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13:01
so apparently desktop browsing is 75% of the internet browsing
@CJ7 We can't debug complex DLL interactions by chat. It's that simple.
@CJ7 why are you telling me? I'm not in charge of reopening questions. If people closed your question because it lacked information, and you are unable to provide that information, then don't you think the question should be closed?
If a question cannot be answered, then saying "please" or "it's unfair" isn't going to make it more answerable.
@CJ7 the rule of the thumb is to add informations such as "which library" the code that fails in the library and where it fails. I didn't see the question but sometimes it happens that people ask questions: "something isn't working" and thinks that we anyone can find the issue without more details
13:06
seems to me like that guy is simply ignoring everyone telling him that what he wants is not possible
@DeadMG It's hard to blame him for assuming we're just being dicks for fun
we often are dicks for fun
that doesn't make what we say less true.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ¬_¬ If I had any skill with photoshop s/HOWDY/Fuck You/
@DeadMG phd?
nah
13:09
@AndyProwl well just find the right team and you are a super star :P
> Dude, stop. These jokes are awful, Anne Frankly I won't stand for any more of them
@LightnessRacesinOrbit powerful image
eh
it's actually kinda hard to make out.
user1804599
I’m going to order Object Oriented Software Engineering: A Use Case Driven Approach.
pfft
it's probably better named OOP: A Getter/Setter Driven Approach.
13:11
@rightfold Studying Uncle Bob's clean architecture?
user1804599
Yeah, because getters and setters are use cases.
user1804599
@AndyProwl Kinda.
user1804599
I want to read the book.
well, I haven't actually read the book
I'm just generally being sarcastic about the state of OOP literature.
I feel I should read it too
13:11
better read SICP it's free and it's awesome
which IME trends heavily towards Java-style shit.
Java is clearly the pinnacle of OOP
@ArneMertz Nah, I'm not even close to being one. I suck so hard at so many things. The only gap I filled quite well is C++.
user1804599
Wut.
user1804599
On Amazon it’s thirty bucks.
user1804599
13:13
On Bol.com it’s like, a hundred bucks.
user1804599
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix SICP is about something completely different.
user1804599
Also, I already read SICP.
user1804599
@DeadMG It’s about the principles. It’s not to be taken 100% literally.
But even sicp applies to many more things.
13:14
and the principles are usually hideously broken.
@rightfold Perhaps you noticed already, anyway often amazon.de and amazon.co.uk have different prices. Just so you can check the best option.
user1804599
You haven’t read it, moron.
I find "You should compose your program of patterns like molecules are composed of atoms" to be a common one.
That book is not about patterns I think though
@rightfold Yes, I said as much up there. As I said, I'm complaining about OOP literature in general, rather than this particular instance, since I haven't read it.
user1804599
13:16
I want to read it before I can rate it.
hmm
I just realized this function's signature means that the implementation could not possibly be correct.
I had someone put a piece of paper on my car like that before
with "this is allocated to us, please don't park here again"
in a unmarked car spot in the middle of a complex
@sudorm-rfTelkitty answer with "all your base are belong to us"
not all ... some & not belong ... rented to
13:21
@AndyProwl he meant your avatar is a star fish :)
so it will be "some of your base is rented to us"
awesome, isn't it?
I think I would have gone with: "Take your pens, notes, requests, demands and fuck off with them to some private car park of your own".
@BartekBanachewicz Ah, right, now it makes sense ;)
@rightfold the thing is that SICP teach how to write code in term of data. Write functions that can be applied to multiple sets of data (higher order functions). OOP books that I read are barely trying to teach patterns like the Gang of four. Higher order functions are quite similar to inheritance for oop.
@BartekBanachewicz no, but if he is not only "fits the gap" in C++ but is a good C++ programmers, many "I know a bit of C++"-guys will consider him a star - if his job is C++ programming of course)
13:25
If I read SICP 10 years ago, I'd probably be a much better programmer
Trying to design a Class Pegasus with multiple inheritance of a Horse and a Bird didn't get me anywhere.
wish I'd picked that one
I'll try to stop now
@ArneMertz Unfortunately there are also many "I know a bit of C++"-guys that think higher of themselves than they should. So not only they don't see you as a teacher, but they make your life even harder. That happens to me at work quite often.
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix meh, just compose the characteristics you want. walk, fly, mythical.
It's like working in a team of Vlad from Moscowes
@LightnessRacesinOrbit If I had to guess, I'd say it's not just "a" head, but his own head.
13:31
@AndyProwl Run boy run
user1804599
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix irrelevant.
