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12:00
I don't understand how youtube comments are always such concentrated hate and stupidity
There are a lot of trolls, but it goes beyond that.
Can't reproduce this motherfucker.
youtube is popular
lots of people use youtube
there are many people on youtube
@CatPlusPlus been thinking about experimenting with a statically typed language with full metaprogramming support
@AlexM. that explains why there are a lot of comments, not why they are concentrated hate and stupidity
12:02
no
the more people, the greater the chances for at least one of them to be a troll
the more people, the greater the chances for at least one of them to want to express their hatred and stupidity
user1804599
@orlp define "full metaprogramming support"
@rightføld built-in introspection and modification of the AST
user1804599
Template Haskell.
though I still haven't wrapped my head around it
type theory makes things annoying
user1804599
Scala.
12:05
@rightføld I'm not a fan of strictly functional
back in civilization
AST modification is dumb
I find the idea of a programmable programming language powerful
I'm not a massive fan of the homoiconic parts of Lisp though
freezing pizza dough is genius
whenever I want pizza I take one out
user1804599
I should really give Scala macros a try.
12:22
@orlp It is, but AST modification is a dumb way of doing it.
@Puppy what alternative is there?
user1804599
Woo shiny lenses.
what are you looking to implement by modifying the AST?
less needed boilerplate in a clean way
well that really depends on what boilerplate you want to eliminate.
user1804599
12:25
Cool, this library has quickcheck properties for optics laws.
but in Wide's compiler, you can extend the analyzer so that, say, calling a function object does anything you want.
you can also create new AST nodes and parser rules for them, and then implement analysis for them however you want.
I can see three ways of doing programmable programming
at a source level (C macros)
dumb.
at an AST level (AST introspection/modification)
also dumb.
12:26
or at runtime (homoiconic code)
not so dumb but not that useful really.
consider "Just extend the original compiler analyzer".
as in, a semantic level.
I don't understand what you mean with that
well, the compiler has a semantic analyzer that understands what a given AST node actually means.
so just extend that.
instead of mutating the AST so that the analyzer gives the new AST the meaning you want.
that's just the same
unless the new meaning can't be expressed in AST
it's not the same at all because it doesn't involve mutating a thing that is inherently immutable.
12:29
in which case I don't know how the compiler could generatoe code for it
and also there are lots of new meanings that can't be expressed in AST.
there's no Wide AST for, I dunno, loading a C++ translation unit.
why not?
@orlp Analyzer generates code. So extend it.
@orlp Because it's an analyzer function that has nothing to do with AST. All the analyzer cares about is that you called an object of this type with this argument.
my idea was to have a seperate step in the compile sequence
like resolve-ast or something
it already exists, it's called "a semantic analyzer".
12:31
that replaces all macros with their expansions until there are no more macros left
and also AST is just the normal input mechanism, there's no reason why the programmer using the analyzer can't add additional inputs or functions.
user1804599
It doesn't have to be the compiler's AST.
fundamentally
user1804599
Just an AST.
AST represents what the input source code was.
the input source code does not mutate whilst the compiler is compiling it.
therefore AST must be immutable.
12:33
maybe my AST modification wasn't the right term for my idea
even Wide uses a const AST and you all know how much I hate const.
I guess semantic macros is a better term
the only crux is that they all must be expanded/resolved during compile time
I want a cat =/
well
It seems me that you don't know what the parts of the compiler are and how they communicate and what they do.
so it's kinda hard to have a discussion with you when you can't name the part you mean
I have a rough idea, but I make mistakes from time to time =/
Virtually all macro systems are either AST splicing or source insertion
12:42
hence why they are crap.
lol
Why would you extend analyser if you want to reuse existing semantics
I find source insertion crap, but what exactly is wrong with AST splicing
I am suffering a brief 0.5 hour depression, I need rescuing.
