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18:01
I'll probably have to take the absurdly-cheap room
you just need to survive
yeah
@Puppy I would recommend that regardless of whether you are broke.
user1804599
@StackedCrooked Indeed; we wouldn't want smelly rotten bodies in our Lounge.
Reducing living costs is like having a pay raise.
@rightfold at least not for too long
18:18
@StackedCrooked What did you cut out? Hoes every Friday?
(Sorry, I am not following the conversation.)
lol, no I just got a smaller apartment
It's a little cheaper.
@StackedCrooked I guess it's better to have a pay raise, you could simply live under a bridge for free.
there's no internet under the bridge
You can buy a modem with LTE and it will work everywhere almost
Well, like 5 years back I "knew" a dude (on #C++@IRCNet) who claimed he was squatting for several years then and working from Internet caffees etc..
18:24
I'm quite sure that working as a freelancer and working from an internet cafe is quite possible
I almost sat for 4 hours in a McDonalds with one coffee for 2$
@VáclavZeman TIL a new word: squatting
@StackedCrooked Wow!
user1804599
Pattern matching for deserializing objects:
user1804599
inputSocket.recv() match {
  case Serialize(obj: T) => transform(obj)
  case _ => ???
}
Shit.
I'm on the clockwise Ringbahn.
How did people refer to spinning directions before clocks?
6
18:35
left and right?
That's relative to your facing.
Clockwise and counterclockwise are absolute.
they likely faced a reference direction.
clockwise could be considered as north-right, and counter-clockwise as north-left.
user1804599
Gestures.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Good point
stealing it
The fuck.
The ticket machines are not accepting my card.
user1804599
18:42
Better leave it in.
I don't wanna travel without a ticket :(
They made me do it.
user1804599
inb4 fine
Bet that excuse won't work if they check me.
user1804599
@R.MartinhoFernandes They didn't. They are not required to transport you.
18:47
@R.MartinhoFernandes Actually, I've typically found that train conductors are quite sympathetic to such problems.
the lines here frequently have issues with the ticket machines (or stations that simply don't have any)
"I failed to make payment for this journey" is not a reasonable excuse when you're caught making the journey anyway.
user1804599
You should ask/tell the conductors beforehand.
It's pretty much the "I pirate movies because I can't afford to go to the cinema" argument.
All staitions here have machines.
if you find the conductor, tell him there was a problem with the machine, and offer him your money, then he'll probably be sympathetic
18:48
Of course you may actually have sufficient funds and it may simply be that the machine was broken, but good luck proving that.
Conductors don't interact with passengers.
Eh, then what do they do?
user1804599
The interact directly with wallets.
They drive the trains.
No, those are the drivers.
user1804599
18:49
Isn't that a machinist?
that's a driver
or rather, in England, we don't really have "conductors".
user1804599
Or driver w/e they call that in English. :v
The confusion probably stems from the fact that "conducteur" et al is a common root for "driver" in many Latin languages. But that's not how it is in English. The train conductor walks around on the train asking to check your tickets. Another one is on the platform making sure the doors are closed before the train fucks off. etc.
18:50
there's the "driver" who drives the train and the "guard" who checks the tickets, helps passengers, etc.
The worst is I actually had a ticket but blew it by taking the wrong train.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Before clocks, there was no time, so the concept of "before" doesn't apply.
user1804599
In NL the conductor is much like a captain on a ship.
but the ticket-checking guys all have the mechanics to sell you a ticket.
and they typically will if you have a solid reason for not having one.
Yeah at a huge markup
18:51
Yes. They sell them for 40 euros apiece.
user1804599
We don't have train tickets in NL anymore.
Buying tickets on a train is fucking extortionate
Xeo
Xeo
Man, mead is so fucking delicious.
here they just charge standard price
user1804599
Only credit cards. :v
18:51
@Xeo Thanks, Captain 15th century
@rightfold What, so the conductor asks to check that you've paid for the journey and you ... show him your credit card...?
user1804599
Not the credit card credit card.
user1804599
But a card that holds credits.
user1804599
You have to check in and check out.
18:52
charge card
How is that enforced? Only with electronic gates?
user1804599
we have those here for some train systems like the Lunderground
user1804599
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yes.
user1804599
Although on some trains there are conductors with devices that read the cards (in case the train travels to stations where electronic gates are not yet in service).
18:53
and the tickets we have double as pass-keys for mechanical barriers that operate on the bigger stations
We have those too in cities, but not nationwide - many stations aren't "secure" enough for that anyway
you could just sneak on board without swiping pretty easily
so you have to have a ticket scheme
@rightfold Aha
user1804599
The silly thing is, if you have a monthly or yearly subscription, and you forget to check out, you still get a fucking fine.
btw don't call those "credit cards"
user1804599
Even sillier, if you are a student you may travel for free, but you still have to check in and out. Like wtf.
