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Ell
Ell
00:00
I like Jeff beck s slow songs
But not really his fast ones
00:19
Most important C++14 feature has to be make_unique.
Ell
Ell
Its pretty nifty
Such an oversight
Ell
Ell
What dubstep do you guys listen to?
And I mean dubstep in the wub wub wub sense
Not the "original dubstep" sense
Mozart!
I often listen to mixes by a Belgian DJ called Murdock. It's a mix of drum 'n' bass with dubstep.
00:22
@StackedCrooked Not even close.
@OMGtechy Haydn. Beethoven. Tchaikovsky.
std::make_unique is such a minor feature.
I love Tchaikovsky, but I really hate trying to spell his name. Hell, I even copied and pasted your spelling.
@Rapptz Very useful, but truly trivial to implement yourself.
@OMGtechy Cheater!
Come at me bro!
00:23
@JerryCoffin Yeah, hence really minor.
@OMGtechy If you're going to complain, complain about doing it correctly: "Чайковский" (hope I got that right--been too long since I did Russian enough to be sure any more).
Wikipedia ru == Russian == === Proper noun === Чайко́вский • (Čajkóvskij) m ? A surname​. Tchaikovsky or Chaikovsky ==== Declension... ====
Yup.
@OMGtechy One good point about Cyrillic: once you get past the strange symbols in the alphabet, it really is pretty phonetic.
I had to make games for Ukraine once, it was not fun for moi on the language side of things
играть
@OMGtechy I'll refrain from further reminders of it then (well, for now anyway).
00:31
twitch thank you...it burns.
Ell
Ell
@rapptz what is the best feature?
Also can type classes replace concepts?
@Ell Simple (trivial?) exception safety?
@Ell generic lambdas, auto in functions, relaxed constexpr, decltype(auto).
nearly every other C++14 feature is better
@Ell Probably. Certainly the concepts general ideas are closely related.
relaxed constexpr has to be my favourite
00:41
auto in functions is the best feature
@OMGtechy I'm pretty sure constexpr was the one that gave compiler authors the biggest headaches in C++11.
Well the compiler can go cry then, I love it :P
MSVC doesn't even have constexpr yet
The relaxation in C++14 is probably pretty minor by comparison though.
I don't use it often, but I still have some kind of undying love for it
@Rapptz indeed, although apprently the preview version does now
00:42
just 'partial' support
chances are you won't see C++14 constexpr in MSVC for a long ass time
clang ftw
auto in functions is probably the nicest feature
sometimes I can't express things sanely with -> decltype(...)
it gets to be a fucking mess
auto in functions actually saves massive typing and headaches
also allows for neat lambda fuckery I suppose
auto test() {
    return [=](int x) {
        return [=](int y) {
            return x * y;
        };
    };
}
Ell
Ell
I do love c++
7
The ability to mix high and low level stuff to whatever extent you'd like is so cool
And RAII is jus the bomb
I think most people here secretly really like C++
they just know it has some headaches
Ell
Ell
Yeah
But no language is without fault
00:50
Hello everyone, okay I can't type right this mobile chat thing is horrible.
I don't get the point of lambda capture expressions.
@Ell Haskisp is perfect. Or is that Liskell? I can never remember...
@Rapptz Explicit is better than implicit?
Good morning.
@MarkGarcia ..?
[value = 1] { return value; };
how is this any better than [] { return 1; };?
00:52
@Rapptz Surely if it boils down to return 1; then the new capture expressions would not make any sense.
But it's meant to be generalized especially for accommodating std::move and beyond.
I don't see the use of moving something either
@Rapptz Still, they should have allowed mixing declarations for functions using auto and explicitly giving the return-type. ;-(
I have commonly encountered the unique_ptr capture scenarios in using async/futures. Of course I would not want to pass the arguments for constructing the object to the lambda, which may be move-only also.
move-capture is something I need often
I got through with using shared_ptr, which is suboptimal.
00:57
@Deduplicator ..?
move-capture could only be called once though
@Rapptz You said you especially liked auto return-type for normal functions. Only trouble with it is, you cannot mix it with declarations giving the return-type explicitly. Explicitly disallowed.
Ell
Ell
I'll listen to that in a second stackedcrooked
@Rapptz Probably depends a lot on how much you use things like unique_ptr that are move-only. If you're using them much, wanting to capture them sometimes seems nearly inevitable.
@Deduplicator I don't see how this is an issue.
Ell
Ell
Im always jelly of the desktops on /g/
They all look so cool
01:01
If I wanted to explicitly say the return type, I would.
async and thread allow you to pass extra arguments e.g: std::async([](unique_ptr<T>&& p) {/*...*/}, std::move(p)); This is a simple workaround.
