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23:00
I'm OK with that.
although you could reasonably argue that you don't want to pollute code areas where the iterator is meaning less with the identifier, pretty much as you can use things like
if (T* ptr = get_ptr()) { ... }
user1804599
I am an addict.
Of what... Lounge? Coding? Bukkake?
from the context I'd say, it is either the latter or being addicted to writing words which people my consider offensive or wouldn't undestand.
Ell
Ell
I dont think they'd be considered offensive
pretty sure bukkake is a type of food
23:05
@AlexM. dont google it
Ell
Ell
Lol
interestingly wikipedia helps clarifying that term with a picture.
Ell
Ell
It's many men and one woman
bukkake udon noodles
no idea what you guys are on about :A
Ell
Ell
The men then spread their seed upon the woman
23:06
well, I reckon you can consider it "food". high on proteins.
Ell
Ell
And zinc
user1804599
which seems to imply that the receiving end shouldn't be females. anyway, I guess we are digressing.
that comment
23:07
@AlexM. We're talking about dicks, as usual.
user1804599
Digression is the Lounge's meaning of life.
Japanese are crazy :D
hm. I can't read Japanese...
user1804599
60 million Japanese and they almost all like alike. Once you have seen one young Japanese woman, you have seen them all. This is what xenophobia creates, a race that has a very littlle genetic variation.
I bet he was like "LOL SEX NOODLES HAHA LE FUNNY JOKE :D :DDDDDDDDDDDddd"
@rightføld lol
23:10
you could argue that the girls are simply bred to perfection! (I won't - generally speaking Japanese girls don't quite ring my bell)
@rightføld Dickgression?
user1804599
Dick Digestion.
mental note: Lounge C++ is NSFW
Ell
Ell
@DietmarKühl it is a lounge, after all :)
I'm actually on here at work with no issues.
user1804599
23:12
If it's NSFW you should be working, not chatting.
Buck Cake
I need to invent this recipe
Ell
Ell
I'm not sure about ContiguousStorageIterator
Or w/e its called
user1804599
Yet they don't generate any JS code. — Ray 6 mins ago
user1804599
Is he trying to undermine my answer? I don't like OP.
well, seeing that not all statements I'm making are clearly on the appropriate side of the line I always have the feeling that the sharp end of HR is just waiting for punce.
23:14
@Borgleader Hand-written.
@Ell: are you talking about the contiguous memory stuff being proposed...? (something I didn't pay much attention to although I actually should...)
meh contiguous memory
not something a generic abstraction really needs to handle IMO
Ell
Ell
I agree
@DietmarKühl yeah, for c++17
@Puppy: well, if you want to fast, you'll want to operate ideally on low-level entities.
23:17
@DietmarKühl Really? I wasn't aware that RA iterators that point to contiguous memory were any slower than regular pointers that point to contiguous memory.
if you ever looked at performance of deque vs. vector you'll see mostly the effect of deque operations not being decomposed into operations on contiguous memory.
geez, you go away for a bit and bukkake coming out of your ears all of a sudden
I did, and that's not really important.
deque vs vector is about choosing your implementation; a ContiguousStorageIterator is about modifying your interface.
@Puppy: a thin wrapper over pointers is essentially free. The moment you start operating on something higher left performance quickly decays.
and I don't see why that should be necessary given that you can perfectly well operate on the interface as is.
23:19
Well, I want my deque operations be as fast as vector operations.
well, you can't have that.
@DietmarKühl is that even possible?
user1804599
And I want 72 virgins, but I'm not a muslim so I'm out of luck too.
oh right, segmented algorithms and stuff
the result would be some magic container that has every advantage and no disadvantage.
23:20
... and I believe it is entirely doable by having algorithms unwrap the segments and operate on them (there is still a small extra overheader but a much smaller one)
@rightføld you can have your 72 virgins, but I am pretty sure they want to remain a virgin once they meet you
@TemplateRex: indeed - segmented iterators to get hold of the contiguous sequences. big deal? well, all that stuff adds up.
user1804599
@TemplateRex :D
this has nothing to do with wanting a contiguousstorageiterator.
@DietmarKühl yeah, I want that stuff, and proxy iterators too
23:21
what you're talking about is an iterator of iterators, as it were.
@Puppy recursively
or better a range of ranges.
a bit like the Hinnant hash proposal, now in Bloomberg OS code
user4282669
Hi.
@TemplateRex: that's what I'm working on when I'm not in a restaurant typing away on my mobile device... :)
23:22
there is no reason that, given an appropriate range abstraction, you could not simply map from range of ranges to range of results and then fold them into a single result as required.
@rightføld eeeew
@DietmarKühl proxy iterators?
I can see why this requires fixing iterators in general to not be shit but I don't see why contiguous storage deserves a special case.
well, not quite - I'm going the other way: decoupling access and position.
@DietmarKühl btw, did you have anything to do with implementing the N3980 hash proposal in the bloomberg toolbox?
23:23
proxies being essentially a separation between read and write won't really be necessary: property map access readily distinguishes between reading and writing.
@TemplateRex: is that the hash combine stuff?
given that you know about it I assume you are at Bloomberg: look at the DRQS!
