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14:00
@TonyTheLion no, it's just "either Cat is right or everyone run away"
most of the time, at least.
No
But w/e
see I disagreed now we're fucked
run!
@BartekBanachewicz I bet he says the same about you. Interesting.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't care what that particular person says about me
14:02
That's part of the problem Tony was talking about.
Please do and before you come back, reread the thing where I attack your ridiculous method of evaluation and not the evaluation itself
@CatPlusPlus my method of evaluation is pretty straightforward. I pick a library and a languge and try reimplementing my stuff in it.
Maybe your stuff is the problem :P
Xeo
Xeo
22 mins ago, by Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes He's been getting worse and worse over the last few weeks. :|
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well it's rather obvious that I'm looking for a technology for a project.
what should I do, the opposite?
No you should try to see the other persons view and see if perhaps they are making a point
and not just react blindly
@TonyTheLion bah, I'm always doing that.
@BartekBanachewicz You should stop taking everything so serious and so personal, especially if there's a :P at the end.
14:05
Maybe write some code with the picked language/library instead of looking at examples and complaining that they're not using latest newest OpenGL version
@BartekBanachewicz erm, evidence suggests otherwise.
@R.MartinhoFernandes maybe I would if I didn't feel attacked constantly by someone here.
Maybe if you would, you wouldn't feel attacked constantly
5 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@TonyTheLion no, it's just "either Cat is right or everyone run away"
That's the point, you're not looking at the Cat's view in this very case
You're just rigidly sticking to your own side
and so the argument never ends
damnit
14:07
but I am not particularly interested in arguing with him
Why am I even interfering in this? Urgh
I want to find something that would fit me, and his only input is "use C#".
It was a suggestion
doesn't mean you have to go by it. Jezus
he called it an attack himself
so yeah.
> use C#
14:08
Basic English
Basic logic
doesn't sound like an attack.
It's all I ask for
But yeah whatever, I'm not interested in discussing anything that way either
47 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
7 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
then don't. Go back to the basement.
not sure if that's basic english enough
I can win any argument with brand new, state-of-the-art AdHomineminator 3000 (TM)!
3
apparently not.
14:10
ohhh fancy
either way, all those C# thingies for OGL are just raw wrappers
Get yours now, for only 999.99€ + VAT
@BartekBanachewicz use C#
(free shipping)
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Where Poles collide... [c++] [c++11] [c++1y] [no-gotchas] [no-questions] [no-tricks]
14:11
so they are not very useful, because there's a lot of hassle and minimal gain
Also probably dynamic code loading would be awfully limited and/or hard.
See, that's a good evaluation of a library
@CatPlusPlus Insults are not ad hominem arguments. They're just insults. An ad hominem argument implies you're trying to argue something.
(Not a language still)
Bah of course C# is a great language, but I don't see it as a good fit for my project.
How is TypeScript treating you @BartekBanachewicz?
14:12
Ad hominem arguments are not really as common as they seem to be. People that resort to insults don't often have what it takes to build an argument out of that.
Maybe
This shit never makes any sense
@Pawnguy7 rather well, but I found lack of type aliases rather bad.
But hey it'd be a great brand name
@BartekBanachewicz Can't you just foo = bar, like in JS?
Given that types are just functions anyway...
14:15
Eh, I have a lab in an hour
I need a nap
Xeo
Xeo
I want a lab coat.
So, you're up for that parser thing @Cat? (Not pressuring you, just making sure I can not-deal with it myself)
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yup
14:17
not sure if I've posted this before
class Foo {
}

// Valid since a class introduces a Type AND and Variable
var bar = Foo;

// Invalid since var introduces only a variable so bar cannot be used as a type
// Error: Could not find symbol. Since compiler searched the type declaration space
var baz: bar;

// Valid for obvious reasons
var x: Foo;
@R.MartinhoFernandes ^
that looks awfully like bad language design
well.
Ahahaha how did I miss this eff.org/deeplinks/2012/10/…
@CatPlusPlus Do you use nose or unittest?
unittest2
@CatPlusPlus everyone is good at security
14:23
lol
It's not security-related, it's just money grabbing
Fuck Ubuntu
Fuckbuntu
@CatPlusPlus Ubuntu is evil.
Linux distro for porn
Fubaruntu
14:24
@GamesBrainiac Well, unittest, since unittest2 is backport to older crap
@TonyTheLion 'fraid you did. Have to wonder why you'd admit to it if you had though. Given that I'm at least twice your age, I hate to think how many times older than you my mom would be...
@CatPlusPlus Yea, I figured as much
@TonyTheLion That posts every search on your Twitter
@CatPlusPlus That sounds great.