Ah, but what if you later see that you need to use it from another TU as well?
If you design your interfaces like that you can get by in C++11 pretty cleanly.
@Deduplicator I feel like I'm misunderstanding you.
You're saying this is disallowed right?
auto f();

int f() {
    return 10;
}
01:03
Okay. I'm not seeing the issue still. Why would a separate TU mess it up?
@StackedCrooked Yup, but I was managing std::threads myself, along with futures and promises. Thinking of it now maybe I've overdone it.
Ell
Ell
@jerry I'm not sure. I haven't seen the beauty in lisp yet :P
Also the other way around. And you cannot call a function if the compiler has no idea what return-type it has.
I know.
It was one of the first answers I gave in a year ago.
@Ell I waver on Lisp. Somewhat like C++, you need to use it almost constantly to be able to overlook its shortcomings and see its good points.
01:05
11
Q: How do I declare a function whose return type is deduced?

Mark GarciaConsider this C++1y code (LIVE EXAMPLE): #include <iostream> auto foo(); int main() { std::cout << foo(); // ERROR! } auto foo() { return 1234; } The compiler (GCC 4.8.1) generously shoots out this error: main.cpp: In function ‘int main()’: main.cpp:8:18: error: use of ‘auto...

@Rapptz Oh. I almost forgot that.
It's been so long!
A year and 3 months.
How is the compiler supposed to handle that?
@BaummitAugen As seen, errors! ;)
@Rapptz Found it, but that's something else.
Ell
Ell
01:07
@stacked I liked that a lot
How is it something else? :v
Trouble is, you only handle declaring it in the same TU as I see it, right?
honestly
I write header-only libraries
and whenever I write auto, they're in header-only situations
these things are a non-issue to me personally
Well, in that case it is a non-issue, I concurr.
3 more years (hopefully) until modules
C++14 kinda flew by, will C++17 be the same?
user3010322
01:11
Pff.
user3010322
Flew by.
I don't think so. Lots of goodies also in the libraries.
user3010322
Every moment was painful agony, waiting for features to finally hit the compiler deck and be production-ready.
@Rapptz Close, I'm guessing. With the number of TSes coming out, may seem even quicker.
user3010322
And the libraries are still being sorted out.
01:12
C++14 didn't add any libraries
Too bad they require the using directive.
Ell
Ell
That does look nice
@StackedCrooked Are Chrone literals a symptom of Chrono's disease?
possibly
Ell
Ell
I wonder by what factor modules will speed compilation up
And if msvc will ever implement them
Or if clang will have taken over by then
01:17
@Ell Will depend on the source, but for template-heavy code, it should be quite substantial.
1) A lot.
2) They'll fake it.
3) Na.
@Ell Est. time of release / Actual time of release
It's taking so long.
@Ell They will be sped up by a factor of 1.61803398875
@StackedCrooked Only if you're inside a McDonalds (those Golden arches affect the mathematics of ratios in ways even other restaurants can't/don't).
Ell
Ell
@stackedcrooked sorry I need a more precise answer :(
01:20
@Ell Of course they will, though they'll base it in another standard, then Robot or Puppy makes their rants at the feedback forums while Herb is smilingly showing their conformance roadmap at cppcon 2020.
@Ell Pretty sure Y-cruncher can help. Have to check with @Mysticial to be sure (or maybe Google for it and check docs, if you're so inclined).
@JerryCoffin I ordered 5 x 4TB drives this morning. Yes, I'll have more precision. :D:D
@Mysticial 20 TB eh? How much of that is for Pi and such, and how much for serious pursuits (anime) ?
Ell
Ell
I'm getting sleepy
Jeff beck is putting me to sleep
Night everyone :)
@Ell G'night.
01:30
@Ell Good night. Say hi to Scott Meyers for us.
@MarkGarcia Mostly, they'll build into an up-coming version of the compiler, and people will complain that they haven't back-ported it to VS 5, so to get an upgrade they have to...get an upgrade.
Because it would break the world! Oh noes redists are fighting themselves!
@minitech: Are you here to gloat over closing that "How to I send spam" question? :-)
@JerryCoffin …
… no.
In fact, I’m not even here!
@JerryCoffin 2 of them for Anime for starters. The other 3 will be on used for performance testing while I they are on standby for other uses. (which will very likely be for more Anime)
01:38
@minitech You are not? Does that mean Jerry is hallucinating again?
@minitech Ah, the woe of my life having to live with these strange illusions. "I see...moderator people."
moderators are not people, they are bots with guns ... waiting those are community managers. Move on ...
