« first day (1547 days earlier)      last day (3627 days later) » 

16:00
i wonder if we'll ever get modules and how they'd work
@Pris I've already got modu... oh you mean in C++?
@CatPlusPlus I think the mistake was trying to program
@LightnessRacesinOrbit why is it absurd? have you ever suffered through porting code across different platforms? on buggy standard library implementations? shit is nightmare fuel
That too
C++ is worst aspect of C++
i remember trying to port a lib to a device with this really crappy ass dinkumware stl implementation that used a compiler driver over an outdated version of gcc and the only way to debug was remotely through gdb
i felt like chucking the stupid device out my window
16:05
@Pris I didn't say building in C++ is not "nightmare fuel" — the thing is that there are much worse aspects of C++.
yay, past link issue
stupid stupid stuff
time for a coke... or bag of sweets me thinks
@LightnessRacesinOrbit im still a c++ beginner relatively i guess so I haven't seen the advanced nighmare mode stuff
@Pris Honestly, from this statement, it sounds like you are taking every possible problem you may have with any C++ program in any circumstance, and bundling that under "compiling/linking" because it's during "compiling/linking" that you are told about the problems. But that does not mean "compiling/linking" itself is the problem.
The worst aspect of C++ is that people like Alf and Vlad write it.
jokes
@LightnessRacesinOrbit i find certain things in c++ terrifying tho, like one time I wanted a version of shared_ptr without atomic ref counting so I looked through clang's implementation
i have never seen so many underscores in my life
16:16
@AndyProwl You posted a thing about Moscow and it made me think of that song for some reason <.>
@Borgleader ah, all right that explains - to some extent :D
9
Q: SpaceX CRS-5 Launch: What is the footage that appears to contain bubbles?

thexacreI'm currently watching the live stream of the CRS-5 launch. They've been cycling through several different camera angles including one which looks a lot like bubbles in water, or perhaps blobs of water floating without gravity. I was wondering what this footage is showing? If you watch that v...

