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sbi
12:00 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I most certainly do not consider 25 languages widely used. In fact, I'll probably not even consider a dozen languages widely used. After a dozen, it's "close to the fringe" languages already.
@BartekBanachewicz You certainly came across like you meant this, though.
@BartekBanachewicz Congratulations for it not being non-existing, but merely non-relevant.
 
@sbi well, you have to take the needs into account too, though. Bulldozers aren't a majority of the traffic; does that make them not-relevant?
 
user1804599
For day-to-day traffic, pretty much.
 
sbi
So you write an absolutely vague question, and rather than downvoting and closevoting it, I attempt to answer. I start out with "Your question is vague, I believe this is what you ask. Is this right?" – and you don't even bother to even react to that, but come with a very dubious claim to ask a further question? Sorry, kid, no cookies for you, then. — sbi 40 mins ago
Deleted my answer after that.
 
user1804599
You may sometimes encounter one and you probably won't have to deal with it in any special way.
 
@sbi Yeah, I suck. That's why I don't post questions, lol
 
sbi
12:03 PM
@BartekBanachewicz You can't have a modern road without bulldozers. You can have modern computers and modern software without Haskel, though.
 
user1804599
It's a bulldozer analogy!
 
@sbi Without haskell, modern languages nowadays would be much different. And much worse, IMHO
 
user1804599
Unless you're playing Carmageddon.
 
the fact that you can write anything in Java doesn't mean that you should.
 
What language(s) do you guys use in your day-to-day programming right now (just curious)?
 
12:04 PM
we've learned it the hard way already.
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz You can not.
 
@sbi try telling that to a java advocate
hell, remember java browser applets?
And java micro?
 
Yeah, why IS java still popular?
 
@Cinch "I hear it's better to avoid templates" is in line with the attitude you showed earlier. Get rid of it :)
 
and how many billion devices they claim it runs on when it installs?
 
sbi
12:06 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Which modern languages? Any widely used ones?
See, I am not trying to diminish the academic importance of Haskel. I am disputing your claim that it has any relevance in the industry.
 
@sbi let's start with C++. C#. Scala. JavaScript
 
@AndyProwl Wait I thought that's a convention???
 
Pretty much every modern programming language borrows from Haskell
 
@AndyProwl Or should I use STL?
 
user1804599
Perl 6!
 
sbi
12:06 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I do when arguing with them. Now I am arguing with a Haskel advocate. I won't use arguments defeating Java advocates' claims for that.
 
@Cinch What is a convention?
 
Or like, it's not good to use the STL or something
 
user1804599
Hint it's spelled Haskell not Haskel.
 
I read that in a few places...
 
@sbi if haskell's academic research has impact on the industry, that itself means it has impact on the industry.
 
12:07 PM
@Cinch and what was the reason for saying "don't use the STL"?
 
user1804599
Please don't join the stupid rubby and dicsource club. :(
 
We are the people that rule the night.
 
also "templates" and "STL" (for whatever the latter means) are not the same thing
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz So what did they borrow from Haskell.
 
@sbi wait, you're asking for real now?
 
12:08 PM
Just to throw some more languages in: Erlang, Ada, Lisp ...
 
sbi
@рытфолд Thanks. I wonder why my spillchucker accepts "Haskel" then.
2 mins ago, by sbi
See, I am not trying to diminish the academic importance of Haskel. I am disputing your claim that it has any relevance in the industry.
 
@AndyProwl something something something lookup times, smaller devices (mobile), compatability, idk
is it okay to use templates?
 
spillchucker
 
is there a place where it isn't supported?
 
pretty great name for a spellchecker lib/project
 
12:09 PM
@Cinch that question makes no sense
 
sbi
@Cinch You shoot so far off the mark, you might hit your foot.
 
@AndyProwl Is there such a thing as template overuse?
 
sbi
@Pris I blame afp.
 
@Cinch everything can be overused
even water
 
@AndyProwl You know what I mean.
Like how I shouldn't do boost::any***** ptr5
 
12:10 PM
@Cinch I do. The answer stays the same
Yes they can be overused but that means nothing
Water can be overused, doesn't mean it's by definition useless (quite the contrary)
 
sbi
@AndyProwl Not chocolate, though. It can't.
 
@sbi why don't you go to the "influenced" section there and read the references
 
@sbi My girlfriend's trying to teach me this long time :P
 
sbi
@AndyProwl Point her at this.
 