@Mysticial So are these HGST drives? I'll be interested to hear how they perform--I've been considering a new HD or two as well.
@chmod711telkitty If I don't include the "people", it ruins the movie reference. youtube.com/watch?v=dsNjQhyvRnU
@JerryCoffin WD green drives actually
So they're supposed to be slow. We'll find out how slow.
my friend's WD Green failed on him after transferring 1 TB of data
01:44
@Mysticial Hmm...not what I would have expected of you.
I have some older WD green drives. IIRC, they weren't really that slow.
Wow, My ISP just upgraded my internet speeds for free. It's amazing.
300mbps down and 50 up.
Hands down best email I've gotten.
@Mysticial I had a WD green as well, but do upgrades rarely enough that I never had anything close to the same age to compare it against.
02:00
@Nooble nice! Who's your ISP? Only company I know that do that is Virgin Media
chicken pecking order ...
02:19
My ISP is Time Warner
Apparently they're phasing out some old plans, so everyone moved up a spot.
oh nice
user1646075
ugh demos
Next thing you know: Free Gigabit connections for everyone
user1646075
hello folks, how's the pacific and asias shift going?
So you can do netflixception stuff
You know, watch netflix while watching netflix watching netflix
user1646075
02:29
@Nooble ;-( a pipe-dream for australia. mired in the tyranny of distance AND (mostly) political shit-fights. Our interweb speeds are frankly embarassing
Before my 30 Mbs I had 0.03 Mbs
Not MB, Mb
D:
user1646075
@OMGtechy i feel slightly better then
Downloading a game was ... lengthy
user1646075
currently I see bursts of about 900kbs - that's ptobably the peak for my wires. There's a national broadband on the way, but politics is fucking it up seriously.
Damn politics
02:31
900kbps? How do you even download games on that one?
user1646075
wierldly, the first places on these multi-gigabit wires were places you'd probably expect only lizards to live
user1646075
@Nooble fortunately I don't desire such
Lol I remember this one game that had a 60gb patch
Do you remember what game it was?
Titanfall
user1646075
02:32
yeah, allowing ps3 game patches needs careful planning
Ouch
Do they have 4g at Australia?
user1646075
there's one company flogging access to the national broadband in city locations now connected, and they helpfully say in the adverts something like "slovinia has faster internet blah blah blah"
You could like, use it as a hotspot
user1646075
yeah, 4g is a year or so old now. maybe 3? /shrug
02:35
Hmm. Have you tried this one product, I think it's called Puck. It's basically a global hotspot device thing. Speeds up to LTE
user1646075
how many dollar signs do you have to throw at it? the upside of my (allegedly) 1Mb service is that it's seriously cheap now - and the most common option for most people with casual needs
I'll go check.
user1646075
LTE for upto 300Mbs - sounds good.
user1646075
Luxury.
It says 50 USD per month 6mbps
You know, in New York, a 30mbps plan is really cheap and common. Something like $15/m
user3010322
02:43
Ugh.
user1646075
good price - for the throttled speed then...
user3010322
std::ref sucks.
user1646075
i do $60AU for my net and home phone - which gets used about once every 3 months! but it's good standby for the kiddies
I don't seem to get throttled. At least not when I do tests.
user1646075
@ThePhD do share
user1646075
02:44
@Nooble i mean, the spec for LTE seems to say upto 300mbs so 6 is throttling i assume
Oh.
user3010322
@aclarke Handling for the data when looking at both get and set semantics SUCKS.
Thought you were talking about my home connection, which is 300mbs
user3010322
It makes sense for something like algorithm to copy all the time, and it makes sense for std::bind and friends to do it too,
user3010322
the problem is when you start asking "hey, at the end of your algorithm, I'd like you to return to me the thing you've been kicking around"
user3010322
02:46
Before, when I wasn't using std::ref, I could uniformly say all lvalues were put up as pointer values.
That link is tempting
user1646075
@Mysticial pure genius - Jackass is a documentary on america isn't it.
user1646075
@ThePhD but doesn't it feel good to be doing things the Offical Way ;-)
user3010322
No.
user3010322
02:49
It feels like shit.
user3010322
These semantics are shit.
user3010322
We have r-value categories now. If someone gives me an lvalue it is not bad to assume that they want a reference and to treat it as it is: a reference.
std::sort unsorted: 1184ms
opsort unsorted: 1083ms
std::sort sorted: 222ms
opsort sorted: 23ms
user3010322
If they hand me some sort of r-value, I can assume it's a temporary or that they explicitly want it to be moved / copied down.
