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17:00
@ThePhD I've never asked anyone to delete comments on a thread that I had absolutely nothing to do with!
user3010322
UH-HUUUUUUUUUUH
user3010322
A Liiiiiiiiiiikely story.
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Technically, her real pet name was Sisi.
@R.MartinhoFernandes dem titties
17:01
@Mat: I think I'd still have hoped for ill-formity there, and let SFINAE open up other options. If nothing else though it just makes this really horrid for non-template code. :( — Lightness Races in Orbit 31 secs ago
No it doesn't, it's great.
@ThePhD Technically, it's not anymore.
user3010322
!!!
user3010322
std::tuple<std::array<string_t arg_count>, std::array<string_t&, arg_count>> !!!
user3010322
It just might wor- oh... wait.
user3010322
.... q___________________________q
user1804599
17:03
WTF dude.
user3010322
Listen.
user3010322
Rightfold, listen. This is important.
user1804599
user3010322
I'm trying to make it work.
17:03
seriously what the fuck
Use stringstream you noob
It solves this problem for you
user3010322
@Rapptz You can't make me. ;~;
user1804599
If you are writing code that has already been written, you are duplicating code.
user1804599
And duplicated code is bad.
what is wrong with you
17:04
How bad do you have to be to write this?
user1804599
@Rapptz ThePhD.
user3010322
Very bad.
@rightfold lol
user3010322
It's like fire
user3010322
shed up in my bones.
17:05
that's not bad enough
So, why aren't you using stringstream?
You keep dodging the question
We need an intervention.
intervention guys?
user1804599
Can I use Boost.Preprocessor in C and Haskell?
Or does it use C++-specific features?
user1804599
Ah, apparently C is supported.
17:07
@rightfold I think all it requires is C99
Is it starfest yet?
Mike's being a cock today
user3010322
@Rapptz I'm not using string stream because I don't like Streams.
user3010322
And that's basically it.
Jesus Christ man.
Do you always let religious reasons get in the way of what you code?
2
user3010322
17:08
Also, if I include streams now, then <iostreams> will be included for the whole library.
user3010322
I dun wanna. u.u
user3010322
I beat windows.h and d3d11.h
user3010322
stringstream can't stop me!
@ThePhD FYI, it's <sstream>. Not <iostream>
@Rapptz I love the use of "Jesus Christ" as an interjection to berate him for being religious in his code.
17:09
eheh
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
who is starring all this garbage :(
10
@R.MartinhoFernandes Clearly, in this instance, he is "Jesus Christ Man".
@Rapptz Someone awaiting the Rapptzure
user3010322
Comma Police Tomalak.
user3010322
! I see a way out of this.
user3010322
I will use 2 arrays
17:11
this time tomorrow I shall have 98.8k repzzzzzzzzzzz
"2 arrays". "stringstream". Not a match.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit unless we launch a down-boat attack
@ScarletAmaranth then it shall be reversed by the SYSTAM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit why would it be? there are plenty people in this room, the SYSTAM shan't notice
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes u.u Come onnn, I don't need StringStream!
17:12
@ThePhD Of course not. We're talking about it ending your current stoppage. Quite the opposite of stopping you.
@Rapptz almost has the entire starboard
I can remove stars!
we need 2 more stars
A useless power.
say something funny please
17:13
No.
what is happening!!!
Useless power.
@ScarletAmaranth I suppose if you spread the load then it wouldn't be seen as serial downvoting
You'd be better off delete-voting things
user3010322
Fine, you all win.
user3010322
I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY.
17:14
We're not.
It took what? the whole day to realise this?
Pretty much
user3010322
I only spent like 45 minutes on it.
user3010322
Gosh.
My ass.
That's such a ridiculous claim that I won't even bother using the transcript as proof.
user3010322
I was cleaning my Format implementation. I still cleaned it without stringstream or optimizations. >.>
user3010322
The optimization part just bugged me. For a long time. It's not like I'm not doing anything else!
@R.MartinhoFernandes "My ass" is rather spurious
user3010322
I've also gone through and replaced all uses of lexical cast and fixed a bunch of my very old headers. :c
Time to find a random header to pick on
17:17
> Rust is not widely used in industry (yet), so it is disadvantageous to students compared to gaining experience using a commonly used language like C.
>
> I view this as a minor reason, since I don't think its really the mission of a university CS curriculum to prepare students with particular job skills3, but many people bring this up so it is worth discussing. One of the problems with this view is it leads to a circle of inertia: industry uses C/Java for programming projects because that's what their current team knows and it is easy to hire C/Java programmers, and universities train C/J
user3010322
@Rapptz Not in my cod,e right?
Who elses?
user3010322
Your own!!