@DietmarKühl but that's old stuff right, from boost.graph and boost.iterator
@DietmarKühl ya
hm. maybe you told me: you don't happen to normally sit about two desks away from me...?
I'm not at Bloomberg
... and, yes, I influence the ticket asking for hash combine although I didn't create it.
@DietmarKühl What exactly does that mean?
23:26
@DietmarKühl I have an open Q on extending the hash combine stuff to tabulation hashing stackoverflow.com/q/27527135/819272 Care to take a look?
@Puppy: what?
the hash_combine stuff was on Reddit and on Github github.com/bloomberg/bde/blob/master/groups/bsl/bslh/doc/…
@DietmarKühl Click on the arrow.
@TemplateRex: wow - people look at the stuff...?!?
@DietmarKühl haha, why else are you going to open source it?
23:29
@Puppy: it may be my mobile device but I don't see any arrow!
yes, it's mobile
Ell
Ell
Yeah its due to mobile interface
@DietmarKühl the arrow points to your "I'm going the other way: decoupling access and position." message
@DietmarKühl if you are on a tablet, and with Chrome, select "get desktop version" somewhere in the menu
then you will have regular layout of chat room
@TemplateRex: well, the reasons to open source this BDE stuff is a believe by one person targetting World Domination!
23:30
@DietmarKühl Mobile devices don't have it. I was asking about decoupling access and position.
@DietmarKühl I'm using this stuff and it works, just not for tabulation hashing (well it works for hashing, but not for incrementally updating the hash)
@Puppy: someone classified it quite reasonably above: like BGL's property maps but applies to sequences.
I have no idea what BGL's property maps are.
basically, I believe that iterators should be able to refer to multiple entities.
@Puppy just data structures on the side that store stuff about vertices/edges of a graph
23:31
at the moment, there is only *it.
I don't get it
@DietmarKühl That's just a range of ranges. Given ranges that don't suck instead of iterators, of course.
in a decoupled world, *it would merely yield a "key" which is then used with a another entity (BGL: propery map; Eric Niebler's ranges: projection) to get hold of the actually accessed entity.
user1804599
@Jefffrey nice
@Puppy: yes and no. it is a system of parallel ranges but the specific location being unique is an important property.
23:34
@rightføld is that some preprocessor that generates C code?
@Jefffrey ha, higher level programming in C, oxymoron of the year
user1804599
No, it's a normal library.
so, in my algorithms I'd read a value using
projection(*it)
and write it using
projection(*it, value)
sounds perfectly accomplishable with the existing iterator abstraction
23:35
(the separation into read and write having its own advantage, e.g., providing separate approaches reading and writing an entity.
@Puppy: well, I disagree.
@rightføld I don't see many alternatives
@rightføld lol
@DietmarKühl I'm not sure how this is supposed to work, unless it's illegal to read mutable references.
Ell
Ell
@Jefffrey the fuck
user1804599
@Jefffrey GNU C __auto_type
23:36
... and even if it is achievable using the current abstractions, creating an iterator with a modified representation is PITA.
user1804599
#define var __auto_type
the earlier linked Q on hash_combine now has a 50 bounty on it
@rightføld Sounds portable enough.
user1804599
Everyone uses GNU C anyway.
@DietmarKühl It is, but that's a general ranges problem, nothing specific.
user1804599
23:37
Except Windows savages.
@Ell wat?
@rightføld Clang?
@Puppy no, because access and traversal are orthogonal
Ell
Ell
Cello
and should be decoupled
user1804599
23:37
@Puppy Nobody uses clang. :P
Ell
Ell
When do you traverse when you don't want to access?
@TemplateRex wat
user1804599
And it becomes fun with statement expressions:
user1804599
 #define max(a, b) \
   ({ __auto_type _a = (a); \
       __auto_type _b = (b); \
     _a > _b ? _a : _b; })
23:38
@Ell maybe only read, not write
@Ell: the point is that you want to modify traversal and access independently.
@DietmarKühl ha, last update 2 xmasses ago
user1804599
inb4 C17 has _Auto.
user1804599
And <stdauto.h>.
23:39
@TemplateRex: yes, I got rather distracted by various other stuff. It is one of the my resolutions to use this year's X-mas holidays to create a reasonable set of initial implementations.
@DietmarKühl why not piggy back on the Niebler ranges?
wrong way around.
also, Eric has only marginal support for projections.
@DietmarKühl He's taken a look at yours?
part of the rason I''m doing the work now is that we only one shot and Eric's approach seems reasonable for ranges but not for the underlying iterators.
@Borgleader: we had some discussions but I don't think he is interested in the direction I want to take things.
the one thing about Eric's ranges is his claim that it is more powerful than D ranges, as if that is a good thing. I thought the great thing about D ranges was that they used the weakest preconditions to get the job done
23:42
Using only one operation requires different iterator types to deal with immutable and mutable versions of a sequence leading to const_iterator and iterator types associated with many containers and the tricky interactions between these.
What's tricky about them, again?