If not I will probably do stupid things until I become too tired & retire to bed
12:44
the hint is in the name
it's an abstract syntax tree.
if it does not represent the syntax that your user used, then it's broken.
Yes and you're extending syntax
some compiler extensions extend syntax.
but that would only require adding new AST node types and parser rules for them, not mutating existing AST node objects.
AST is called abstract because it's not 1:1 representation of the source code
AST optimisations exist too
and they're also dumb.
12:45
Because....
because then the AST does not represent the input.
Because it doesn't have to
Why does it need to?
because it's an abstract syntax tree. For doing stuff with syntax.
stuff like int x; int a[x - x + 1]; is terrible.
After getting concrete parsing out of the way, the only information that you really need from original source is locations for error reporting
12:47
also for refactoring, quickinfo, autoformatting, warnings, etc
But it's again just a case of you never using a macro system like that, isn't it
how would you warn on x - x + 1 if some idiot optimized the AST to 1?
What's there to warn?
well it's highly unlikely that the user meant to write something as redundant as x - x.
12:48
just don't warn idiots
Xeo
Xeo
so... just warn before optimizing?
Use a Lisp and we'll come back to this maybe
user1804599
I don't understand prisms.
Xeo
Xeo
they break light
user1804599
No I mean those found in lens libraries.
12:50
lens libraries?
@Puppy "warning: x - x evaluates to 0; this is a very verbose warning"
well I gotta admit, I don't get it
normally "Don't randomly mutate shit for a totally different purpose than what it's supposed to do" goes over well here
Anyway; if x - x is guaranteed not to have side effects, just throw that shit out of the AST. Duh.
you can't know that x - x won't have side effects at the AST level.
you can only know that after semantic analysis.
s/throw the shit out of the AST/throw the shit out of the annotated AST/
12:56
morning, trolls
@LightnessRacesinOrbit morning king of the trolls
leaning towards "annotated AST also dumb".
morning, LightnessRace
used a completely separate semantic tree in Wide and it's going well so far
Whatever. "Throw that shit out of the tree you get from the analyzer run".
12:58
@LightnessRacesinOrbit 'morning'? Have you moved?
ah well actually, throwing that shit out is LLVM's job.
the language-specific analyzer only needs language-specific optimizations.
Doesn't really matter what specific structure it is (and it surely has some ties to the AST, right?).
@Griwes Nope.
analyzer don't care about AST, more or less.
Lightness is in the Azores?
..or floating around in the Atlantic?
@MartinJames Or the "trolls" part actually hinted he was trolling.
13:00
@MartinJames nope
@Griwes lol
holiday week innit
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That doesn't make 2PM "morning".
@Griwes It's 1PM, and yes it does.
It's 2PM and no, it doesn't.
13:01
this is a hot restaurant youtube.com/watch?v=oaIJbp0yFEI
the owner is hot
the female employees are hot
I don't even know why they use ovens anymore
I want to go there
@AlexM. 'This video contains content from Channel 4, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds. '
fuck copyright grounds
@Griwes Yeah, OK but I still can't see the hot cooks.
@MartinJames read that as hot cocks first
@FredOverflow Well, of the cooks are hot..
13:04
@MartinJames maybe this one youtube.com/watch?v=tf9uXqnxUvI
@MartinJames lol... so they can monetize it somehow?
something is not right /cc @CatPlusPlus
@Jefffrey that's perfectly right
13:05
how the hack did I not see the hats until now?
@Jefffrey The links, for one.
like until 5 mins ago, no hat on any users avatar
@chmod711telkitty You must be the only one who has not seen the hats.
yeah, weird
1. It doesn't contain the body of the wiki page
2. every link add a `the-law/`
13:06
@chmod711telkitty That's 'cos we've not enabled them.
more like I have not mis-clicked any triggers to release the hats that might already have been there?
user1804599
Yummy, ham.