I agree, for the parallel reason that this guy is supposed to be teaching programming, not instilling shitty C or shitty C++ or shitty Java mantrae into the muscle memory of undergrads
user3010322
You have a TCG to write! Gosh!
17:18
Oh man. This colour code
user3010322
FWIW, it's technically @Rapptz's fault.
Student feedback:
> Rust documentation is god awful. The web server portion of this assignment should've taken me all of three minutes, instead I spent 1.5 hrs trying to use undocumented methods. It would be nice if you could provide us with some common code snippits like reading files for instance. That is not something I should have to spend 20 minutes trying to figure out.
user3010322
That's I stopped using string stream.
^ Good. This is gaining real world experience.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You agree with what? That part, the whole article, or the premise Rust should be used instead of (C, or C++ in my case) for the OS course?
user3010322
17:19
Because my previous lexical_cast implementation used std::istringstream by default. >.>
Maybe this little punk will figure out that he can't rush through life expecting to do everything in 30 seconds flat
Your lexical_cast sucked
@BenjaminGruenbaum All three, really. But I meant that part.
Because we're seriously discussing this now (for the Hebrew University) - allowing Rust in addition to C++
user3010322
u.u if you say so.
17:19
constructing a stringstream is slow
btw, why do you need floats for colours?
doesn't make much sense to me
user3010322
Because all graphics implementations in the world use floats as the default specifiers for colors.
why
user3010322
OpenGL takes float* D3D takes float*, it's all about the float.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I can't even start talking about how bad some of the people who teach programming are in universities here. The problem is, you can't really get good ones because they want to do more interesting things on the outside.
user3010322
For shaders and stuff, they're more lenient, but the API facing C++ is mostly Float, Float, and Float.
17:21
@BenjaminGruenbaum Bullshit.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Please, offer advice then. It's a real problem.
s/want to do more interesting things on the outside/are lazy selfish bastards/
You're lazy and selfish if you don't want to spend your time teaching programming in the university but want to work on a project on the outside instead?
user3010322
If a university asked me to do a course, it would come down to are the benefits good and can it feed my family.
user3010322
If I can't answer these two questions with "yes", it's probably not something I want to devote my time to. <.>
17:22
I see glColor3b(GLByte, GLByte, GLByte) hm
@BenjaminGruenbaum You're lazy and selfish if you take that task upon you and just coast through it.
user3010322
@Rapptz Filthy lies and slander.
it was the first result on google for "OpenGL colours"
try it out
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh, agreed. I never argued against that statement hence I don't understand "Bullshit."
user3010322
@Rapptz I know it's there, but most things are floooats.
17:23
I see one float
glColor3f
in fact there's glColor for all types
which is weird
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yeah. Some people from SO would be fantastic teachers but they're too busy on SO.
I had a 60-year old teacher that did zillions of stuff on the outside, and yet still taught incredibly well. Everyone loved him, and everyone wanted him for their <what do you call the guy that oversees your theses and whatnot?> as he still took lots of them for <what do you call the guy that oversees your theses and whatnot?>ees and everyone still said he was great. The only bad thing everyone agreed about him was that he was consistently late to everything.
@R.MartinhoFernandes supervisor
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Lab PI, if it's research.
17:26
@LightnessRacesinOrbit The two good courses we have in programming here that originated from the Hebrew university. Both of the guys who came up with those courses are too busy working outside and are not teaching them anymore :/
"My name is Lab P.I. You say you think your husband is cheating on you? I can find out."
"Hello, Miss Petri. My name is Lab P.I. You say you think your Erlenmeyer is cheating on you? I can find out."
FTFY
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh we have those , in fact I have one just like that that'll likely be my alma mater once I decide on the thesis (next year), but they're very rare and they almost never teach coding.
user3010322
geek
I find it interesting (to say the least) that his single biggest argument against C seems to be the use of = instead of something like := for assignment.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Now improved!
@JerryCoffin yeah, it was a really silly argument in that article... "C is unacceptable! it uses = to assign!"
@JerryCoffin his?
@JerryCoffin lol, how some people hold on to these tiny details and use them as huge blinders against everything else.
17:28
@Jefffrey The author of the article Benjamin cited above.
@JerryCoffin Funny enough (?) Rust uses = for assignment too.
@JerryCoffin surely you know all the real arguments against C, and I'd like to think readers, at least those who actually did an OS course in C also know them.
@R.MartinhoFernandes -.-
Fuck.
Should be Mrs.
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes "Oh thank you, Lab P.I.! I've seen the way Beaker gets close to him, taunting him with her burning Bunsens! I know he has a weakness for it, but he promised that I'd be the only thing he'd ever pour into!"
17:30
I think the point was more an argument against teaching programming in C, not an argument against C itself. There are subtle and not-so-subtle differences between the two.