E.g. Me: "Public interfaces should be minimal" - Colleague: "I don't agree. I like the object.function() style because Intellisense and non-verb and meh so I'll put all functions that work on object in the Object class, I don't care if they don't need to see the private members".
Me: "Look, if you don't trust me then read this and this and this and then let's discuss it again". Colleague: "Sorry, I don't agree with Scott Meyers nor with any of the others. I think they're all wrong. I'll do it this way because I find it better". And so on and so forth.
Same story for naked for loops rather than algorithms
And unique pointers
And lambdas
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hi, you have been working with coroutine/asio quite lately, right? Do I remember right that it was for work? I am asking because I am looking for some examples besides the spare ones in the docs.
Well if your argument is "trust me" then no wonder he disregards it :v
My argument is not "trust me". Of course I do provide explanations, but they're hardly as authoritative as those provided by well-known authors.
13:35
Fuck authority, highlight problems
@bamboon Yeah, for work. We want to rewrite our asio code away from the callbacks, and I wrote this mind reader simulator as a testing ground for the coroutine support.
I didn't really use any docs besides the official ones, but you can ask me stuff if you want.
I do. They just don't see the problems.
Which may be because I do not explain the sufficiently well, so I point them to well-known authors.
But they refuse those as well on the grounds that "nobody can't tell me what's more readable for me and for (int i = 0; blah blah reads better than std::transform(" etc.
I'd suggest it's because they're terrible craftsman that follow the "it works" school.
That "ship it" business.
to an important extent
If you don't mind constantly creating shoddy work, you're a terrible craftsman. That's an objective statement.
13:38
what's more readable for you is irrelevant.
what matters is readability to the general programmer population.
@AndyProwl There are objective arguments in favour of algorithms against naked loops. Same for all the other issues you pointed out.
Also, what the puppy said.
I'm not saying that trading off readability for other advantages like performance or meeting a deadline can never be a viable or advantageous tradeoff
HOFs in stdlib are pretty terrible though
@DeadMG Exactly
but if you're not explicitly choosing that tradeoff, then you should aim for maximum overall readability.
13:39
Also, reading requires training. They don't want to invest energy in getting accustomed with how modern C++ reads.
@AndyProwl Isn't Sean Parent's talk enough to convince them? Only a madman will agree that the original code in his example is more readable than the refactored one.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I did send that link to everyone in my group. Nobody watched it AFAIK
@DeadMG Yeah, so, you missed the joke.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit No, I think it's funnier with that modification.
user1804599
Ordered it. :3
13:43
What?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah ok. Thanks for the offer, though I currently don't have anything in mind. Just exploring the patterns that come with it.
@AndyProwl well, then the knwoledge gap should not be that big ;)
Bad programmers are bad not because they write bad code, but because they can not comprehend there being a better way.
If you're curious, we greenlighted the rewrite all asio shit to coroutines yesterday.
@ArneMertz Right. Also, the attitude
13:47
erm... maybe @TonyTheLion should stick to programming
@R.MartinhoFernandes Cool. What is the general type of rewriting you did there? Is it basically just putting everything in one function that is boost::asio:spawned which was a chain of callbacks that call each other before?
WOW. That's nice.
Stackful or stackless? Or mixed?
@thecoshman "A lion broke my mirror, officer, I swear"
@DeadMG I think 50% of the joke is that the caption is pretending it's not his head, when in fact the original intent of the cartoon is that it obviously is.
well maybe this is just my poor eyesight but I'd only give about 50/50 that it is his head.
13:53
It's taking a very abstract image, and overlaying a wholly literal interpretation. I don't think a man can watch his own head being sawed in half through a window.
@CatPlusPlus "Right, and was this after you... drove to Kenya was it? Sir, do you mind stepping out the vehicle"
(The original image is obviously a "I have a headache" sign)
@bamboon Oh, not "did" yet. "Will do". I reported my experience with coroutines in a meeting yesterday, and we decided the rewrite will be worth it. For us what you describe will be a significant part of it, yes. During this, I'm also to investigate moving the GUI event loop into an asio strand, which would uniformize all callback-y stuff in our code.
"uniformize"?
you suck.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit My first response was 'I don't know anyone named Don'.
13:55
my vs broke
god damn it
@DeadMG Why?
Oh, is it the spelling?
@DeadMG ... what?
@BartekBanachewicz How surprising.
"uniformize" is not a word.
you might be looking for normalize or something.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Cannot open include file: 'stdlib.h': No such file or directory
13:56
Uniformaticate
@thecoshman "Is there a lion around, officer?"