LOL
 
12:12 PM
@sbi also that
@sbi but then again
 
@sbi lol. I'll consider it. Although knowing her, there is quite some risk that she'll see the picture, ignore the article, and run for some chocolate
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Because such a section doesn't exist?
 
@sbi it's on the right
 
@sbi It's on the right sidebar?
 
> Why is there is so much work on building more perfect languages and abstractions when the industry adoption already lags 25-30 years behind what you fellows are already working with?
> > Without this work, what would industry be adopting in 25 years?
 
sbi
12:14 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Ah, I see.
 
sbi
So it influenced concepts in C++11, the feature that was pulled before C++11 was finished. I'm impressed.
 
well, I certainly can't say that Haskell invented ADTs, but it kinda popularized them even more, along with other languages that have them
@sbi it's not like it's not coming back either
they just weren't able to fit it into the language at that time
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Again, I am not diminishing what Haskell means for CS. I was only disputing your claim that it is relevant in the industry. And I stand to this, albeit I admit I should have made myself clearer by saying "directly relevant".
 
@sbi I understand that the two example links of being used at Facebook and Microsoft aren't directly relevant?
probably because those companies aren't relevant in the software industry either
hell, microsoft spends money on Haskell research just for the fun of it.
 
12:17 PM
felt so weird typing this url microsoft.github.io
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Don't make me laugh. (It hurts from all the coughing.) I learned about ADTs in Pascal, which is more than 20 years older than Haskell.
 
CS has immense impact on the industry
 
@Pris ikr
 
sbi
11 mins ago, by sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Which modern languages? Any widely used ones?
 
@sbi why is that quote relevant now?
 
sbi
12:18 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Because that is the question you answered to when you pointed out those languages?
 
@sbi that was in addition to "has no industry impact" which is just blind denial
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, and Bill Gates spends most of his money on fighting Malaria now. They have enough, so why not do things they like to do?
 
uhh, bill gates foundation is a completely separate thing from microsoft
I don't understand where you're getting with this, honestly
what do you want me to say? That broken-ass languages like C are more relevant than Haskell because people write en masse in them? Bollocks, I say. The fucking toasters software they will write is puny and insignificant compared to the actual development that's being done in software research
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz So MS and fb internally use (for some value of "use" I feel too weak today to go an research about) two languages that have features which might be inspired by Haskell. And you bring this up as examples of Haskell's widespread adoption in the industry?
Ouch, that hurts! <== my way of saying "LOL" today
 
neither are millions of wordpress pages in any way significant to me despite the absurd amounts of code they produce
 
sbi
12:22 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Except that MS provided all the money for it, you mean? They swim in money. They spend it on all kinds of obscure things. Haskell might be one of the less obscure ones, sure. Still.
 
@sbi ugh, I've linked you to repositiories with one having a compiler in haskell (MS/Bond) and the other being almost entirely written in Haskell (FB/Haxl)
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz I dunno. My kids this morning would have sworn that toasters are more relevant than WP. :)
 
sure, if by software development you mean repetitive contracts that base on years of hard work of others that even made them possible to exist, then you might be fine for quite some time. For a lifetime even, perhaps, if you manage to keep up with whatever broken version of new possibilities lands in PHP 15 or Perl 10 or whatever.
 
but don't say Haskell / CS research is not relevant just because you can't or refuse to see the bigger picture
 
sbi
12:25 PM
@BartekBanachewicz So? Again: I never claimed that Haskell's significance is absolute zero. It's influenced people, tools and languages, which are influencing other people, tools, and languages, which are influencing influential people, tools, and languages.
I already admitted that. I stand to it.
However, so did, um, just about any other language more than three or four of us have ever heard of.
 
If you haven't heard of Haskell, then I have to seriously question your position as a programmer in 2015
@sbi like what, actually?
languages created for the industry hardly bring anything new to the table
Java was already late a few years when it came out
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz You are free to do so. Doing in here would be useless, though, because you cannot avoid having heard of Haskell when you visited this room for more than two times.
FWIW, though: I heard about Haskell (and the GHC) sometimes in the 90.
 
Lots of starrable nonsense here; thanks!
:D
 
@sbi it came a long way since the beginning
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Java, by my reckoning, isn't even past its infant years.
When I learned programming, C was a teenager.
 
12:29 PM
java is already dying
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz It's cold outside today.
@BartekBanachewicz It's SID then, probably.
 