@Jefffrey the law is everything
ANARCHY IN THE LC++
@rightføld I have sarmale
Sarma is a dish of grape, cabbage or chard leaves rolled around a filling usually based on minced meat, or a sweet dish of filo dough wrapped around a filling often of various kinds of chopped nuts. It is found in the cuisines of the former Ottoman Empire from the Middle East to the Balkans and Central Europe. == Etymology and names == Sarma means 'a wrapped thing' in the Turkish language, from the verb sarmak 'to wrap' or 'to roll'. Yaprak sarma (grape leaves with meat) is sometimes called yaprak dolması 'filled leaf' or simply dolma 'stuffed thing'; although dolma strictly speaking applies to...
people make them for xmas here
probably the best part of the whole xmas cuisine
user1804599
13:11
Scalalalalala
wikipedia sure chose the ugliest sarma picture as head pic
something like this would've worked better amelie.ro/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/sarmale-foi-varza.jpg
grape leaves sarmale are inferior
cabbage ftw
@MartinJames lolwu6t
@chmod711telkitty Hats are off by default. Hats are opt-in.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit She has one.
@AlexM. There is a Ukranian thingy that looks/sounds similar.
thought only wearing hats are optional
13:14
@MarkGarcia hats off to you then
@MartinJames dishes around these parts are borrowed and adapted all the time
@chmod711telkitty noper turns out it affects you seeing everyone else too
not surprised
@AlexM. Orite:)
@LightnessRacesinOrbit that's what I thought ...
user1804599
13:15
Orite? Is that a mineral consisting of ores?
Fuck the hats.
it's a hard time searching for foods originating from Romania for example, because the neighboring countries have been making them too and it's fuzzy
@AlexM. does kinda look like fecal matter on a plate, yes
@AlexM. Where I'm from we call it warak enab.
@MartinJames If we can decorate Christmas trees with ornaments, we can decorate avatars with hats!
13:17
Never heard the term "Sarma" before.
oh no wonder I've been feeling a bit crap
I'm still in the Java room.
10
Puppy likes to live dangerously
except he does C# for a living
well
13:18
@Puppy I was nervous when Fred debated there. When you showed up i got scared.
I need to get rid of all this rubbish before the food delivery man comes
someone say something funny
@Rapptz first time I hear of that name :o
wiki page doesn't seem to use it, weird
I wonder why
it looks like the same dish or a variation
TFS is not much fun.
yay, back to Beta Than Ever.
gotta admit that update has really rekindled my Kerbal fire.
13:21
The CI part is ok but the version control is ew.
@AlexM. Because it's Wikipedia. ;)
did firefox & wikipedia time xmas for donation asking?
@JohanLarsson They offer Git now.
@JohanLarsson They should replace that ew part with Git.
@AlexM. I think where I'm from Sarma is with cabbage leaves and warak enab is with grape leaves.
13:22
@Puppy I know but when we asked IT about it there was 'no strong business case' for it.
The one you linked in the image is obviously made with cabbage leaves.
But the one in the wiki article seemingly uses grape leaves.
Also history is probably gone if switching to git now.
Both are good though. One of my favourite foods.
Not that history is worth that much, can keep the old stuff in TFS and dig there when needed.
Anyway bye guys.
13:24
@JohanLarsson Why were you there in the first place?
@Rapptz Bye.
YOU'VE BEEN RUSTLED, JIMMY
@FredOverflow I went there to watch the discussion someone here advertised.
user1804599
@FredOverflow what is a prism help
@rightføld That thing on the Pink Floyd cover.
13:25
@rightføld A surveillance program.
@FredOverflow Dark side of the Lounge.
@JohanLarsson Were you satisfied? Or do you want your money back?
user1804599
@FredOverflow cooooooooool
user1804599
@Puppy the NSA must love lens libraries then!
13:28
Or just rainbows.
user1804599
I don't like rainbows.
Do you know any good chat to ask about memory management? (e.g. Intel x86 combined segmentation and paging)
user1804599
They contain terrible colours like green.
user1804599
@JuttaWinson Have you considered asking on stack overflow? There's thousands of people willing to answer your question.