Er, how else are they to know you're a student?
user1804599
18:55
The information is stored on the card.
Right, which is why you still have to check in and out, doofus.
So that information may be read.
personally I'd probably abolish rail fares and just raise taxes instead
oh great so the rest of the country can pay for the trains used by 3% of the population
Anyone here interested in a virtual hackathon?
user1804599
@LightnessRacesinOrbit The conductor's device can read it.
18:56
benefits bastard
user1804599
No need to check in and out for that.
user1804599
The only two plausible reasons for such a policy that I could think of would be oversight or NSA.
what
checking in and out lets you through the elec gates, right?
what the fuck is a virtual hackathon
user1804599
There are many stations without such gates.
18:57
and what about the ones which have them?
user1804599
But you still have to check in and out on them.
user1804599
@LightnessRacesinOrbit For those it makes perfect sense.
yeah god forbid the system should be consistent and not depend on the station you're at
@Puppy A hackathon is basically an event where you put your brain on overdrive in 24 - 48 hours with other programmers/designers and produce a working application.
ah right.
user1804599
18:57
@ChibuezeOpata Sounds like a horrible idea.
so basically, you're just spamming us for your crappy event.
The thing is probably that you are riding for free, but someone is still paying your ticket, and to do that it must be recorded (that's a wild guess here, but it does make sense).
go spam someone else
Haha not at all @rightfold That's how Ruby and Rails started.
appeal to authority.
18:58
@Puppy ??
user1804599
No wonder Ruby and Rails are total shit, then.
@ChibuezeOpata So it really is a horrible idea.
@ChibuezeOpata Just ignore him. He's a malicious troll and a bit of a twat.
Said LRiO.
user1804599
18:59
But 48 hours means you either do it at work (in which case you are dead during either the weekend or the next work day), or during a weekend (in which case you are dead on Monday).
@Griwes there're great sites built on RR
I see little purpose in synchronizing development with random other people
user1804599
There are also great sites built on PHP.
@Griwes Yeah- funding doesn't come from nowhere. The company giving you a free lift on their train would like to know how much you're using it. I don't think that's unreasonable in any way.
@ChibuezeOpata That says exactly nothing about RR.
18:59
@ChibuezeOpata Appeal to authority (again)
RR is shit.
@Puppy God, learn to logic, little boy.
user1804599
The fact that X is built with Y where X is good doesn't make Y good.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Me neither, but @rightfold seems to think that.
Guys if you don't want to do his hackathon you don't need to. Stop being cunts.
19:00
@rightfold Half the time, people name sites/programs/whatever that aren't even good.
@Griwes Yes I'm agreeing with you
or where they had no choice but to be built with Y.
user1804599
@Puppy That too. :)
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yes I am agreeing with you too.
@Griwes No, I am agreeing with you! Idiot.
19:01
lol
<3
If you don't know the answer please don't write any comments. — user1387981 1 min ago
2
@user1387981 lol — Griwes 9 secs ago
I love how the @username is counted in the minimal length of a comment.
@rightfold it's an indication
user1804599
19:02
@LightnessRacesinOrbit whahaha
@Griwes Let me inform the world's press
@user1387981 I know the answer so I wrote a comment. — Benjamin Gruenbaum 7 secs ago
Just curious, why so much cursing here? Is Javascript that twisted?
2
lol
user1804599
@ChibuezeOpata Because fuck JavaScript. That's fucking why.
19:04
lol "cursing"
user1804599
Nah JavaScript is fun. :P
user1804599
(Traceur dialect, that is.)
Why are we talking about JavaScript?
Naa, the best JS is ES3 dialect
user1804599
Because Chibueze brought it up.
19:05
With verbose function expressions
the best is Python, I think.
it's the only one I can name that's actively trying to become less fucked up.
user1804599
Python is not a JavaScript dialect. :v
meh
@rightfold Why did Chibueze bring it up?
user1804599
Ask Chibueze, not me. vOv
user1804599
19:06
The best dialect is Brabants jonguh!
@Puppy They named themselves after Monthy Python and their logo is a snake, that's a good start.
I was more just rolling with "Generic overly-dynamic low-requirements languages"
rather than strictly JS.
user1804599
Styx FTW.
well
19:06
lol
user1804599
I should implement subtraction and multiplication and then I can see if my factorial implementation works.
user1804599
And TCO while I'm at it.
