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13:14
@Potatoswatter Did you try -f-no-rtti? You might also need to disable exceptions.
@DeadMG Yes, I need dynamic_cast. And I'm using exceptions.
@Potatoswatter Try re-rolling it, like LLVM did.
@DeadMG ?
@Potatoswatter LLVM rolled their own dynamic_cast so they could have what is effectively dynamic_cast, but with -f-no-rtti
@DeadMG such practices are bullshit
13:17
actually yeah, if you don't need dynamic linking, you can use your own RTTI
@Potatoswatter How desperate are you to strip those symbols?
@Potatoswatter nope
because in Itanium ABI, typeid(x).name() should yield its full mangled name, I believe.
so as long as you don't have -f-no-rtti, GCC can't not produce the typeid structures, realistically.
@DeadMG Yes, but that never happens in my program.
@Potatoswatter Yes, but GCC probably can't prove that.
13:18
And the type hierarchy used to resolve exceptions and dynamic_cast does not use mangled names as far as I know.
@DeadMG oh man not that Itanium crap again. Itanium is dead and probably was stillborn
@DeadMG I already surmised as much in the question. More to the point, the default exception handler does use it.
@Abyx Itanium ABI is the base for the ABI for virtually every other platform- including x86, x64, etc.
@Potatoswatter Hence, you will probably need -f-no-rtti and to disable exceptions before GCC will strip it.
I don't think the ABI specifies the behaviour of typeid(x).name(). The ABI defines what the mangled name looks like, but it's C++ that says what typeid(x).name() does and C++ says typeid(x).name() can rape your mum and return a WAV of her acid screams, if your implementation so desires.
13:20
@LightnessRacesinOrbit The ABI can specify whatever the hell it wants.
No, it can't. For example it cannot specify what I eat for breakfast.
It can only define things within its own scope. The C++ language is not within its own scope.
probably
but it can't make a compiler enforce that.
on the other hand, you can trivially write a program that shows whether or not a compiler follows the ABI for typeid.
Okay, read "specify enforceably"
@LightnessRacesinOrbit maybe you just don't know that it was specified. maybe some kind of UB happens when you eat your breakfast.
13:22
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Well, nobody can make a compiler follow the ABI.
but, as far as I am aware, in order for the linker to merge the type_info globals from multiple compilers together so that their address relation works like it should do, they have to have the same name.
that means the Itanium ABI has to specify a name.
hell the Itanium ABI has to specify practically everything else about RTTI
Yes, but typeid(x).name() doesn't have to give you that name.
At all.
I'm talking about the result of typeid(x).name() and nothing else
if the compiler outputs code that follows the Itanium ABI, then yes, it most assuredly does.
No, it doesn't.
yes, it does.
if you say "We follow Specification X", then you can't just go and do whatever you want, you follow the spec.
The result of typeid(x).name() is not required internally! It is a programmer's utility, not guaranteed to give you a non-empty string, even.
That has nothing to do with the rules governing the actual name of symbols and types.
13:29
but it does have to be the same between compilers.
else their type_info objects cannot be merged, and typeid(T) would give two different results.
The standard defines typeid(x).name() to be implementation-defined, not to return the mangled name of x.
Look it up.
BBL to continue this farce
typeid(x).name() doesn't even have to be unique.
oh god
please don't tell me that you're going to be as moronic as Lightness.
4
13:31
The standard is incredibly lenient about the behaviour of typeid(x).name(). It can change with every invocation of the program.
right.
except the C++ Standard is not the only specification a compiler has to follow in order to meet the Itanium ABI.
it also has to meet the specification of the Itanium ABI.
so if the Itanium ABI says that it has to be something else, then it has to be that something else.
I don't see how they type_info objects would not be mergeable.
the linker can't merge two globals that don't have the same data.
even if you give them the same name and ask nicely.
The function doesn't really need data.
const char* type_info::name() const { return ""; }
well, arguably, having them all return "" every time would be equally effective in that regard.
but I didn't write the Itanium ABI so you'll have to ask them.