#goingplaces
user3010322
02:50
The copy-everything semantics are just bad.
user3010322
And it's also fucking my day up.
Official Way™
user1646075
dang demo time restarts. wish me luck. pray the gods of righteous exception grant me their grace.
demo?
What demo?
user1646075
@Nooble yes, i've trademarked that. Actually, would be a GREAT name for a library. Standards, there's so many to choose from.
user1646075
02:53
mine. my turn to shine
user1646075
programming would be great if only there were no expectations of delivering shit that was complete and under some sort of scope requirements
School would be great if it was like that.
user1646075
schooling is sooooo much easier than real life
user1646075
may not seem like it now... but you wait.
user1646075
02:55
real life is Scary™!
user1646075
ciao!
But freedom!
user3010322
Ugh.
user3010322
Now we can't even keep Unqualified for get
user3010322
Fuck this gay earth.
02:57
So... what's the "demo time" aclarke was talking about?
school harder than real life is hard to believe.
user1646075
03:13
@Nooble 10 minute delay. Demonstration. First you get given an unbelievable list of BS to write. Then you are given less time to achieve it than originally planned. Finally you get to demonstrate it to people who have a vested interest in it. The life of a programmer.
user1646075
@Nooble if you want freedom, become a homeless person who eats from dumpsters.
03:37
@aclarke I prefer being a god who knows all and commands all. Homeless person would be a really close second though.
user3010322
04:19
Bleh.
user3010322
It's the best I could do. ._.
user1646075
04:41
@JerryCoffin d'ya think I scared the young fellow? I like to think yes.
04:56
you know ... with freedom comes the look normal people give you
people are ants
once you stop acting like one, you tend to attract a lot of attentions
which is awesome if you are an attention whore
that's why I used to think intelligence & beauty are the best intrinsic qualities to have, only to discover that actually mental strength is a lot more important if you want to succeed in anything, include freedom
user1646075
@chmod711telkitty that is incredibly profound. Why can't more people figure it out? Why don't they REALLY teach it in schools?
user1646075
my 10yr old has ended up "on a level 2" because he shared this:
They do teach 'leadership' classes in Master of business ... and MBA I assume
user1646075
user1646075
or similar with a friend on their school ipads. WTF???
user1646075
05:04
and he's trying to tell me "but the gun is clearly a fake, you can see the plastic screw through the magazine chamber, it's so unfair blah blah blah"
nope, ants aren't supposed to know they act like ant ... only 'leaders' supposed to realise that ...
user1646075
and it's clearly an hilarious photo...
user1646075
ants or sheeps. I detect a powerful force in many people to blend in, and I can't figure out why that feels so good.
because that's human nature
all social animals do ...
user1646075
sad but true. So what happened in my formative years to ruin my interest in being like everybody else?
05:07
probably encoded in your DNA
user1646075
and should I be seeing a councillor or a lawyer?
user1646075
@chmod711telkitty X-men style or something, just more subtle?
user1646075
an extra arm on the 11th chromosome (the loud one)
a lot depends on your education too ...
user1646075
just ordinary middle class aussie
05:09
like children follow adults into certain religion
user1646075
yeah strange that. I wonder why children in deepest darkest amazon forest don't spontaneously become christians or whatever with no outside influence....
user1646075
05:39
oh noez
user1646075
satan walks amongst us
06:08
Text and sub-elements, mixed). There's a surprising number of XML parsers that don't have much insight here, and I'm only testing with MSVC/GCC here, but no index 0. Therefore, you get all intermediate indices "for free". Of course, if you wanted separate vectors for each line (don't expect efficiency) then you can simply replace the same memory chunk that name still (erronously!) refers to. Much worse things might happen. You should take the one of the two, and take the return values of filename() (and the missing delete[]) avoids unsafe buffers for getline by using std::getline combines c
(see full text)
I think it's not so good as the git man-page generator.
@aclarke Simple. Not fitting in is a tangible risk to physical security. Fitting in is a leverage to social benefits. People (a) want to survive (b) are lazy. So they want both the first and the latter.
Church councilors will have a field day with your insecurities :)
At least the ones I used to see
@aclarke Sorry. I'll be off to work then
user1646075
@sehe no, not you. look at the user icons closely...
user1646075
@sehe I think I'd have a field day with a church councillor
morning
user1646075
morning. I see Europe is tasting the sun's first rays.
Europe would be still in bed right now but he happened to wake up early
user1646075
06:22
weather has been very balmy today, you'll enjoy it.
user1646075
amsterdam is about 7:20AM ?
user1646075
8:20
user1646075
which is hideously for any programmer or student, admittedly
who cares about amsterdam?
user1646075
umm, sehe is in nederlands? no?