@BenjaminGruenbaum I did a course in OS, and it sucked, but not because of C, but because of low quality of the course ;)
I can't believe C uses == for equality. We should use === like JavaScript.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit /s/programming/_systems_ programming/
@ThePhD It's "Bunsen".
@BenjaminGruenbaum yeah
17:30
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'm not sure I know all the arguments against C, but I know enough that it wouldn't be my first choice.
Why the fuck do I know this.
any programming
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Plural, like buns.
@Rapptz fun fact, they wanted to fix that and Microsoft said no :P
user3010322
It was a play on words. Probably a bad one, though. :c
17:31
god I can't imagine fucking about with string buffers all the time. strcat yuehouhg
No, wait, Miss is better.
If it was Mrs., it would be Mrs. Erlenmeyer.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why?
They're not married yet!
@ThePhD The plural is Bunsen burner(s).
user3010322
17:31
@Rapptz It's play on words!!
@ThePhD And Beaker is not a proper name.
fuck your play on words. Lab is serious business.
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes It totally is :c
user3010322
@Rapptz Lab is fun~
Bunsen burners were fun
17:32
@ScarletAmaranth all/most of the people who teach systems coding here are Linux kernel contributors. For the very least it means they care , but for the record they're also pretty good. I think the actual level of knowledge of the teachers is acceptable (at least when I took it), the problem is probably more with the TAs, assignments and graders.
it seemed we'd always have the kid who would want to stick his hand there
user3010322
(It was @Rapptz).
Not I.
@R.MartinhoFernandes It is kind of amazing, at least to me. Somebody teaching an OS development course (or, worse, designing one) should have enough grasp of abstraction to have gotten past trivialities like the exact way operator X happens to be spelled.
@JerryCoffin it's not
> More important problems with C for teaching an OS course are its lack of type safety and memory safety, and its lack of any intrinsic support for concurrency.
17:35
@BenjaminGruenbaum no, the problem is that most if not ALL unis require you to memorize a lot of crap nobody gives a flying shit about, quite literally wasting your time
Use C#, build a Singularity clone.
@Jefffrey that's actually usually an assignment in OS courses I know, to implement a threading library.
@ScarletAmaranth such as?
user3010322
grumbles.
@Jefffrey And yet he spends 2 full paragraphs on = and the others each get no more than a part of one sentence.
user3010322
Well.... Format works
17:36
@BenjaminGruenbaum Cue his
user3010322
It converts more things to strings than I would like, but it... works.
user3010322
For now...
@JerryCoffin Maybe he's just terrible at writing.
@ThePhD I thought you were using stringstream now
user3010322
17:37
Is := really so much a better idiom than =
user3010322
@Rapptz >.> Maybe.
it's better than x :=: y
@JerryCoffin and since when the number of characters, spent talking about a topic, matters?
@BenjaminGruenbaum let's see, random "EE-related" paragraphs about what the law says about acceptable values of <something> under <some conditions> <somewhere>?
@Jefffrey Since ever?
17:37
No.
Yes.
Do you even read?
@ScarletAmaranth really? We never had any of those in CS.
@BenjaminGruenbaum good for you
17:38
It's what you say that matters. Not that a paragraph is long 12 lines.
@ScarletAmaranth you had to study law in your CS degree?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Maybe -- then again, perhaps he's aware that things like support for concurrency quickly become a chicken and egg problem. In fact, support for concurrency is a large part of what should be taught in an OS class. Starting with it as a given means you're no longer even attempting to teach OS design at all.
@Jefffrey What you say includes how you say it.
I can rumble for a whole book and say nothing.
I can see how someone might fall in the trap of attributing a disproportional amount of prose to unimportant subjects, but I fail to understand how someone reading it would not notice how that is a mistake.
17:40
It is a mistake. That was not the point.
@BenjaminGruenbaum no, I had to do some EE-classes that had this shit in them, and of course there's ton of crap BS memorizing in CS courses as well, such as "what constructors does some random API method have", well fuck
@Jefffrey That was the point.
@JerryCoffin The fact you have X built into language Y does not imply you can't re-implement X in language Y for the exercise?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Since I am the one that was trying to make the point: no, it was not.
Mentioning something in passing diminishes its importance.
Attributing a lot of prose to something increases its importance.
17:41
I do find it odd how he rules out C++ instantly.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not always.
link to this article?
Doesn't even mention it as an alternative.
@Rapptz that too. We use C++ here (and not C).
@Jefffrey Give example.
17:41
25 mins ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
http://rust-class.org/pages/using-rust-for-an-undergraduate-os-course.html opinions?
It just means that a topic requires more characters to be discussed.+
Make it non-artistic.