13:34
Stop accusing everyone of being moronic and do some research, because you are wrong. The ABI is utterly irrelevant.
yeah
because when you say "Our output code follows the ABI specification", then clearly the ABI specification is irrelevant.
how could I have missed that one.
All I'm saying is that there is no technical reason for it. It's merely a de jure decision.
hm... I wonder what's new in VC++13 comparing to VC++13RC
@TemplateRex s/but/and/!
@sehe: Still, you're kinda promoting a bad practice to newbies :( — Lightness Races in Orbit 36 mins ago
puhleaze, @LightnessRacesinOrbit take your business elsewhere, edit my code, promote good practices in your own answer, but please, don't be a whiner. Thank you
I return 17 and 23 as error codes.
13:46
@sehe, can't figure out what caused a -1 though. Do you something wrong in there? — Shahbaz 1 hour ago
@Shahbaz easy: someone downvoted you :/ You can't tell who, but given enough rep, you can view the timelinesehe 12 secs ago
(I was gonna add "It's only imaginary internet points", but then again, maybe he wants to learn what could be improved, so it's more)
Buy a better editor, copy files remotely, reinstall your PC. If you can't edit text, your problem is no longer a programming problem and you need to go Super User or some place else. — sehe 4 secs ago
@not-rightfold Yeah I'm just that helpful ^
Wow, this room never really goes to sleep, does it?
C2 is not junk. C2 (194) is part of the sequence C2A8, (A8 is 168), and removing it makes it worse because it breaks that sequence. Now, the sequence C2A8 is the UTF-8 sequence for A8, the diaresis character: ¨. This is not a double quotes character. It's a diacritic, and thus occurs together with a letter, not alone. Like this: ä. It is sometimes entered with dead keys, meaning you press the diaresis key once, nothing shows, and then you press the a key and ä shows up. That's probably why pressing it once does nothing. — R. Martinho Fernandes 11 secs ago
It does on some occasions.
@sehe is this funny?
I actually suggested he makes sure he's pressing the right key.
user1804599
plz
13:58
I'm pretty sure he's pressing the wrong key.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't know. It's just something that happened, and I responded.
@MohammadAliBaydoun I thought "I'll just go back and read what I missed in the night... oh, nevermind."
Maybe it seems I think it's funny because I responded to daknok's quote too. That was certainly intended as tired sarcasm :/
@sehe No, I meant if it is funny that he's probably confusing ¨ with "
@R.MartinhoFernandes He seems to be doing "s and I have no clue what it means. He's just basically not distinguising keys from characters or code from typing etc. He'll learn. In a few years
@R.MartinhoFernandes Definitely not to me. It's sad.
Oh god, people suggesting upgrading the compiler would help...
14:04
@not-rightfold plz halp want make MMo !!! Thanks
FAIL!!! s/Thanks/thx/ kthxbye
I have failed you master ;-;
Big time
Argh, my alignment was wrong.
It's not (value + 1) & (boundary - 1), it's (value + (boundary - 1)) & ~(boundary - 1)
I think I'm past the point of worrying if people don't like what I say. There is some fucking stupid shit that is done here seeming for no good reason beyond "that's the way it is done"
14:15
Hai
@jalf You do realize this makes perfect sense, right? Kerberos is the mythological three-headed monster
Looks like Cat.
At least how I image him most of the time.
I believe you
In your particular case, I think your fears are not irrational
14:20
WTF the 7z archive of boost_1_51_0 fails to extract on my machine. It just hangs
Well, I better go before he come back. See you all later.
Tempted to report a security vulnerability in 7z
why not?
No time /effort
14:22
Reminds me of unforgettable.dk
A 42KB archive that extracts 4.5PB
zip-bombs are not old
@MohammadAliBaydoun No it doesn't
@sehe Well, it did in my case ;-;
I like swtch.com/r.zip better.