Must have
14:26
@JerryCoffin hahhaah
@CatPlusPlus lol
@JerryCoffin no kink shaming
actually, sounds like a fun little project
auto tweet every google search made to some anonymous twitter account
be fun to reflect on what you searched for
eh, I think I'll stick to TS for now
maybe they will miraculously release new version soon
miracles don't happen in this industry
@TonyTheLion fappuntu
14:28
@TonyTheLion hm, I dunno, 0.9 actually added Generics
@CatPlusPlus Not shaming, just expressing my surprise. If he's really into old women, so be it (and no, I don't think my mom would be upset of she saw me calling her "old" -- she quite openly states that she's an "old lady").
@JerryCoffin That was a tbmurl joke
Some kings did really strange things to preserve their line...
oh gawd
what have I done here? :/
And now the thread is about incest
Congrats
14:30
also my current UI is awesome
Bootstrap
This is the canvas, correct?
Never not Bootstrap
@CatPlusPlus usure?
I will cry and rant if it happens to be not good. (and if I don't get the syntax I want)
I don't care, you will use Bootstrap and you will like it, dammit
14:31
aight.
I was going to leave it for later
@Pawnguy7 +WebGL
I am going to guess the text is canvas?
user1804599
Lounge<Chat> uses Bootstrap. :D
Lounge<Chat> is dead, isn't it?
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's in Kyrostatsis.
@Pawnguy7 text is HTML
user1804599
14:33
@R.MartinhoFernandes October 28 was last commit, so I guess so.
I am not good at those things.
@Pawnguy7 it has like 20 lines
I have canvas tunnel vision or something.
14:34
too much SFML
If I see a canvas, I assume everything is canvas :\
Now I've switched to this room and Firefox rendering broke!
#sidebar {
    position: absolute;
    width: 300px;
    height: 80%;
    right: 10px;
    top: 0px;

    background-color: #63b7d3;

    padding: 15px;
}
@BartekBanachewicz as opposed to?
so #hard
@Pawnguy7 anything else, really.
14:36
Far as I know, it is a desktop-vs-web situation.
Or possible some GUI where you draw your own element.
Never done that though.
Xeo
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus I had that yesterday with the Kerbal room
Anyway, all I can remember for positioning was that I could never get it quite how I wanted it.
@BartekBanachewicz whats with the new avatar ?
I find HTML striking right balance between "easy to set up" and "powerful"
@A.H. hm?
wait you are another bartek !
man, why is there no new Battlestar Galactica stuff.
@Pawnguy7 People usually mis-write CSS
Well.
I mean they try to do random things in order to get something look ok
Unless you use.. was it static? or absolute positioning, things depend on other things.
I probably did that, yes.
14:39
@Pawnguy7 and it's up to you to create reasonable WYSIWYM pages
Reminds me of scripting languages, and I am a bit scared to go back.
like with Flexbox and stuff
@Pawnguy7 going from C++ is hardly going back
I was there once.
Albiet briefly.
First impression are everything :D
14:40
actually no, they are not.
Well.
How about this.
If some type of person was cruel to you as a child.
Do you still not be wary of them?
dude.
that's like completely different
Somewhat but not entirely.
Anyway, I didn't get much success back then.
I thought your main problems with programming were the ones related to design.
I thought my dislike of scripting languages was pretty clear.
Also, I am skeptical that web and code design belong in the same sentence.
My point is.
These things probably are not as bad as I remember them.
14:45
@Pawnguy7 what
hello
how is web coding different from desktop coding really
Well.
you use a different language and a different library, but the main concepts are the same
the primary difference is that web coding is for the web, and desktop coding is for desktop
2
14:45
@TonyTheLion thanks Tony
What I remember from the web is as you said, people do whatever they can to hack it together.
@BartekBanachewicz as someone said it before in this room: web coding induces a lot of accidental complexity
@Pawnguy7 they are dumb.
@BartekBanachewicz You're welcome
Well, they have to use JS. I cannot really blame them.
14:46
I can. People write Monads in JS
@BartekBanachewicz Yes one should apply the same development techniques to both. Of course the technologies involved will differ.
the language isn't that bad
@BartekBanachewicz It's satisfactory. Has the pitfalls of dynamic typing and crappy scope binding but nothing particularly awful that doesn't come with the paradigm already
@LightnessRacesinOrbit yeah. And the attitude that "web can be hacked into webpage by 12yo for $10" is one of the reasons why web is so terrible
@Xeo what for? some kind of cosplay?
14:47
@BartekBanachewicz always the same answer for this ;)
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, that's just a low-barrier-to-entry thing. Web scripting is quicker and cheaper than desktop programming.
Or at least it can be
Xeo
Xeo
@Abyx No, just because they're awesome.