cool vid
16:36
poor Vlad. stackoverflow.com/a/27878419/560648 is getting loads of attention now
I was the underdog to his answer originally
it's amazing what a tiny standard quote can do
aww he deleted it. was going to upvote :(
accepted. definitive win. sorry Vlad buddy :(
quick and dirty brace elision - blame c++ anyways :) More exact: with some grouping, some elided and -Wall -pedantic proof Pick your poison. But, at least it's not all horridsehe 3 mins ago
@LightnessRacesinOrbit je bent zelf een lul
17:01
I'm considering just using and and or instead of && and || in the future
I don't really see a downside
@orlp There's only one: Visual C++ is non-standard and doesn't support them by default.
@milleniumbug Sometimes I wonder what the fuck they're doing at Microsoft.
6
Implementing and and or fully into the compiler should only take a single developer a couple of hours.
Ell
Ell
@orlp it's non standard is a pretty bad downside imho
@Ell it is standard
@Ell No it's not.
They're as standard as digraphs.
Ell
Ell
17:12
Hmm.. a get out clause... I wasn't saying they were non standard, I was saying that "it's non standard" is a pretty bad downside
:P
@orlp It supports them on the "conformance mode" (/Za as far as I remember) and if you include the weird header that enables them in C.
Ell
Ell
unrelated to the replied to message :P
@milleniumbug Which are standard?
Ell
Ell
they are lower precedence also iirc
17:13
@Ell they are literally aliases
Ell
Ell
Oh. my bad
But I guess since MSVC doesn't support them...
@milleniumbug No, they are not digraphs. The standard doesn't normatively define "digraph"; it does concede that the term is used colloquially for "alternative tokens", but only for those which are not also keywords (and and, or are both keywords).
Why can't MSVC just get its shit together
@Ell that's in ruby
17:15
@LightnessRacesinOrbit @Jefffrey "They [the and and or] are as standard as the digraphs are."
Ell
Ell
@Jefffrey Ohh right
Maybe not everyone agrees, but I consider and to be a lot more readable than &&, but I guess I can't use that since MSVC is being stupid again
@milleniumbug Yes, exactly.
There is a language in which and and or have a different precedence than their symbolic counterparts, but I can't remember which one.
@orlp Use that and explicitly state "Fuck MSVC users! Get better tools next time."
1 min ago, by Jefffrey
@Ell that's in ruby
17:16
@rightføld (and anyone else if interested) I fancy working on a game that's more or less a Space Engineers clone... but I suck at the project setup shit... interested?
@orlp I don't like it. Speaking on principle, if a programmer needs to write in English because he she or it finds symbols difficult to read, the programmer isn't very good. Reading actual programming code should be second nature.
But there &&/and and ||/or have some subtle different semantic too, not only wrt precedence.
Speaking on principle, && and || stand out a lot more for me and so I find a conditional that uses them to be inordinately easier to read than if it had and and or stuck between alphanumeric variables names and whatnot
Ell
Ell
@Jefffrey something about short circuiting maybe?
@Jefffrey I wasn't thinking of Ruby
17:17
@LightnessRacesinOrbit not if you have syntax highlighting
I don't remember.
Can you guys stop spreading FUD?
&& and and are literally the same thing
The standard says they're alternative spellings
Ell
Ell
They are spelled differently
@orlp That's a pretty poor defence. "Yes it is harder to read, but we can make it easier to read again by colouring in the code." Just use the easier-to-read thing in the first place then you don't need tools to undo the mistakes you made in your code.
@orlp Yes, everybody is saying that.
@orlp Nobody is "spreading FUD".
@orlp They are literally different.
Ell
Ell
17:18
@orlp Not everyone uses syntax highlighting
4
@Ell lol
I use syntax highlighting
Ell
Ell
@Jefffrey lol?
1 min ago, by Jefffrey
But there &&/and and ||/or have some subtle different semantic too, not only wrt precedence.
1 min ago, by Ell
@Jefffrey something about short circuiting maybe?
I use code editors to write anything
17:19
2 mins ago, by Jefffrey
1 min ago, by Jefffrey
@Ell that's in ruby
@LightnessRacesinOrbit the fud I was talking aobut ^
@orlp You were talking about a different programming language.
Ell
Ell
We were talking about ruby
I wasn't.
I was talking about C++
Ell
Ell
17:19
I was :P
@orlp You were the only one.
Ell
Ell
Okay it was all a misunderstanding, let's just move on
@orlp Claiming that people are spreading FUD about C++ because they are talking about a feature of a different programming language, then defending it because you were talking about C++, is absurd.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Then why did you quote the C++ standard?
@orlp That was before.
Come on, keep up.
17:20
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Jeffrey was talking about C++
Sigh.
How can some people be so stupid
If you are in a position where you can say "fuck you" to MSVC users, use and and or.
Either way, doesn't matter
Now, what was that damn language...
basic
pascal
17:21
english
_"I don't like it. Speaking on principle, if a programmer needs to write in English because he she or it finds symbols difficult to read, the programmer isn't very good. Reading actual programming code should be second nature."_

I consider `and` to be more readable. That doesn't mean I find `&&` difficult to read, I just find `and` to be _easier_.
I think in that language and was equivalent to C++'s bitand, and thus &, and thus had a different precedence than &&
@orlp And I can't see why you would shrug
foo && bar is a million times clearer than foo and bar
the operator stands out a mile away
you don't have to read the code, you can just look at it
143
A: Difference between "and" and && in Ruby?

tadmanThe practical difference is binding strength, which can lead to peculiar behavior if you're not prepared for it: foo = :foo bar = nil a = foo and bar # => nil a # => :foo a = foo && bar # => nil a # => nil a = (foo and bar) # => nil a # => nil (a = foo) && bar # => nil a # => :foo The same...