3
(it's safe to download and extract; just try it, it's not malicious, just fun)
It's a quine!
sehe@desktop:/tmp$ md5sum r.zip r/r.zip
1d22c4a605c19602e41ec9726a74b949  r.zip
1d22c4a605c19602e41ec9726a74b949  r/r.zip
Impressive
I missed a clue, I think
It only bombs out on crappy software.
People use crappy software all the time!
user1804599
There is no software that is not crappy.
user1804599
Except Underscore.js. Underscore.js is not crappy.
14:32
It's just extremely annoying to unzip - you have to manually organize all files in separate folders (5 levels deep) because all filenames aren't unique. Once you do, you just get something like
-rw-rw-r--  1 sehe sehe 4.0G Oct 17 16:30 1.dll
-rw-rw-r--  1 sehe sehe 4.0G Oct 17 16:30 2.dll
-rw-rw-r--  1 sehe sehe 126M Oct 17 16:31 3.dll
And then it stops. "Disk" full
sehe@desktop:/tmp/q$ df -h .
Filesystem      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
none             16G   16G     0 100% /tmp
Oh well, I've currently got 9 different versions of boost extracted (and the archives) on tmpfs, so that explains me running out of memory :/
For fun, I decided to throw a SAT solver at it. Here's what I found. The shortest quine is 16 bytes long:
L0 L0 L0 L2 L0 L0 L2 L0 L2 R3 R2 L2 R3 R2 R3 R2
(...)
Assuming my SAT code is correct, there is no shorter quine. There is also no quine of length 17. However, there appear to be quines of all larger lengths.
Oh, multiline quotes work now.
SAT? (scrambles for the search engine)
Satisfiability problem.
In computer science, satisfiability (often written in all capitals or abbreviated SAT) is the problem of determining if there exists an interpretation that satisfies a given Boolean formula. In other words, it establishes if the variables of a given Boolean formula can be assigned in such a way as to make the formula evaluate to TRUE. If no such assignments exist, the function expressed by the formula is identically FALSE for all possible variable assignments. In this latter case, it is called unsatisfiable, otherwise satisfiable. For example, the formula "a AND NOT b" is satisfiable beca...
The mother of all NP-complete problems.
Btw, to whomever remembers when I linked a claimed proof that P=NP some months back...
It had a very embarrassing mistake in it.
(Not surprising that it was wrong, but the mistake was in misusing induction)
14:38
I think we'd have had different Nobel prize winners, otherwise :./
@sehe FWIW, I linked it together with a claimed proof that P!=NP.
Oh wait, that was a different one. The embarrassing one was this: arxiv.org/abs/1305.5976
Dec 21 '12 at 21:46, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Dec 21 '12 at 21:50, by R. Martinho Fernandes
user1804599
Other two.
Hmm, copy_backward is weird.
Tu t'essuies une fois de temps en temps, comme si chacun de tes doigts était un pénis.
he said that you're a dick
@not-rightfold where's that (you're not in Germany right)
@Abyx In fact, 1010 1011 dicks
You wipe from time to time, as if each of your fingers was a penis.
So, this has been my chore of the day
I wonder how close Google Translate got it.
14:57
clean	clang++	boost_1_44_0
clean	clang++	boost_1_45_0
clean	clang++	boost_1_46_1
ERRORS	clang++	boost_1_47_0
ERRORS	clang++	boost_1_53_0
ERRORS	clang++	boost_1_54_0
clean	g++	boost_1_41_0
clean	g++	boost_1_42_0
clean	g++	boost_1_43_0
clean	g++	boost_1_44_0
clean	g++	boost_1_45_0
clean	g++	boost_1_46_1
clean	g++	boost_1_47_0
ERRORS	g++	boost_1_48_0
ERRORS	g++	boost_1_49_0
ERRORS	g++	boost_1_50_0
ERRORS	g++	boost_1_51_0
ERRORS	g++	boost_1_52_0
clean	g++	boost_1_53_0
clean	g++	boost_1_54_0
@Griwes Very close (I'd say "wipe yourself", but I'm not expert)
It's one weird sentence, then.