13:31
fuck me the MGS2 theme tune is so good.
user1804599
@Puppy Which one? The intro music?
user1804599
I was just listening to the MGS3 sound track.
@FredOverflow Yes, but I think a chat is for this question better.
@JuttaWinson ask it in an x86 room then
13:33
@rightføld Yes.
Snake Eater is pretty solid too.
what the hell's a "diorama"
speak english
@JuttaWinson You can ask about Pizza in the Lounge.
Diorama is the fourth studio album by Australian alternative rock band Silverchair. Released on 31 March 2002 by record label Eleven, the album was co-produced by Daniel Johns and David Bottrill. While Bottrill had worked on albums for a variety of other bands, Diorama marked the first production credit for lead singer Johns. Johns wrote most of the album at the piano instead of his usual guitar, while the band took a 12-month break following their previous studio album, Neon Ballroom. Silverchair worked with composer Van Dyke Parks on Diorama; the album contains numerous orchestral arrangements...
The word diorama /ˌdaɪəˈrɑːmə/ can either refer to a 19th-century mobile theatre device, or, in modern usage, a three-dimensional full-size or miniature model, sometimes enclosed in a glass showcase for a museum. Dioramas are often built by hobbyists as part of related hobbies such as military vehicle modeling, miniature figure modeling, or aircraft modeling. == Etymology == The word "diorama" originated in 1823 as a type of picture-viewing device, from the French in 1822. The word literally means "through that which is seen", from the Greek di- "through" + orama "that which is seen, a sight"....
user1804599
@Puppy dat pun
lol didn't even intend or notice
user1804599
13:36
Can't wait for Ground Zeroes soundtrack to be released.
At least tell us the type of the third argument.
user1804599
46
A: Are IP addresses with and without leading zeroes the same?

Greenstone WalkerIt depends on the tool. For most purposes the two will be the same, but not always. For example, if you use a 3-digit number with ping then it will assume the numbers are octal. Microsoft Windows [Version 6.3.9600] (c) 2013 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. C:\Users>ping 011.012.01...

@LightnessRacesinOrbit Next would be a James Bond IP address.
user1804599
What cruel person would use octal representation of IPs? :(
13:40
dumb ones.
user1804599
I wonder whether you can use hexadecimal representations too.
@Fred: I accidentally put in a semicolon instead of a comma. I will consider SSCCE next time anyway
user1804599
% ping 0x01.0x02.0x03.0x04
PING 0x01.0x02.0x03.0x04 (1.2.3.4) 56(84) bytes of data.
user1804599
lol
woah - German sehr was originally, basically, the profane intensifier "bloody".
user1804599
13:41
seher
right time to stop flipping between chat, SO and Facebook
and do something
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I first thought the word "woah" originally came from "sehr" lol
@rightføld what :)
tdWTF is nice
> If the OS detected this, it should raise a YourDoingItWrong error.
@FredOverflow I hoped for more but got decent bang : buck
@MarkGarcia lolrly
13:52
lol std::enable_if<(A > B)> is interpreted as std::enable_if<(A>
I forgot how bad C++ was
4
are you sure that's not C++03?
the brackets should be enough to parse correctly.
user1804599
> type APrism s t a b = Overloaded Prismoid Mutator s t a bSource

If you see this in a signature for a function, the function is expecting a Prism, not some kind of alien invader.
4
ah rats. I tried. xbox ON
user925777
13:59
hey! what's your opinion, should functions take a struct that is 4 floats by value or by const reference?
no.
user925777
and where is the "border" when you should use const reference instead of passing by value?
Just ignore @Puppy.
Xeo
Xeo
@Jefffrey You suck
@JaakkoLipsanen There's no hard-and-fast rule, although the best rule you can apply is that if your object is the size of a pointer or less then there's definitely no point in referencing it.
I do?

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