Ell
Ell
@TemplateRex yes. The weakest is the sane way
well, the power of generic abstractions to see if one can be applied on more problems than the other, ideally while having fewer requirements.
@rightføld always friendly
ah sehe, my language and general cultural educator
I have a resolution to start learning some Latin in 2015
@Jeffrey: for a simple example, try this:
if (v.rbegin() == v.crend())
(I realize that it doesn't drop out that directly but it does happen in practice that these iterators are attempted to be compared)
23:44
if I can grok that, I'll go after Haskell afterwards
@DietmarKuhl: I'm reading this stuff about the property maps, and maybe you have some more compelling examples, but these examples are not very compelling. It's trivial to adapt real ranges and it's also trivial to create new function objects with lambdas.
@Puppy: here is another example from earlier today: stackoverflow.com/q/27661680/1120273
@Puppy start here
Dec 1 at 22:28, by sehe
Boost Property Map is a generic programming glue library, used /mostly/ (and originating from) Boost Graph.
Or here
2
A: Is it possible to have several edge weight property maps for one graph BOOST?

seheYou can compose a property map in various ways. The simplest approach would seem something like: Using C++11 lambdas with function_property_map Live On Coliru #include <boost/property_map/function_property_map.hpp> #include <iostream> struct weights_t { float weight1, weight2, weight3, we...

@DietmarKühl Simple range map, equivalent to LINQ's Select(), seems plenty apt for that job.
@DietmarKühl It's with 3 "f"s. That doesn't sound like a problem with immutable/mutable iterators. More of a "don't mix different kind of iterators".
23:49
@sehe wmap1 ... wmap4, lol
@Jefffrey: well, there wouldn't be any danger if there were just one iterator type.
there wouldn't be any need for multiple overloads for begin()/end() and cbegin()/cend() (and a double pair or reverse iterators)
@DietmarKühl How would that implementatively work?
@sehe: actually property maps didn't start their life with BGL although Jeremy Siek invented them independently: I documented the idea long before him in my diploma thesis.
@TemplateRex That part is expressly the question :(
@Jefffrey: what what work? have just one iterator? Well, the iterator would position. To read or write a valued you'd use a property map.
23:52
@DietmarKühl Nice. Another thing learned
@sehe it hurts my eyes to someone with w1...w4 class members, instead of w[4]
alright, I'll give you that std::lower_bound does not seem to be maximally generic.
but that seems to be a general problem with std::lower_bound rather than any issue with the general principle.
@TemplateRex hmmm were they class members? That's not what I recall. But I'm too lazy to reread that post
@sehe oh just variables, you made them class members
I guess, this is talking about the projection to it->first as part of lower_bound() vs. sort().
23:54
frankly, std::lower_bound just seems to have a confusing design.
Has anyone read Stepanov's Elements of Programming ?
sure, you can do it differently in many ways. The thing is that I think it cursors/property maps componse rather nicely.
@DietmarKühl it is not my proposal, although I do think there should be a simple way to determine whether a container contains an element
@Borgleader yup, and the sequel
it's talking about comparing the results of the iterators but I don't see why that would be necessary, and does not support passing two different types to the predicates, and I don't see why.
23:55
@Borgleader: so far I only manged ~30%. I need to find more time somehow.
@AndyProwl gee, g/f dumped you already?
@TemplateRex Nope. Ah that's the OP's struct. The existence of that is rather implicit in the question, but suffice it to say I assumed bundled properties to his graph edges (as this is generally the simplest thing to do)
@TemplateRex ...
@TemplateRex I'm finding it a little hard to follow, and I was wondering if it was just me or a generalized thing
@TemplateRex movie finished :)
ah, the "movie"...
23:56
@DietmarKühl The thing is, real ranges (and std::lower_bound just seems plain in need of fixing for iterators too) seem to address all the cases you've suggested and a great many more.
except the constness thing, which is indeed dumb, but again, duplication is a general problem of constness and why I hate that language feature in particular.
@sehe he went out about 45 minutes ago
ah
and also the access thing, which is again dumb, but they're probably going to relieve it for iterators at some point and theres no reason ranges should have the same issue.
well, yes, you can create something with iterators for each situation. composing cursors and property maps makes it a lot easier, though.
23:57
@DietmarKühl Right, but ranges seem to make it even easier than that.
@Borgleader the second book is easier to read
the things, property maps are the relieve of the "access thing"!
IMO c.end() == find(c, x) is just not as clear as contains(c, x). Why is it silly to expect that a functionality like "containing" for "containers" gets its own algorithm and name?
fixing the problem of not distinguishing between read and write while also making it more flexible.
@TemplateRex Cool, I'll put it on my list of books to buy (which is sadly already really long)
23:58
I guess, I should work a bit on better advertising what that stuff is actually about ;)
you can't distinguish between read and write for a mutable container anyway.
if I request a mutable reference then you don't know if I mutate it or not.
@AndyProwl I am reminded of endless g/f conversations "do you know X? yes. What is it?"
and if you pass an immutable container then I can't request writes so
@Puppy: well, algorithms simple won't do that nor do they need to!
@TemplateRex wait, does that relate to standard containers anyhow?

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