There's some UB lurking in some use cases of PhoenixV3
Mar 3 at 14:11, by sehe
Avec une si belle main,
Que servent tant de charmes,
Que vous tenez du dieu malin,
Bien manier les armes.
Et quand cet Enfant est chagrin
Bien essuyer ses larmes.
When copying overlapping ranges, std::copy is appropriate when copying to the left (beginning of the destination range is outside the source range) while std::copy_backward is appropriate when copying to the right (end of the destination range is outside the source range).
Now I'm confused.
That has me confused always. I'll read it when I really need to know :(
But it makes sense.
15:01
It does. I've once established that. I won't rely on me remembering it, though
Can std::copy not make up it's own mind how to copy?
No I get that the backward in copy_backward doesn't refer to the destination, but to the order of the copies.
@R.MartinhoFernandes What? Copy+reverse?
@MartinJames No, it copies the last elements first, but the resulting order is the same.
So copy_backward is used to copy forward in the same array (i.e. to the right, higher indices, etc), and copy is used to copy backward in the same array (i.e. to the left, lower indices, etc)
@MartinJames not in the general case. Iterators don't have to be pointers. Also, pointers from different arrays cannot legally be compared, anyways IIRC
15:04
meh...
@Griwes That's pretty much it, yes
copy_backward puts the elements with higher indices in place first and works backward from there to the lower indices; copy puts the elements with lower indices in place first and works forward to the higher indices.
'T3: Amazon Kindle Fire HDX 7 and 89inch tablets launch in UK' - hope y'all got big pockets :)
I can just buy, if I wanted
How do I search this correctly?
15:12
@MartinJames At first I thought you meant they were expensive.
@Pawnguy7 Chat search sucks.
Can anybody tell me the meaning of the subtitle?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Heh - somewhere, the dot got lost :)
6 hours ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit
The guy just made a simple brainfart mistake, but instead you assumed that he was a member of the C++ Al-Qaeda
A r e   y o u   s u r e   e v e r y t h i n g ’ s   o k a y   w i t h   y o u r   k e r n i n g ?
15:15
Oh, without the 's', it's 26.
Volvo way of turning a minor shunt into a violent electrical, and burning lithium, fire:
http://www.fleetdirectory.co.uk/news/volvo-develops-advanced-new-batteries-for-evs/
@MohammadAliBaydoun refp will occur ~14 times in those results
Aug 6 '12 at 21:28, by R. Martinho Fernandes
I think it's spelled nigga.
Me too, orthogonal to my previous assertion though
@sehe No, because refp spells it like that.
lol, @ScottW has the entire first page.
Thanks Sehe! I am the super user and problem is with that login only. — dev roy 47 mins ago
^ OMG.. He's definitely trolling now /cc @R.MartinhoFernandes
I'm going to give him silent treatment from now
@R.MartinhoFernandes (Because I specified him in the search ;.;)
@MohammadAliBaydoun Oh.
And apparently, Belgium's privates are to die for
2
15:19
MI5 does
Ooooh, we just produced the first non-prototype part of our head thingy.
user1804599
@sehe dedicated server.
user1804599
Hetzner
@MohammadAliBaydoun Really? Don't know whether to star that or flag it :)
This questio has 'Coding style' tag:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19431014/inifinite-loop-not-printing-all-values
15:35
@sehe hah, yeah, granted. :)
@MartinJames Flag it with a star!
Has anybody else seen some advertisements for some "mah pc is slow, fix it " thingy?
I cannot remember the name.
I feel skeptical every time I seen it, so I wanted to look into it.
@Pawnguy7 Thousands. Some are possibly not malware.
True. In this case, it was a television commercial.
Something about a flower shop or something.
Might be "mycleanpc"
All the music is the rainbow.
15:41
Wait, no.
PcMatic.
I take this as a bad sign :D
@Pawnguy7 I clicked it and got a virus
For the amount of advertising, the website seems kind of sketchy.
@melak47 That'll teach you not to wear protection.