As I said, I probably remember these things for worse then they are.
lol at that guy "Smart Man"
evidently not so Smart
14:49
@Pawnguy7 you have to dig into transciprt
@LightnessRacesinOrbit :D yeah I was contemplating his nickname also ;0
@Xeo you know nurse outfit is way more awesome. you should try it
lol, he was here again. impressive patience by R.MartinhoFernandes, hopefully it won't be totally in vain
So, do you use absolute positioning?
Well, when I write a program in C++, I don't need to use any other languages. And it works pretty well. — Forivin 8 hours ago
14:57
@BoltClock First time I see the "website" tag.
@Pawnguy7 well where it makes sense yeah.
What happens when you resize the window?
It shrinks.
Hrm.
My current plan is to finish Snake.
Theoretically OpenGL after that, but I am not getting my hopes up that will succeed.
@StackedCrooked or grows ;0
15:08
@BartekBanachewicz were you saying, understanding of the pipeline is not... required, persay?
@Pawnguy7 When will it be finished?
That is, I could get by somewhat?
@StackedCrooked when I find or make time to work on it, but I am a bit behind.
It is mostly workable for singleplayer.
@BoltClock haha, gets better.
In C++ I can at least do what html, css and javascript would do and probably also what flash is doing. — Forivin 7 hours ago
I think you could create a pretty strong and much easier language if you invest enough time. The only problem is people got already used to html/css/javascript and probably don't really want to learn a new language — Forivin 4 mins ago
15:10
home-grown psychology applied in programming, I love it ;0
They sort of have a point.
There are many, many web technologies.
I don't know how you would merge them though.
Yes, and we tried this very secure arbitrary binary execution before in the form of Java
@minitech Erm what
That's... wrong?
Applets. All websites are built with them now because it was so great and had no vulnerabilities
@minitech The vulnerabilities were related to the VM implementations.
15:12
@CatPlusPlus 99% of privacy concerns are porn.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don’t think you read that right, I said there were no vulnerabilities.
@minitech I don't think you wrote that right. Java doesn't provide arbitrary execution of binaries.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sun did push that idea, and he's right: it never went much of anywhere. Security wasn't (even close to) the only problem either. Despite the "write once, run anywhere" claims, getting Java to work correctly across multiple browsers (even on the same OS) was exceptionally painful.
@minitech s/are/were/ ?
@StackedCrooked </sarcasm>
15:15
@StackedCrooked I think he's pointing to the fact that according to Sun's advertising, by now it's supposed to have taken over the world.
I don't understand the mixing of present and past tense.
@R.MartinhoFernandes It was supposed to be sandboxed, sure. That didn’t work out, but I’m also pointing to the fact that there is no content there until it’s programmatically created…
I guess I'm slow today.
Isn't Flash theoretically dying?
theoretically dying?
15:16
… which is an enormous mistake. The content is supposed to be there. And we’re kind of repeating that mistake in AngularJS and all of those fancy things IMO.
@StackedCrooked In the world according to Sun all web development is now done in Java, because it's so vastly superior to existing techologies, and HotJava is so vastly superior to the "Mosaic generation browsers" like IE, FireFox and Chrome.
2
@minitech And I'm pointing out the fact that it's a strawman.
What’s HotJava?
And I hate it when I have to attack the arguments of the people on my side.
It’s not a strawman! You can’t meaningfully represent a page with an arbitrary binary.
One that needs to be executed, that is
15:18
@minitech Follow the link. Sun's browser that was intended primarily as an Applet host rather than primarily HTML display engine.
Long dead, of course.
@StackedCrooked I heard HTML5 still has some issues or instability, with sound for example
@Pawnguy7 As in some browsers (well, most, in a way) not supporting the Audio API?
;0 SmartMan is back in C# room
@minitech I don't know the API or situation in depth, but that sounds right.
@Pawnguy7 Firefox just got it in its nightly, I think.
Proprietary protocols?
I don't understand why they used this as a selling point.
No, it’s a selling point that instead of having A and B, you can now have A and B! And HotJava!
In the same browser or something. I don’t know, I haven’t been around long enough.
Going back to the original question, here's how I see things: most web development is done with DSLs. Each has a narrow enough set of capabilities that you need lots of them to get all the capabilities you need to build a complete application.
@JerryCoffin well stated
15:26
I remember back in 1999 the profs at university seems euphoric about Java.
some guy in C# room is convincing me that he wrote a HTML parser using regular expressions ;0
It’s been done, if we’re talking about .NET “regular” expressions, like most things
@BartoszKP Perl regex can parse recursive formats like HTML.
@StackedCrooked Because, quite frankly, HTTP is a pretty crappy protocol for the kinds of things people are currently doing. Huge amounts of effort are put into allowing stateful sessions (and such) built on top of (stateless) HTTP.
believe it or not
15:28
There are several libraries out there for building websites in C++
@minitech well yes, if it's a regular expression that's not regular than I guess... ;0
Xeo
Xeo
> The proposal is about adding traits, to determine a lambdas return and argument type(s) at compile time, to the standard library.