> My solution was to uninstall it again, delete lingering files/folders in the VS 11.0 install directory, and delete registry keys for VS 11.0. Once I reinstalled, VS2012 was like new again
you have to be kidding me
@R.MartinhoFernandes "Sir. Step of the vehicle now!"
> Verb 1. uniformize - make uniform; "the data have been uniformized"
13:57
@AndyProwl ¬_¬ meh, american
Pretty standard derivation with -ize suffix
:v
@DeadMG Oh, I know that. It's not like "callback-y" is.
Callbackful
@thecoshman Sigh...
13:58
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh, I understood "greenlighted" in terms of tests ^^. Interested in which GUI framework you are using, seems like a big task to uniformize all that?
yes, but "callback-y" does not have available alternatives that are real words.
> Verb 1. uniformise - make uniform; "the data have been uniformized"
@AndyProwl Neither the OED nor MW agree, though.
@AndyProwl Oxford English Dictionary or no dice.
lol, the example is still AE
> uniformise - make uniform; "the data have been uniformized"
¬_¬ what ever
@R.MartinhoFernandes MW?
well so there goes my work done
@DeadMG Ah, OK. Thanks for the reference.
fucking amazing microsoft
@thecoshman Merriam-Webster. Opposite side of the pond.
13:59
making people unproductive because of your bullshit tools since ever
@R.MartinhoFernandes oooh, you mean "doesn't count"? :P
11
Q: Have I tattooed a syntax error on my arm?

spydonA few months ago I tattooed a fork bomb on my arm and I skipped the whitespace because I think it looks nicer without it. But to my dismay, sometimes(not always) when I run it in a shell it doesn't start a fork bomb but just gives a syntax error. bash: syntax error near unexpected token `{:' ...

8
@thecoshman No, I meant, even if that counts, the word isn't there.
It doesn't have to be in dictionary to be a real word, because derivation is a thing
14:00
English is not a uniform language in which you can take one derivation and apply it to anything, ever.
@BartekBanachewicz was that him trying to kiss a wallaby in that avatar of his?
@DeadMG That said, "normalise" doesn't really capture the intended meaning.
that's an illegal languagisation.
We're not after a normal form, we're just after some uniform one.
Btw OED doesn't seem to have "callback", so I guess some terms which are not part of the language officially can be used in some sectors.
14:01
@AndyProwl "callback" is technical jargon.
It has a well-defined meaning, that's all a word needs
Right. So "uniformize the data" could be as well, no?
Granted, it doesn't have a well-defined meaning
Sure it has
Follows -ize, ugh. It's fine and everyone knows what the fuck
I think I'll cut my hair
@BartekBanachewicz fool!
14:04
I wouldn't need to tie it up
@BartekBanachewicz lol, fail.
@BartekBanachewicz o_0 you don't any way...
@thecoshman I do. Otherwise it gets into my food and is annoying in general
Yeah. Long hair sucks.
@BartekBanachewicz phf, your doing it wrong
@R.MartinhoFernandes ... it totaly doesn't shed all over the place o_o
14:07
Apparently adding typeclasses to Fay is a hard job
@thecoshman Mine does.
ohhhhh fuck.
> Either a new one or try to re-use GHC's implementation. This is probably a really big project though so I'm not sure how likely it is to happen.
that's how that function had that interface.
woops.
time to roll back.
@R.MartinhoFernandes ... you didn't have long hair in those photos...
14:08
Yet it was long enough to be annoying.
@R.MartinhoFernandes wrong. It was not long enough to not be annoying
Long hair is annoying hair
your hair is annoying hair
BALLS.
I accidentally reverted a file I shouldn't have done.
oh well.
@thecoshman relevant youtube.com/watch?v=ZnjLlWa5Ieg
need a gif version
14:31
didn't meant to scare you
TIL: according to Kerberos, a username may contain tabs. And newlines. And null characters. And... backspace...
But not @, unless it is escaped!
well if its a username that make sense, you cannot have a mail username with @ in it
huh.
just for once, LLVM issued an error that actually revealed a bug in my code.
SAM
SAM
Morning guys...!
14:37
Almost evening here
SAM
SAM
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Good evening then... btw here too is eve :)
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix but a null character make sense?
No the newlines and null chars are quite weird
anything about unicode chars or anything not ascii?
@thecoshman Why not? It's your problem to type that
14:43
@CatPlusPlus would you not normally take null as end of string?
No, why would I
NUL-termination is silly and error-prone
Allowing nulls in usernames is a bad idea, nonetheless.
If your software sucks :v
14:44
Erm, no.
You probably don't want to touch Kerberos either way
It's an issue with humans.
Well, they don't exactly add any meaning to a username.
User's problem
@LightnessRacesinOrbit wat?
