantially easier than the way the system is now
Also you're supposed to read the whole thing at least 10 times anyway
@Cinch Compared to other problems like new and delete, this-> is seriously triviall.
exactly
@Cinch and that certainly won't be done via a way of tutorials that butcher good books
@Cinch Yes, but the flip-rate will diminish with time as you, well, learn stuff.
11:04
I think that information compression and slicing is the best way to improve learning
also there's cppreference
@Cinch you can only compress so much
Or can you?
If better materials were put out
you have to realize you won't make C++ a language that's smaller or less complicated
Of course not
@Cinch no, it's not about the materials. Have you read the C++ standard?
11:05
dont do it, its a trick
Somewhat, but much of it is not very clear if you don't even know how a programming language works...
that is a huge book. And ultimately, if you want to learn C++, you have to understand what's in there.
I mean I can go to another programming language and C++ and C are just different horses
@Cinch so we're back to the beginning which is actually learning things
that just says that you know neither very well.
11:06
Hello everyone ! I have a problem and hopefully some of you know how to solve it. I have a bunch of independent task some are large, some are small can't know before doing them and I have a thread pool. I wanted to know if it is possible to keep the threads busy (I am quite new to threads).
That is very true
I thought about launching all the thread and joining them afterwards but then the slowest thread would give the pace. I am sure this is a classic problem but google didnt help in my case. Thanks for your help !
C++ is a completely different beast to every other language out there.
But many things are easier to learn than programming for some reason
known fact.
11:06
and it's not because programming might just be harder
not just*
user1804599
@Cinch neither are horses.
not only*
@Puppy except of all the features borrowed from other languages.
Which is why I want to ask:
Do you think that better tutorials and materials for C++ could revive interest and make better programmers?
To flatten the learning curve
@BartekBanachewicz They still combine in some very strange ways. Not to mention adding in some C++-only fun like rvalue refs.
user1804599
11:07
No.
no.
Why?
@Cinch It would probably result in bloodshed.
because
C++ doesn't need better teaching, it needs replacing.
user1804599
11:08
Learn Perl 6 instead.
because we already have good books. People are just too dumb and C++ is too complicated to learn C++ en masse
The way people learn has definitely changed
so what?
meh, you're dreaming a strange dream
It's a necessary one if we want to solve the "dumbness" problem of society
Well, I'm dreaming of garlic mushrooms.
11:09
I mean, do you appreciate having a pop culture and society that assumes people are not educated?
that's solved by removing idiots from gene pool, not by better C++ tutorials
glfw seems like such a nice library wish such good documentation
That's going to Hitler methods--not a good idea
why couldnt it work on android/ios :[
Eugenics was tried, results in WW2
11:09
@Pris I use it and it's OK.
@Cinch That is because of educational problems; but they arise a decade or two before most people encounted C++.
@Pris because they already provide all of the necessary APIs?
'OK': what do you think it lacks
nothing in particular actually
@Puppy I agree. I intend to solve this or try to
and I can start anywhere I like
11:10
@Pris but I don't use the C API of course
@Cinch Not necessarily. Hitler tried to remove them from the gene pool by killing them, and he also judged "idiot" purely based on what hair colour they had. If you, say, genetically engineered their children to have scientifically proven higher intelligence, that could work, if you had sufficiently advanced genetics technology anyway.
@BartekBanachewicz what do you mean by that? afaik its not supported on android or ios... you'd have to create the platform specific hooks for catching events and all
my point is that you don't need GLFW on android and iOS
@Cinch You might want to pick an area where the problem actually arises.
@Puppy Programming and engineering, together, are the big disciplines right now
11:11
@Cinch how about you test your new revolutionary method of learning C++ on yourself
and come back to us with some results
@BartekBanachewicz why wouldn't you? who the hell wants to write platform specific code for creating a GL surface, capturing input events, etc etc
@Cinch Yes, but our lack of competent programmers has little to do with actual difficulty of programming or programming tutorials.
It's not difficulty, it's form and the quality of explanation
@BartekBanachewicz IIRC, that requires time-travel?
@Pris capturing events on mobile devices is totally different from doing that on a PC. Mobile apps run under totally different constraints
11:12
it's because we educate our children in a tremendously ineffective fashion, and also because somehow we seem to smack all women into thinking they cannot program.