/cc @R.MartinhoFernandes (aka @std-asylum)
@Xeo sdfagsdgthjnfyhsytdfghertgsfgsregdfgsthgf
@R.MartinhoFernandes Are you sure about that? Going on at such length, it sounds like you're trying to convince yourself.
@JerryCoffin Not sure if the statelessness of HTTP is a core issue in today's web.
But I'm not really a web dev, so I'm probably wrong.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't understand.
15:33
@StackedCrooked AFAIK the whole point of each yet another web framework is how does it handle state
@StackedCrooked what part of "sdfagsdgthjnfyhsyztdfghertgsfgsregdfgsthgf" don't you understand?
4
What kind of state do modern websites typically need to maintain during a session?
@StackedCrooked It's sort of not, because now lots of libraries (and such) have been written to work around it. In 1997, (most of) those hadn't been written yet, and using a protocol better suited to the job at hand looked like a better way forward for a lot of people.
@ArneMertz I only understand the "fags" part.
5
@StackedCrooked OH FUCK
15:35
@ArneMertz I feel like putting this through a regex for some reason
@Xeo Is it really a bad thing to use the '+' operator? (Only for introspection purposes)
@GamesBrainiac because it says "reg" in there?
@StackedCrooked Who's connected, what they're doing, what they did last, what they're allowed to do next, etc. Consider the number of "submit" buttons you've seen, and consider that virtually all of them are basically working around statelessness of HTTP.
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked huh?
@ArneMertz no because there's a her in there
Xeo
Xeo
15:37
@StackedCrooked ahahahahaha
@R.MartinhoFernandes You have been banned for 168 hours
@BoltClock Said the imaginary pony.
@GamesBrainiac it's not imaginary, I can see the picture also
@BartoszKP And you believe in Santa when you see a pic of a fat guy in a red suit?
Oh come on.
The pony is cute though :)
@GamesBrainiac where did the "beliefs" part come from? ;0
15:40
@BartoszKP The only is imaginary. :P
How many Javascript frameworks are there...
@Xeo using signature = decltype(+f);
I now realise my sentence makes no sense.
@GamesBrainiac when I see the a picture of Santa, I see it
dammit
@BartoszKP Make up your mind already, I'm beginning to think your edits are imaginary.
Xeo
Xeo
15:42
@StackedCrooked that only works for non-capturing lambdas.
also
noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Xeo
Xeo
Stop treating lambdas specially, fammit.
How is this special treatment?
Oh, I see. +f wouldn't work if it's a functor
@GamesBrainiac I have a bad day, can't get myself together :0 I fucked up a whole question on SO with me edits ;0 had to roll it back
@Xeo But lambdas are special :)
15:43
@GamesBrainiac No, they are not.
That's the good thing about them.
@BartoszKP You poor person. I'll give you a hug :)
@GamesBrainiac wait, are you a girl? ;0
My functional code doesn't care for lambdas, and yet it still works with them.
@BartoszKP fuck no
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hmm, but one line functions are awesome :)
@BartoszKP We need sarcasm tags.
@GamesBrainiac no hugging please then ;00 it's ... strange
15:44
@GamesBrainiac A lambda is just a way of creating a functor. No other code should care at all about the syntax used to create the functor.
@GamesBrainiac yeah, I'm really slow today
@BartoszKP But hey man, that happens to me sometimes. Like when my connection is slow, it really sucks for me! :P
@Xeo Is there currently no general way achieve this?
Xeo
Xeo
You should not care
@JerryCoffin I know how to create a functor! :) I used to feel so proud, until lambdas came in.
15:45
@BartoszKP depends on where you come from - there are countries where men kiss each other - and it's not strange ;)
@GamesBrainiac But a lambda expression is just another way to create a functor.
@ArneMertz yeah I know. I was on a Lebanese wedding once : )
@JerryCoffin Yes, quite obvious. As in I could make them without lambda syntax.
@GamesBrainiac Exactly -- and what @Xeo was pointing out was that it doesn't matter whether the functor was created using lambda syntax or by an explicit class definition.
@JerryCoffin Hmm, but creating a functor without a lambdas are more annoying.
15:52
@GamesBrainiac Sure -- but to other code, it's still 100% irrelevant.
zch
zch
Are lambda types are class types?
@zch Yes. They're just normal types.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit thanks, very nice! I'll add it to my "when working" list
Rule of thumb: if your design cares about lambdas, it's wrong.
15:56
I can't think of a use care were I'd want to treat lambda's differently.
@zch There is no "lambda type". A lambda expression is a way of defining a class type. You don't know the name of that class, but it's a perfectly normal class, just like one you could define on your own.
zch
zch
I know
I just wanted to know if they are formally class types
They are
@zch Yes, they are.
Indeed they are.

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