14:45
@DeadMG give it a moment
@DeadMG "you too"
@CatPlusPlus SEPing this doesn't make it any more of a good idea.
I now have much better understanding of differencies between GHCJS, Fay and Haste
14:46
it feels like @lightness has just discovered there is funny stuff on the internet
3
@BartekBanachewicz collectively known as?
@CatPlusPlus Does the fact that you can't put a username with a null character inside it in an std::string count as "your software sucks"?
Bad focus! Sit!
@thecoshman Haskell -> JS compilers
@AndyProwl Uh why wouldn't you be able to do that
@AndyProwl You can.
14:47
std::string is not NUL-terminated nonsense
Also yes
If your string type does that, then yes
But how do you initialize it from a string literal that is not null-terminated?
that's a completely different question.
Usernames are not string literals dummy
With the appropriate constructor?
also all string literals are null terminated.
14:48
You don't have user names in literals anyway.
Also with explicit size
@BartekBanachewicz oooh, woah, that's a lot of crap for me to not care about
OK, I see my suckage
@thecoshman oh right I forgot you write in Java
@R.MartinhoFernandes so what is '2' the password to?
14:48
Also C or C++ being broken is not a good reason to forbid something in a general protocol
@thecoshman KSP action group to deploy antennas.
Cat, what's the argument for inclusion of nulls in user names?
@BartekBanachewicz yeah, someone has to keep enterprises ticking over :'(
@SamDeHaan Wrong question.
@AndyProwl There is no such thing as a string literal that is not null-terminated.
14:49
@R.MartinhoFernandes I has you monies!
@thecoshman good thing it's not me
That is a restriction of string literals, not of std::string.
@SamDeHaan Unless you provide a well-justified starting set there is no such thing as "inclusion".
@SamDeHaan Because Unicode includes it
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yeah, I realized that. What I meant is "array of characters that contains '\0' in the middle of it"
But I see the whole point
14:50
@CatPlusPlus Unicode also recommends against it in usernames, though.
"Every Unicode character in existence should be a valid username character" is short-sighted as fuck
Well yeah I probably wouldn't do that, but still
@AndyProwl Use the std::string::string(const char*, size_t) overload :)
@LightnessRacesinOrbit 'Unicode character'
@thecoshman codepoint
wtfever
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Right, robot suggested that as well
@R.MartinhoFernandes I see your point. I also don't want to place any effort towards defining a good starting set, so I will retire a failure at participation in this discussion.
utf-8 codepoint?
call it whatever you want
14:51
i reinstalled VS
utf-16 will be wchar_t
You don't restrict shit on encoding level
with cleaning all the bullshit from registry
SAM
SAM
wstring..?
still doesn't work
14:51
Also no, wchar_t is just crap
Forget it even exists
@BartekBanachewicz have you tried turning it off and back on again? That's all I've got.
codepoint is the thing like "an English U", "A pair of float dots over that previous doofer" "now write right to left"
@thecoshman I think "Unicode character" is unambiguous enough. Unicode calls them "characters" after all. Code points are numbers. /cc @Lightness
aha yeah knowing that wchar_t size changes on windows and unix(osx, linux...)
Codepoint is a number that uniquely identifies a bunch of attributes that a character consist of :v
14:52
wait... that was meant to be a question back there! is it right though?
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix That one would be flat-out wrong.
We always go back to Unicode
wchar_t is 4 bytes on linux and 2 bytes on windows (if my memory is right)
It should be on wiki or something
14:55
> To workaround this issue, I copied the contents of C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 11.0\VC from another machine with VS2012 installed to the same same folder on my machine. There were a lot of .lib's and source files that were missing.
FOR FUCKS SAKE FUCKING BULLSHIT
GOD FUCKING CURSE THIS PIECE OF USELESS CRAP
hihih
Whatchya doing
@CatPlusPlus trying to install an integrated development environment.
And what's the problem
SAM
SAM
rrr
14:57
@CatPlusPlus installer doesn't copy standard library headers to the include folder
Purge MSI data
> In case you have another computer with a ok installation os VS2012, copy the include and lib folders manually. This fixed the issue here. It is a ridiculous to have to do this, but at least you have a workaround.
@BartekBanachewicz I recently had issues with VS2012, if you install some patches to windows, windows seems to randomly delete things. After installing VS if you go in add/remove software there should be an option to repair VS
It probably keeps those components as already installed or somethin
14:57
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I can't handle the complexity of that paragraph.
The repair utility will recopy missing files from your "visual studio installation disk"
@CatPlusPlus what msi I should point it to?
Get VS2012 product UUID
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix let's try that

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