@Cinch Yes, but not of programming.
user1804599
Programming is fun!
it's all mathematics, science, and other subjects, going all the way back to when a child first enters school.
if you're trying to teach an 18-year-old C++, you're already too late to save that person.
I agree. Which is why I wanted to sort of compile concepts into a compressed, highly-understandable format
@Puppy AGREE
either they survived anyway, like me, or it's too late.
you need to intervene at an earlier age.
user1804599
There shouldn't be too many programmers.
11:13
@Puppy But it doesn't have to be like that. Literacy was once a "smart thing" yet it's now standard in many countries
user1804599
There should be a shortage.
user1804599
Otherwise I can't get jobs.
@Cinch Yes- because they introduced it to the children at an early age.
they did not go around teaching every adult literacy.
@Puppy But the system for teaching literacy became highly refined
@BartekBanachewicz the whole point of glfw is to abstract that away. given that glfw has support for ES, it probably works on embedded linux or whatever with X events too. Capturing input events from mobile OSs like android and ios isn't that different... certainly not as convenient as with the desktop, but not an impossibility. In fact id be surprised if glfw doesn't have support for more mobile os's in the future
11:14
A plethora of techniques were developed and now we have high literacy rates
well, there are a few people who would disagree with you.
but a big part of that refinement is the age at which they began teaching it.
@Pris you're missing the point
I could read before I ever went to school.
@BartekBanachewicz which is what
@Puppy So could I
11:15
that kind of thing is how you achieve high literacy.
@Pris that the mobile OSes work with mobile apps in a totally different way
user1804599
Stop importing illiterates.
if you're 18 and illiterate, statistically you still stay that way.
I mean, it's such a major skill that we try to intervene now, but it's still not very effective.
True.
But that didn't stop the slaves from learning, lol
so what I'm saying is
11:16
@BartekBanachewicz 'totally different way'... please elaborate. They seem pretty similar to me. SDL supports mobile OS's for example, and what it does is extremely similar to glfw for opengl support and input handling
Of course those with interest will learn
if you really want to address the problem, you need to start at like, age 4-5, not age 18.
@Pris touch input. app sleeping. notifications from shitload of external sources. registering separate activities
of course there are always the survivors like myself who are genuises despite school
11:17
@BartekBanachewicz touch input is just an event, app sleeping is just another event, you don't need to worry about notifications since thats not glfw's responsibility
@Puppy I totally agree, but how many people can successfully create an educational system that can do that? That's like the pinnacle of education--the younger they get, the harder it can (or maybe not) be
@Pris yeah, no.
well they couldn't make it work in the past
but I think that with the Internet it's worth another shot.
@BartekBanachewicz okay :)
ikr
Sigh......
11:18
and programming especially is far more accessible than even 10-15 years ago.
I remember trying to pick up DARKBASIC at about 13.
You must be old
24.
Or at least very experienced
darkbasic isn't that old
Old to me lol
11:18
DARKBASIC has been around for a long time.
nah, jk
as have most BASIC variants by now
I'm a kid, ya know, with kid ideas for kids
let's face it, that style is pretty much gone, and the only BASICs still around are just survivors from that time period.
Is BASIC still relevant?
Would I want to create something using BASIC?
11:19
no.
well it's still used somewhere
I pity poor souls that have to deal with it
every language is still used somewhere
not really.
BASIC is pretty much dead now.
COBOL is still used, right?
C is still used
BASIC was terrible to begin with
the "easy new guy language" spot has been taken by stuff like Python.
11:20
@Cinch already being phased out
@Puppy or JS those days
@Cinch They're cutting it down as fast as they can.
Yes, but even Python doesn't really truly teach people about the nitty gritty programming
of course it does.
about fucking pardon me what
It's not very close to the actual machine right?
11:22
that is utterly irrelevant.
@Cinch being close to the machine is not what programming is about
the hard things in programming have nothing to do with how to get the CPU to do what you want.
I get that
But sometimes it is necessary right?
they're all about how to model what you want and whether or not what you want is even possible and did that dude expose that API and how am I going to make this change in a compatible, easily-maintainable way.