Programming is changing. And it's not changing because we write more millions of code in mainstream languages. vOv
Perhaps I was born in a world when C was thriving as a great, practical, established language.
I refuse to die in one, though.
 
@BartekBanachewicz In what sense?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit it's way past the time when it was cool to know java.
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Look, it is a very impressive strawman you're hitting there. It's, however, just a strawman. I am over here.
 
12:33 PM
@BartekBanachewicz It needs the coup-de-grace.
 
@BartekBanachewicz What does that have to do with whether Java is "dying"? Since when do we define a language's longevity in the industry based solely on its "cool" factor (however on earth you quantify that)?
And if you think it's "cool" to know Haskell you're out of your mind.
 
@sbi Well, I really don't know what do you want to hear from me then. There are numerous companies over the world that create software in haskell. Will it ever become as popular as, say, C#? Probably not. But the lesser appearance doesn't mean lesser impact.
And with that, I'm out of things I wanted to say, honestly.
 
^ That is true.
 
sbi
Oh, even I agree with LiRO. It's your fault, @Bartek, you did that!
 
The key is that coolness and visibility have very little to do with influence and impact. Haskell does have plenty of the latter, Bartek is right. However, Bartek is wrong about e.g. Java dying just because the former is waning. That's sort of a contradictory argument, actually.
Cheers & hth.
 
12:36 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I actually think you're right and I'm wrong after I read that.
As in, the Java dying might've been thrown out too hastily
 
java is dying?
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz That is because you never said anything that countered my argument that Haskell is not in relevantly wide use. You have beaten your hobby horse by repeating again and again that Haskell is not totally irrelevant, and does not have zero impact, and is, in fact, a great language. However, nobody has disputed that. That's why you don't know what to say anymore: all your phrases are used up, even though you haven't even addressed the issue at hand.
 
seriously though, how could a 52 year old be so aggressive? why couldn't alf be as calm as jerry or as chill as martin
 
sbi
I dunno, Which 52yo are you talking about?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit that means a lot to people starting in the industry
 
@sbi "relevantly wide" is the key point here.
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Glad to see that you, almost an hour later, start to see the key point of the discussion we're having.
 
for example, was the first electric car to get on the road "in relevantly wide use"?
 
sbi
Certainly not.
 
12:44 PM
ah, I'm seeing the pattern here
@sbi so when did electric cars become "relevant" in your opinion? Or are they still irrelevant?
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz That's irrelevant to my argument.
 
The first electric cars were produced in the 1880s. About the same time as C compilers and console interfaces.
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz My argument is: When you liked to drive electric cars back then, you couldn't find one. Or if you could, you couldn't afford it. Just like now you cannot find Haskell jobs.
@MartinJames Ouch!
 
@sbi I'd say it's quite possible if you're good enough
 
@BartekBanachewicz :)
 
12:48 PM
I see approx. at least one new offer each week on twatter
 
@BartekBanachewicz I concur
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Just like it was possible to haven an electric car back then: if you <whataver, probably rich>.
 
The best spots in the local shopping centre are reserved for electric cars, yet according to the wiki, there are only 1909 electric cars registered in Australia between 2010 - 2014
 
sbi
See, what I am saying does not mean that Haskell is a piece of totally irrelevant shit. Or that it might not be considered groundbreaking (one day). It just means that: In the industry, Haskell is currently irrelevant.
 
12:49 PM
let's call it pioneering :D wait doesn't work in english
 
no wonder the best spots are always empty >_<
 
So are you guys arguing over how influential Haskell is or how nice Haskell is as a programming language?
 
I wanna drive a solar-electric car
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Works well enough for me. (And, again, since you seem to be slower than even me today: I never disputed that.)
 
& exchange solar charged batteries at petrol stations
 
sbi
12:52 PM
@Cinch I was disputing the former, which he tried to counter by claiming the latter. Hilarities ensued.
 
Three fields near to us are sprouting south-facing metalwork. Soon, the village will have plenty of power but no food.
 
sbi
What the fuck is "south-facing metalwork"? Sounds very dubious to me.
 
Though, to be fair, the fields were not awesomely productive agriculturally. They were flooded more often than not.
@sbi Solar panel mountings.
 
sbi
@MartinJames Ah, I see. I hadn't heard that term for it.
 
ok, time to derail the topic
4
Q: Does this Tic-Tac-Toe game follow abstraction and encapsulation?

overexchangeThis below program will be further enhanced for TicTacToe game with Human and Computer as players. Currently this program is written for choosing best move for a given grid position. package project2.tictactoe; enum TicTacToe{ X, O, NULL; @Override public String toString(){ ...

 
sbi
12:55 PM
That's a Java question. Burn the heretic!
 
burn(heretic);
 
@sbi Probably the ridiculous subsidy check has not arrived yet, so the actual panels are not fitted.
 