I don't really have much exposure to Erlang
so can't really qualify on whether or not it's shit.
then again, I could always fall back on Sturgeon's Law to provide the answer
what a fantastically accurate heuristic that one is
@Puppy well, it's dynamic, and it's functional, and it has good concurrency primitives, it's also pretty old.
user1804599
19:08
We can also fall back on rightfold's law: "everything Puppy thinks is wrong."
How does boost::container::static_vector not have an initializer_list-ctor
@Puppy Here, everything you need to learn about erlang :
seen it.
user1804599
lol the sequel
user1804599
gar1t is great.
19:09
Yeah, he is, his nodejs and mongo videos are cult
user1804599
This one is more accurate about Erlang: youtube.com/watch?v=zY-IueSMAPc
Btw, going a bit off-topic on my purpose here... does anyone here write kernel drivers?
no.
user1804599
no.
user1804599
We leave that to low-level C savages.
19:11
but I don't really see how the Erlang properties shown in the video are any different to regular interprocess stuff.
user1804599
The processes aren't OS processes and communication can be over a network.
I fail to see how that makes a meaningful difference
-2
Q: I think Stackoverflow sucks and I want to complain about it. What is the proper way of doing this?

Nick ManningSometimes some of my great questions get downvoted because, despite their high quality, I mix in my frustrations about the site and its users within the question. Sometimes after a few hours straight with a couple cups of coffee, I can't keep my thoughts to myself and my questions have a slight n...

not being OS processes means that you can't protect from failures in non-Erlang code
user1804599
You can spawn a million of processes.
user1804599
19:13
You can write non-Erlang nodes if you don't want to risk breaking the Erlang VM.
@Puppy processes are really small
pretty sure that the VM is gonna get broken if you corrupt it's memory from a C library
user1804599
If you are afraid of that, you can spawn a separate VM that uses said library, spawn a single process on that VM and then communicate with it.
right, so how is that different to regular interprocess stuff.
user1804599
Even then, few code is not written in Erlang.
user1804599
19:15
@Puppy Whether you are communicating with a process in a separate VM or not is transparent.
2 mins ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
@Puppy processes are really small
user1804599
Also, you are describing an edge-case; something that rarely happens.
@BenjaminGruenbaum Not if you're spawning a VM for each process.
user1804599
You don't spawn a VM for each process.
user1804599
That would be incredibly silly.
19:16
@Puppy small as in - they start at 40 bytes.
you do if you want to interface with libraries not written in Erlang.
so, say, pretty much all of them.
user1804599
You can spawn a VM for every library if you want.
You end up spawning processes for things you normally wouldn't, which is nice, everything is separate.
user1804599
But god not for every damn process.
19:17
Wait, why am I arguing about it with you? You haven't even used the language once
user1804599
That too.
Because you fell into the trap
it's called a "discussion"
I didn't even voice any particular opinion about it.
just asked how it's supposed to be meaningfully different
Right, and we're discussing a programming model that you never used, but could easily use, form an educated and opinion on and then discuss more meaningfully
well, not really.
19:18
It'd be a lot harder to explain then it would be for you to just try it out and formulate an opinion on it.
user1804599
@Puppy It's meaningfully different in that spawning processes is cheap CPU-wise and memory-wise.
user1804599
But you also spawn them more frequently since the programming model is different.
@rightfold Only shitty ones that can't handle real code.
user1804599
No.
We've had too much of "stuff that works" and "stuff that doesn't work" in theoretical discussions imo :)
user1804599
19:20
For example in a game server you could spawn a process for every player and AI entity. May one crash the others can still go on.
There's a learn you an Erlang book that's not as good as LYAH as the name implies and is not written by the same buy but is pretty decent
Just give up, man. It's pointless.
@BenjaminGruenbaum I've primarily observed that people who try new things virtually never form a useful opinion on it in any short timeframe.
@Puppy they form much more meaningful opinions then people who don't try.
@rightfold Only if they don't include real code, since they're not real processes and therefore can't protect you from actual failures.
user1804599
19:21
What.
@BenjaminGruenbaum I quite disagree. You don't have a more meaningful opinion of C++ just because you've used printf in it.
@rightfold give up.
If you’re otherkin and shame other kins for their kintype or accuse them of trolling bc of their kin type then you’re a kin phobic asshole
user1804599
Crashing a process doesn't crash the VM.
@Puppy you'd have a stronger opinion on printf though.
19:22
which is pretty useless.
Honestly, everyone, just ignore Puppy. You'll be happier for it, and so will he.
@rightfold Why not? Real code can bring the whole OS process down with it.
@Puppy I'm not saying you should master Erlang, I'm saying you should try all these things in its process model.
user1804599
It would be nice if you could define "real code."