@BenjaminGruenbaum No, of course it doesn't imply you can't do so -- but the fact that he considers its omission important indicates that he intends to use those intrinsics rather than implement them separately.
To anyone who advised. I have to say that I'm really enjoying ReSharper with C++ support, it still has many rough edges but thanks for the advice it's very pleasant.
@BenjaminGruenbaum Wonder why he didn't mention it.
17:42
@Jefffrey That tends to be the case for important topics. Unimportant topics might require as many characters to discuss as the characters needed to state how we won't dwell on it due to its unimportance.
@R.MartinhoFernandes If a concept is hard to explain you'll spend more characters trying to explain it. That doesn't mean the concept is more important than the 3 line conclusion at the end.
He even listed Python as an alternative to implement an OS.. but not C++.
(That's clearly not the case here)
If a concept is unimportant and hard to explain you should just dismiss it.
@Rapptz My personal experience is that people who like and know C and Rust but dislike C++ are not very aware of the difference between modern C++ and C++ 15 years ago - it's C with classes to them.
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's why I said "Not always." and not "Never."
17:43
It's not about the inherent importance of it.
It's about the perceived importance.
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yet C++ is still a big stinking mess
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes, ok. Again, this doesn't mean the author think that's important.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit of course it is, no argument there.
17:44
we should make a "What do you dislike about C++" box/poll thing
@Rapptz I thought that was the point of the lounge
2
Well, I meant in a more organised form.
I agree.
@Jefffrey Well, you started by putting into question the idea that the amount of prose attributed to a topic matters.
the guy goes on and on about = vs :=, and then glosses over the "poor concurrency support" thing.
17:47
@Jefffrey What would be difficult about: "Problems with C include use of = for assignment, omission of intrinsic concurrency support..."? I would posit that he spends time on that subject simply because, even though his argument is weak in this case, his arguments to support the other cases would almost certainly be substantially weaker still.
@R.MartinhoFernandes No. The point was: Jerry was implying that the most important drawback of C, for the author of the post, was the = operator. And what I said was: It's not true, as he states in the post itself. And then Jerry said the post was long, implying that that meant the topic was more important than anything else in the post, again, for the author.
and the glaring omission of any consideration of C++ is a large problem.
@DeadMG Wondering, would you give a C++ course to students who do not know C++ at all?
I don't know why people would be taking an OS class and learning a new language at the same time
Does that really happen? If so, it doesn't sound well planned out regardless of language used.
@JerryCoffin Because he was also trying to explain what were the goals of Ritchie and co. back then. And the example of the saved byte for = was important for the talk (for the author).
17:50
@Rapptz maybe just a GitHub repo with a textfile?
Usually Sometimes examples take more characters than the idea behind them.
@Rapptz then again most CS students don't really know any language anyway.
@Rapptz That is horrible. It was effectively how it worked in my OS class, even though there was a class where one was supposed to learn C the year before.
It doesn't mean they are important (or perceived important by everybody, for that matter).
@JohanLarsson maybe, sounds annoying to do a PR though. Even though the web-editor makes it easier.
17:52
pr?
pull request
give everybody write?
@R.MartinhoFernandes I know what you mean, when I helped in the C++ class last year they were supposed to have a C pre-requisite but many of them didn't know how to write basic loops.
17:53
Thanks for the discussion everyone. I'm off.
@Jefffrey I suppose that may be (arguably) reasonable, at least if it wasn't just pure bullshit. I don't remember if it's in "Why Pascal is not my Favorite Programming Language", or a different article, but in fact the selection of = was explained a long time ago, and had nothing to do with saving bytes in the source code. The simple fact is that they found that both for themselves and people learning C, that it was easier to use = for assignment and something special for comparison.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh wow. Mediawiki lol
In short, rather than attempting to explain what really happened or why, he's trying to reinvent history to suit his own argument.
so much better
I have to request an account :v
@JerryCoffin I don't know anything about that, but that's irrelevant for the discussion we were having about number of characters <-> importance.
17:54
Why is it asking me for my resume
lmao
So random
@Rapptz Yeah, I did that job in that class. I even set up a blog where I did a weekly write-up of how to do the class exercises, including digressions into necessary C knowledge.
@Rapptz Ask Cat.
To protect the wiki against automated account creation, we kindly ask you to solve the simple sum below and enter the answer in the box (more info):
32−2
basic sum eh?
you're summing a positive and a negative number, np ;)
@Rapptz Algebraic sum!
the sum of maths knowledge in the group of people who wrote that captcha is 30
17:57
so the create account function doesn't work and I just need to ping Cat?
Whenever I write "algebraic" I have an urge to write "abrahamic".
apparently
I wonder why does youtube keep logging me off, to ask me if I want to use the Google+ account, every time I log back in.
cos Google
it goggles the mind
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yes.

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