@Cinch I dunno why but I really started to hate this call syntax
 
sbi
@MartinJames Don't expect me to support you in bashing solar and wind power. My job depends on it. :)
 
I like it because it's similar to math and it does make sense
 
12:57 PM
@Cinch in math it's burn heretic
 
cry
 
as in, sometimes you add the parens
but you don't have to
 
@sbi I don't know about the infrastructure, energy-storage etc. I will ask in the club about the solar farm, someone will know about it.
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Must be new math then. I do remember y = f(x) from ym math lessons. That is many decades ago, though.
 
see above.
 
12:58 PM
Oh my god I'm not there yet....
 
I'm not sure which one is more common
 
yeah
f(x) is the more common syntax where i live
 
sbi
Do you live in the past? :)
 
but i mean
i can have ϡ(x, y) and its still good
or maybe flowers(x,y)
 
f x y works too
 
1:00 PM
idk that format
 
@Cinch WTF is that? It looks like an Australian satellite dish.
 
@Cinch that's what Haskell uses, incidentally
 
@MartinJames I was trying to find my middle school example of "cyclops smileyface" but I couldn't find one
Like, the letter doens't matter
it's a name for the function and that's it
 
I like application by space because it makes partial application much more pleasant
 
I don't even
 
1:02 PM
Not to be confused with partial evaluation. In computer science, partial application (or partial function application) refers to the process of fixing a number of arguments to a function, producing another function of smaller arity. Given a function , we might fix (or 'bind') the first argument, producing a function of type . Evaluation of this function might be represented as . Note that the result of partial function application in this case is a function that takes two arguments. == Motivation == Intuitively, partial function application says "if you fix the first arguments of the function,...
 
It looks foreign to me
I'd have to spend time with Haskell to do that
 
let add a b = a + b
let values = [1..10]

print $ map (add 3) values
--> [4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13]
@Cinch there.
 
is that actual code or is that slightly modified?
 
it's actual code.
 
they use [...]?
 
1:05 PM
well I didn't want to write all of those out come on :P
 
well okay
I think it looks interesting
Does it support objects?
 
@Cinch no. OCaml is an object-oriented language from that family. (with F# being the modern incarnation of their ideas)
Haskell is purely functional.
 
Seems interestin
sort of reminds me of Lisp
 
there are a few important differencies between lisp and haskell, which don't make them dissimilar in theory, but rather different in practice
 
I can see that
(I think lol)
 
1:07 PM
 
@Jefffrey lol
 
@Jefffrey lol
I'm struggling with shader specification daaaaamn
 
@BartekBanachewicz opengl shaders?
 
Oh hey, I have a programming-related piece of fiction I wanted to create; if I were to have a human AI character, how might I rationalize her existance?
 
1:11 PM
fun stuff
 
Besides for the lulz
 
@Pris I'm writing a shader generator
 
@BartekBanachewicz neat, i guess. language parsing is black magic to me. there was this neat project i came across awhile back that created its own shaders from glsl / hlsl... github.com/bkaradzic/bgfx
 
@Cinch her?
 
1:14 PM
@Pris I'm generating, not parsing. And parsing is actually pretty easy when you have the right tools
also while we're at it
Joe himself hand-painted every single one of those
there are no two ones that are the same
they retail for $7999, which I can imagine will skyrocket after a few years
buy one of those, stash somewhere safe, and sell after 10 years with +200% profit
 
what a horrible painter
 
@Jefffrey Yeah, as in human mind encapsulated within a program
Actually, is that a viable thing?
 
@Pris lol. Do you know who he is?
 
a god like guitarist iirc; had a room mate that was obsessed with him
 
yeah, he's amazingly good
not my personal favourite, but still great
the drawings are part of his expression
 
1:29 PM
the paintings look like they were done by a 7 year old
 
@sbi The weird names come from Dutch or whatever was his native tongue. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… for explanation of the semantics and the V() and P() operations.
 