@Cinch Not really.
@Cinch not really
11:23
it's only necessary if you're doing something which is needed to support the higher-level stuff.
like interopping with OS functions for example.
even then stuff like ctypes for Python seem to do OK.
otherwise, it just introduces errors and hard-to-maintain code for no benefit.
It can be, of course
But then you have people asking questions like, "Why doesn't C++ support this function from Python?" when the answer is because C++ doesn't have that abstraction and is giving you a closer abstraction at reality
that's a bad thing, not a good thing.
ab?
C++ typically doesn't support a Python function just because it's a library problem and has absolutely nothing to do with the languge.
like for example filesystem operations are not in C++ but you can just download Boost.Filesystem if you need them, because filesystem ops are just a library you ca write on top of any operating system.
But some languages come with more high-level features baked in right?
11:26
there's practically nothing in the Python core language that you could not do in C++ if you really wanted to.
well, I don't actually know Python that well.
Most things can be rewritten in another language but for new, novice, and intermediate programmers...
@Cinch Well... that really depends on how you define "high-level" and which features you want.
The language sort of defines how you learn based on what values the language emphesizes
it's certainly true that C++ has templates and C does not, for example.
And C has its constructs that are clearly not assembly
11:27
well
hardly any.
in fact I can't think of any off the top of my head.
@Cinch C is pretty much 1:1 assembly translation
except preprocessor features, which are clearly not assembly but also clearly not even comparable.
the language itself has no real abstractions
that's what i mean
well except the optimizer
11:28
While you can program anything in one language, a language always has values that makes programming certain things in it easier
yes, that can be true.
Python has an extensive stdlib for example.
C++ is very flexible in this manner, at least to my eyes
While Java is OOP, Lisp as functional, etc.
I generally find that C++ is the most flexible language around by a long way.
otoh it's still a pita to work with
so you pay a great price for that flexibility
C# is getting closer but still way too many random restrictions.
and I totally agree with Bartek that C++ can be an absolute pain in the ass to work with.
that's why I invented Wide.
11:30
Yeah, like .NET
I mean, we all value C++ right? There IS a reason it is still used.
user1804599
No, I don't.
multiple bad reasons and a few good ones vOv
most of that reason is backwards compatibility or maintaining existing C++ codebases.
@Puppy 'Wide'?
11:30
or the programmer being a moron.
@Pris the vaporlanguage puppy's been writing for the last few years
But do you think C++ imposes certain restrictions on programmers more or less than other languages?
@Cinch I use it becasue it's the only language I can use for my embedded stuff, except for C, which is an unacceptable mess.
@Cinch It probably imposes the fewest restrictions in total.
11:31
@Puppy And that is its value.
you can do some suuuuper funky shit in C++ if you want to.
but that can be a downside as much as an upside if you're not careful and experienced.
@Puppy Which is why C++ should be a great language for a programmer to get to know, right?
It is positioned between the past and the future
11:32
well I think that there is something great about C++ that you can't really find anywhere else.
meeeeeeh
but I can't honestly say that that means that it's the greatest shit ever or that everybody should learn it.
And its very flexible in terms of core values and paradigms
True
it's just a tool.
But it is a very important one, at least today
11:33
an exceptionally flexible one with many qualities, but it has enough downsides to make it definitely not an instant winner.
@Cinch I don't get where you're going with all that
Do you think C++ should be a primary de facto language to know?
What would you replace it with?
Haskell, duh.
user1804599
11:33
Perl 6.
It's a great tool for my embedded stuff. Windows GUI, not so much, so I don't use it.
there's no such thing as a primary defacto language.
^ this
I didn't say THE DE FACTO
I said A
you learn the language that's best for the job you need to do.
@Cinch I also said A.
11:34
of course there is; LGC
What languages would be best for conveying programming concepts to a wide audience of programmers?
Wouldn't C++ actually satisfy that quite well in comparison to another?
None/all.
> Wide audience
@Cinch not really
But it certainly holds a sense of something that needs to be mastered, right?
I mean, a lot of people can learn HTML or SQL
11:36
2 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@Cinch I don't get where you're going with all that
this is such an aimless line of questioning
you can learn programming in any language, seriously
user1804599
You have to learn many languages if you want to learn many different techniques.