Because, you clearly (a) just learned about it and (b) don't understand it yet.
user1804599
19:22
Because to me, f() -> a(), b(). is pretty much real code.
@BenjaminGruenbaum Uh huh. And all those people who tried i++ + ++i, I'm sure they learned something useful about it. Or used memory after freeing it. Or any other of millions of situations where it happened to exhibit one behaviour in a totally non-scalable non-reproducible way.
Oh also (c) are for some reason beyond me really sure about it.
@Puppy I don't know how that's even remotely related. Edit didn't help.
user1804599
If you mean machine code then yes that can bring the VM down. But that can happen as well in C++ if you use threads. So what?
yawn
Hey, look! UNICORNS!!
user1804599
But try spawning a million threads in C++, or a million processes on your OS.
19:25
@rightfold So my whole point was that you can get the exact same observable behaviour in other languages.
user1804599
Except in other languages you can't spawn threads as cheaply as you can spawn processes in Erlang.
@BenjaminGruenbaum What I'm saying is that "Try it" only works in domains where you can meaningfully experience the entire domain. If you can only experience a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the domain, then there's little point.
@Puppy right, and you can experience the process model of erlang in just one evening.
@rightfold I can post work to a thread pool pretty cheaply.
19:26
@BenjaminGruenbaum Possibly a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of it.
user1804599
@Puppy Will all tasks run concurrently?
@rightfold Yes, they run asynchronously.
@Puppy why do you insist to exhibit such ignorance? Seriously?
5
well, let me see.
user1804599
@Puppy Can I put an infinite loop in a task without problems?
19:26
I mean, you don't know the Erlang process model, and you have strong opinions about it.
general programming models apply to, I dunno, approximately infinity problems.
We should have an "Ask The Expert" evening every Saturday in the Lounge, where people can come in and ask Puppy questions on any topic. Like a guru AMA.
so it's pretty clear that for any general programming model, it would take a huge investment of time to get a reasonable approximation of how it fits the vast number of problems it's applied to fix.
@rightfold Well, you'd probably suck up a hardware core, but that's about it.
There is no sense in being precise if you don't even know what you're talking about.
7
user1804599
Can I put a task on another computer in the network and communicate with it?
19:28
if you want to.
(That's a Von Neumann quote by the way)
user1804599
Is that transparent?
user1804599
You sure can, but you need something that provides this, and Erlang does.
depends on how much effort you put into it
user1804599
19:29
And Erlang does it in a very good way.
AMP manages to do it just fine
@AlexM. looooooooooooooooool
@AlexM. that site always reminds me of the old internet (tm)
yes, but you don't need a whole new language model.
user1804599
@Puppy what about eight of them if I have a four-thread thread pool? Will four of them starve?
19:30
@rightfold Depends on what the scheduler is like.
doctor who yeahhhhh
@Puppy Erlang is 28 years old, for the record.
user1804599
If I have a million concurrent users, can I create a million tasks that all have infinite loops reading from and writing to a million sockets, and put all those tasks on the thread pool?
user1804599
And also communicating with each other, of course.
if you really want to.
user1804599
19:32
I do.
user1804599
However, it would be nice if all the infrastructure for that were already written for me.
eh, that's more a library problem than a language one
not that having bad library concurrency primitives isn't shit.
FTR, I've often expressed that std::thread is a terrible, terrible API
@rightfold here's something constructive to do instead, it's JS but that's the only part you won't like in it, also you might find it trivial but it's about reactive programming and ponies so there's that:
user1804599
Define "reactive programming."
user1804599
Is it like FRP or like Reactive Manibullshitfesto?
user1804599
19:39
Oh FRP.
@rightfold uses reactive extensions, immutable collections and stateless transactional updates, also she says yoneda lemma twice :P
@BenjaminGruenbaum that guy..
@StackedCrooked what guy?
it's a girl?
oh, sorry then
kinda low voice
user1804599
19:41
in Java Sucks, Jun 17 '13 at 22:39, by FredOverflow
Is D day 2 talk 6 a man or a woman?
no wonder he looked weird as a guy
user1804599
I'm not interested in that talk.
user1804599
Streams (aka callback lists) are not very interesting.
Oh, I thought you might enjoy the ponies
the ponies help, but only a little bit
user1804599
19:47
I'm going to write def stream[T <: FSM[T, A, S], A, S <: State](fsm: FSM[T, A, S], inputs: Stream[A]): Stream[T].
did you mean to also add an offset (time thingy) to that?
user1804599
Yay!
user1804599
Now I can use user input for battles and display the intermediate results!
user1804599
FSMs are amazing.
19:53
> D day
hehehehehe

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