@BartekBanachewicz pollock's stuff would probably look p fly on a guitar just because its so random and colorful
these look like satriani doodling stuff with a flourescent markers
 
@Pris I prefer raw wood look
 
I like them
not sure what you expected
 
1:36 PM
@Pris that's p much how they were done
 
is there some textbook on how guitars "should" be painted in order to be "good"?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit not look like fridge art?
 
well, you can paint a guitar badly
by fucking up swirl painting, for example
 
i like pinstripe art on guitars
 
mine looks like this :p
 
1:38 PM
classy and simple... very pretty
 
@Pris Bubinga wood has those characteristic swirl-like shapes
 
can you imagine how sad it would have been to live before the 18th century
pizza was not even invented
 
1:51 PM
at least we wouldn't have to worry about you growing into a 110kg monster by the age of 31 in the 18th century
 
you can't be sad over something that doesnt exist yet though
because you dont know how awesome it is
 
It pisses me off every time I think about how much awesome things that I would be missing because I was born 200 years too early!
 
too early for immortality and space travel. it sucks when you know what you're missing out on
 
you must be fun at parties
 
@Pris except you don't know anything of the sort
 
2:04 PM
we have not seen a moderator/SE staff for ages in this lounge
 
2:17 PM
oh they're here
don't you worry about that
 
once and for all
I've been trying to learn that are too hard for too long :S
 
i have so many shared_ptrs in this code... everything is a shared_ptr. pleeeease let the performance be good enough
 
2:35 PM
Does this make sense?
 
no, I'd have expected a nullrefexception there
 
@worrydream @angealbertini Frankenpointer!
 
user1804599
@JohanLarsson no.
 
 
@AlexM. I expected the sum to be null.
 
2:37 PM
Pretty hilarious. Swift trying to capture the crown so proudly worn by Java for all this time
 
@JohanLarsson ew
 
@JohanLarsson is this some kind of zero-sum game again?
 
maybe
 
(wow 3 typos, 1 message; that's kinky)
 
null + non-null int? should throw an exception
 
2:38 PM
@AlexM. why ew?
 
not equal null
 
user1804599
.NET's Nullable is horribly broken.
 
Need to fix my keyboard
@рытфолд at least it lifts operators
 
similarly summing int?s like that without guarding for nulls is meh
select non-nulls and sum those
 
@sehe Welcome to the club.
 
user1804599
2:39 PM
See Java's Optional, Scala's Option, F#'s option and Haskell's Maybe for how to do it correctly.
 
@AlexM. There is an explicit overload for Sum(IEnumerable<int?>)
 
user1804599
Don't auto-flatten, don't implicitly convert, don't try to emulate other broken language features such as null.
 
@JohanLarsson yes
and you asked if it makes sense
I said no and I gave you my reasons
are my reasons invalid because Microsoft thinks otherwise?
 
ok :)
 
user1804599
@JohanLarsson eww
 
user1804599
Use F#.
 
so it does check for nulls
then yes it makes sense
 
0 makes sense in a way
 
user1804599
> if (v != null) sum += v.GetValueOrDefault();
 
user1804599
lol that if statement.
 
user1804599
2:42 PM
the default is already 0, and x + 0 = x.
 
Guess the int? return type is what throws me.
 
@рытфолд so robust
 
user1804599
That's because you'd expect Sum(IEnumerable<T>) to return T.
 
yeah, maybe it is just symmetry
 
I can't find a path in that function to return null
 
user1804599
2:45 PM
Nullable is an ugly hack.
 
@AlexM. me neither.
I think rightfold nailed it
nailfold
 
it's not very nice because if the return type is int? you expect it to also return null
 
@Nooble Of course my keyboard is fine :|
 
user1804599
I wish I were a professional Perl programmer.
 
user1804599
A PPP.
 
2:49 PM
Pretty Poor Prankster
 
@JohanLarsson public static int? Min(this IEnumerable<int?> source) {
that one can return null
for the empty container
I don't get why they avoided this for sums and still kept the return type nullable
and for containers filled with nulls
 
@Nooble Your brother just asked a question:
0
Q: Notify my application when a folder is modified in Windows?

Cool_CoderI want the ownership of folders created by my application to remain only with my application. This is because I am linking my application's data to the folders path. So either of these 2 solutions are fine with me: Do not allow anybody to modify the folder created by my application. Only my app...

 
user1804599
@AlexM. Well if you can invent something as retarded as Nullable you can also invent something as retarded as int? Sum(IEnumerable<int?>)
 
user1804599
I'm extremely happy.
 
@Borgleader An impostor of the true leader. He needs to be banished.
 

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