06:24
@aclarke Oh it's prolly unfair to generalize them. But yeah. Most of them :)
user1646075
@sehe What were you in for? thought crimes?
no idea but he's not the one who just said "monring".
user1646075
"he happended to wake up early" refers to who, then?
@aclarke :) I wasn't in for anything. I just witnessed enough
me.
06:25
The sun
user1646075
oh - the royal 'he' then
speaking of which
he is probably just going to go back to bed.
@aclarke So, Nican? He always lurks. Not quite as successfully as Praetorian though.
I think Praetorian easily spent more time in chat than anybody else, except for the chatting.
user1646075
@sehe no, something called 'opposingthetypicalitrecruiter'
user1646075
it's gone now.
user1646075
06:30
a quick look at the profile showed that it was just some typical recruiter
@aclarke Ah. We scared him off proper :)
user1646075
without a shot being fired!
shhhhh
@rightfold look what the cat dragged in
user1646075
he read the transcript and excused himself for an early pub lunch to help forget
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour [c++] [c++11] [c++14] [c++-faq]
user1646075
06:34
nice. Gives me chills
One of many verses I used to memorize at a summer camp :)
Some verses were a bit more cheerful, granted.
user1646075
@sehe I spent my youthful summers memorising stupid jokes and rhymes, and crashing my bicycle.
That's hard. I found it impossible to crash my bike. Somehow that kernel just would keep going
last time I crashed while mountain biking, I lost half a tooth & loosened another one
interestingly I injured myself in almost no other places ...
06:56
will you 1) catch her 2) run away so she doesn't crash into you 3) video tape it so you can post it on youtube 4) call emergency services 5) others (please specify)
user1646075
@sehe i suffered a painful cycling accident that only a boy child would suffer from. Details not forthcoming...
user1646075
3/
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked Very cool - my debug flash player tells me it's accessing null references :/
07:12
None should be used, for they are all C library functions and thus terrible. — Polymorphic Potato 8 secs ago
@sehe what on earth?
user1804599
@ThePhD the undocumented API with weird state keeping made me believe the first argument was used in stuff like error messages.
user1804599
Hence "asio.io_service".
user1804599
I didn't realise the API confused "user data type" with "name of variable pointing to user data type."
user1804599
The name "userdata" is also highly confusing; it's not userdata, it's conceptually a type of which instances wrap userdata.
07:16
morning
Design mistakes like the API confused "user data type" with "name of variable pointing to user data type" are easy to prevent; defer X until X is actually dealt with. Don't do parts of X in Y.
And mind the difference between "X" and "some name for X."
@Rapptz I openly like C++.
07:35
Do you go to parades, too?
C++anal Parade
Yes just slap anal on things, this at least makes it painfully clear.
@BartekBanachewicz That's a PITA, which is a pain.
@thecoshman nevermind, he doesn't like salty dogs
@aclarke :D
@rightfold How does a variable "point to a type"? You mean "p" in, struct X{}x; auto p = &typeid(x);?
Maybe it's a type variable
user1804599
07:45
@sehe it points to a Lua table that describes what is conceptually a type.
Ah Lua usertypes are values @sehe
What status code should I use for login failure that isn't related to WWW-Authenticate?
@sehe who? what? where? why? do I care? should I care?
@PolymorphicPotato erm... if you are refusing them because they are not authorised, there is only one response code for that
302 IIRC
302 is a redirect.
401 is unauthorized but it requires WWW-Authenticate header which I don't want.
403 maybe...
07:50
@thecoshman I'm not about to get normative about tis. Butttttttt. Yeah, you cared. Apparently. Don't ask me why
@PolymorphicPotato so why is the login failing?
Because the user entered the wrong email address or the wrong password.
@rightfold ah. stop talking lua :_
@PolymorphicPotato that should be 401 :S
10.4.2 401 Unauthorized

The request requires user authentication. The response MUST include a WWW-Authenticate header field (section 14.47) containing a challenge applicable to the requested resource.
07:52
yeah...
I could do WWW-Authenticate: LoginForm. It's legal.
In question stackoverflow.com/questions/25905263/… they say that "(u_int32_t)(lx|(-lx))>>31 is equivalent to lx==0? 0:1.". It is stated that it was done like that to avoid the branch. Would ! (lx ==0) be as performant?
Ask the compiler's optimizer.
Micro-optimizations are its profession.
Rephrasing: From a theoretical point, the snippet i posted is also branch free, right?
At the C++ level, yes.

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