nope, short-circuiting is the same
Ell
Ell
I guess just precedence then
@orlp I used to use the and/or operators for the same reason. Now it doesn't really matter to me if I use one or another.
17:24
Ell
Ell
and intention
For me the and stands out clearer, but if you don't use syntax highlighting I can see the && being more clear
who doesn't use syntax highlighting?
inb4 blind people
6 mins ago, by Ell
@orlp Not everyone uses syntax highlighting
@Jefffrey color blind people
:P
17:25
it has nothing to do with syntax highlighting. stop going on about syntax highlighting. syntax highlighting is great for enhancing your code-reading experience, but you should absolutely not be writing code using judgements that are based on syntax highlighting being applied
@Borgleader they just have to pick specific colors
@orlp That's a completely unfair comparison. Why is the && not in green?
I imagine code with lots of operators will be more readable with and, and code with long words will be more readable with &&.
17:27
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Because it is not? If you want it you can make it so.
is that dog high
Ell
Ell
@Jefffrey some people find it distracting
People that don't use syntax highlighting are destined to have p much everything blend in together. So I don't worry much about && being more or less noticeable than and.
@Borgleader That's a myth. Dogs are colourblind but only because colourblindness does not actually mean you can't distinguish colours. Dogs can distinguish colours just fine.
However it is true that in certain ranges their ability to do so is not as good as ours.
@Ell wat
17:28
"You should absolutely not be writing code using judgements that are based on syntax highlighting being applied." I do not agree.
@orlp Well you're trying to say your preferred version is more readable having deliberately made the opposing version less readable and have a sizeable unrelated disadvantage
Which is immoral
You racist
@orlp Then you are wrong.
I use judgements about code style that are relevant to the tools I use.
@orlp Then you are selfish.
Everyone is selfish hth
If you abstract away the tools you use, then your code will be better because it is not optimised for just you.
17:29
in moments like these I feel glad I plonked nightcracker
Ell
Ell
@Jefffrey idk what you want me to say man, it's true
and his absolute need to be right
who is nightcracker?
at any time anywhere
s/&&/and/
17:29
@LightnessRacesinOrbit orlp
@LightnessRacesinOrbit orlp
oh
oooooohhhh
thanks for the intel :)
@AlexM. yeah, it's not like everyone else also has that need over here
well it's worse in his case
:P
I would have to plonk half of the room, including me if I had to follow your standard.
17:30
god seriously what the fuck is that language i'm thinking of
mainly because I went through 3 or 4 arguments with him already
I don't even know that many
and two of them ended with "if you don't want X then I can't help you"
when I didn't even ask for help
he just entered the argument to argue with me lol
@AlexM. he is not that bad
Fuck me for trying to help people out of own initiative.
@Jefffrey can't agree with that from my POV
@LightnessRacesinOrbit except that it's not bitwise
17:32
@Jefffrey yeah I misremembered that
PHP is just even stupider than I thought and the two identical-meaning operators have different precedences
@LightnessRacesinOrbit PHP being PHP as usual :P
@orlp I don't recall you "help"ing anyone!
@orlp Pretty Horrific Party
P Horrific Precedence
2
@AlexM. typical condescending way to have an argument, by assuming and then acting as if the opposing party requires "assistance" and looking down on them because they must have some lack of education or personality flaw if they do not agree with your point of view
@Jefffrey :D
Hmm. Is it common that and, xor and or have difference precedence between each other?
I guess so.
17:35
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Nobody here knows how to have an argument, if they did, they'd be having a discussion. (P.S: that includes me)
kay time to take the meat out, I want that steak done
I also need uh... garlic
but that means I need to go out
Like, a && b || c && d being parsed as (a && b) || (c && d) and not as: ((a && b) || c) && d
I guess it makes sense
But then you would expect a || b && c || d to be parsed as (a || b) && (c || d) maybe
Ell
Ell
what does "Left-to-right" associativity mean?
something being "left associative" makes sense to me
but I'm not sure if "left to right" means left or right. I'd guess left but I'm kinda confused on that wording
@Jefffrey Yes, otherwise you would always need parens
@Ell It means that a@b@c is (a@b)@c rather than a@(b@c)
cpplounge, which text editor color scheme is the best
17:42
you could think of it like precedence within uses of the same operator
Ell
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit okay cheers
@LightnessRacesinOrbit which would kinda make sense
there's a well-known operator which is right-associative in many languages
I'm going to turn this bad boy into my dinner
as soon as it defrosts that is
mm
I would like a steak
not quite sure I can handle it with this hangover
also I need to leave at 7
17:43
oh shit
I should order pizza
even though I'd quite like to play some Halo before I go
steak is on :)
Ell
Ell
@Jefffrey oh nice

« first day (1547 days earlier)      last day (3627 days later) »