Well, Hitler has already been mentioned, now SQL has entered the thread. It must be dead now.
@рытфолд But what concepts? and what languages?
11:37
well who knows, you've been rambling on those for the past hour
I am trying to gather a sense of consensus...
there is none
And that's a problem, I suppose
you've approached this discussion with a preconceived idea of the reality
it's wrong.
11:38
Wait, what idea
I'm too tired of answering all that frankly
it's getting nowhere
Last question:
(or request)
Can you explain to me how you see the programming world and landscape as it is right now? How do you see the present and future?
I think these are pointless questions that can only have useless answers
@Cinch that requires a book written to answer
You seem to be after some kind of wisdom that comes from years of experience and is subjective anyway, but without going through that experience
11:42
@Cinch Are you using the Lounge to write a paper?
Now that I think about it, I should ask that last question on Reddit...
Just learn as many languages as possible, grow your own ideas, check them with others' and (as a result) possibly change your mind, ask when you're stuck, repeat. There's no such a thing as "here's all the stuff you have to read or languages you have to learn, go through it and come back as an expert"
@AndyProwl I want to try to make things easier for people
By giving them a nice direction to start off in
how are you trying to do that?
Like a few things they should look at
11:43
1 min ago, by Andy Prowl
You seem to be after some kind of wisdom that comes from years of experience and is subjective anyway, but without going through that experience
Or what works, as seen in this code, etc.
@AndyProwl EXACTLY!
you can't give people directions if you haven't followed them yourself
That's education
education should be done by educated people
not by people who heard the directions from some random folks
@AndyProwl That would be a first.
11:44
But you aren't all random right?
Yes, we are
@MartinJames While I see what you mean, I think that's a bit exaggerated
@MartinJames highfive
sbi
sbi
Hi folks, I just had a nap. Sigh.
@Cinch "How do you see the present and future?" In which particular industry?
@πάνταῥεῖ Programming industry at large
It's too large to answer but that doesn't mean I won't try to ask
11:49
I don't believe there's a concise answer for this.
I'm not expecting a concise answer
No matter what the answer is, you should not perfect-forward it to others
@Cinch There's no such thing like a programming industry
If you wanna give others directions, and expect them to follow those directions, then (assuming those people are not dumb) you'd better be ready to provide solid evidence that those directions make sense, and meaningfully answer questions and objections. And if you haven't spent your own time trying to follow those directions, and sweat to overcome the obstacles, it's very unlikely that you will be able to convince anyone. If you want to become an educator, first be a student.
sbi
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Would you say I have learned C++? (Let's limit this to C++03, to get the obvious obstacles out of the way.) I ask because I consider the thing inaccessible for me. Yeah, in a way I understand what's in there. But certainly not through reading it myself.
@Pris Was that a Freudian slip or an intentional one? :)
@BartekBanachewicz In the same way that zero is "rather small"?
11:52
@sbi I haven't said that you have to understand what's in there solely of the means of reading it
@sbi Haskell's use in the industry is certainly non-zero
sbi
sbi
@Cinch In C++, that's what we have Meyers for: Concise rules of thumb, well explained.
it's certainly bigger than a lof of languages you might consider widely used
rofl, sbi mission sleep: failed
user1804599
lol
sbi
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz The languages I consider widely used are Java, C#, C, C++. Ruby, Python, Perl... When it comes to usage, is Haskel even in the league below them?
@chmod711telkitty I said "nap", and that I had. It seems the temperature has dropped a bit again. At least I feel like I am making more sense again. ICBWT.
11:56
@sbi Perl isn't even a language, so... Haskell's in top ~25 now.
depends on the method of course
user1804599
lol
what's more important though is that it's growing a lot
people that went from java to scala not so long ago have shown that it's possible
sbi
sbi
@matovitch What do you mean when you say "small" and "large"? The time they run? In fact, there was a talk of Hartmut Kaiser at Meeting C++ in December where he addresses this very issue in a really good keynote. You can find this online. His thesis: You will always waste CPU time by joining tasks, continuations is what you're after.
But you don't even need to go that far. Create a queue of tasks to be done, and let all the threadpool threads simply fetch the next one from this. Voilá.

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