Only bad viruses make your computer slow.
@EtiennedeMartel like so?
15:46
@melak47 Exactly.
though I know how to create a simple keylogger for Linux, I use the password of space for my username on my system and I've configured my system doesn't lock at all.
the password of space...and time?
Hrm.
ooh, just 4 minutes left till kubuntu 13.10 will finish downloading. can't wait for all the goodiness they must have been doing
Don't all the major OS's defrag by default?
15:48
Linux doesn't, though its filesystem does get fragmentation.
I've configured my system doesn't lock at all.
I've configured my system to not lock at all and not ask for password after suspend.
(and in lock screen)
@RamchandraApte Ah. then again, I doubt Linux is who they are targetting.
@Pawnguy7 Seriously, stay away from that crap.
wait, what? VS2013 is out of RC?!
@R.MartinhoFernandes Of course. I like to investigate commercials that seem over the top, though.
Ala quibids.
@melak47 Should maybe be pinned, but fuck it, I'm more important that VS.
theinvisiblethings.blogspot.in/2011/04/… for those who think the average linux desktop is secure
I don't consider my computer slow at all.
Only shortcoming, really,is the bad GPU.
@RamchandraApte 4 minutes? That's nothing. sehe has been rebuilding clang/boost all day.
15:50
Qt takes many hours agh.
@R.MartinhoFernandes when are you gonna give your talk? (I didn't even know we had a c++ user group here :D)
compared to python, which builds in mere minutes
(I had completed LFS and some portion of BLFS)
@melak47 Not sure about date yet. Earliest would be in a month (user group meetings are on the third Tuesday of every month)
My computer is between 400-500 (depending on which time's exchange rate to USD you use)
(between 400-500 dollars)
You can sue for such advertising, can't you?
15:52
@Pawnguy7 what is your "bad" GPU?
'My computer was a complete mess and certain programs I had been able to access for years, I could no long access. I had to pay someone to delete the PC Matic off my computer and repair all the damage it caused. I do NOT recommend anyone to ever purchase this in the future. I noticed on their website, there is NO address to mail a letter to, NO phone number to contact.'
@RamchandraApte Intel Chipset something or other.
same shows up in lspci, you need to use better methods to find out, i'll send the link
bleh, my dreamspark doesn't have VS2013 RTM yet :(
run this: grep -i chipset /var/log/Xorg.0.log
15:54
now I can't even be disappointed by finding out they didn't fix my bug :(
intel graphics cards aren't so bad; at least the newer ones
do you think maybe MS forgot to check connect for bug reports for the 2013RC and went all "oh, no bugs in the RC? let's go RTM then! :D"
They added features.
Not sure what.
Windows guy won't be back until Tuesday so I have no one to try it for me.
From the feature summaries I saw, I think it might be worth probing for using ogonek with MSVC.
how does dreamspark work, does new stuff get added automatically by dreamspark, or does whoever manages the thing for my uni have to select or approve new things being added?
@RamchandraApte it is like six years old.
Gets me GL 2.1
16:03
Oh.. Belgium has been seeded ahead of Italy and The Netherlands in the World Cup. Strange - I cannot ever remember watching the Belgian national team in any competition..
@MartinJames Well, that isn't surprising, considering Belgium is Everything That Is And Will Ever Be.
Anyway, as always, I'm probably going to root for the Netherlands.
which world cup? FIFA?
@EtiennedeMartel I'm kinda split now. I was goign to support Italy but, in a moment of madness, I watched the England<>Poland game and it was actually entertaining. After the game, I did not feel suicidal at all. Very strange..
@RamchandraApte Yes, the one that matters.
what is this, Lounge<Sports++>?
@melak47 It's either that or VS2013, endless Clang/Boost building or safe sex for networks.
16:15
codecademy.com/cloudsurfer23527 Here's my profile on code academy so far. Should I be learning other stuff?
@MartinJames Lounge<boost::variant<clang, VS2013, sex>> ? :)
4
@Domecraft Have you considered unlearning some of the stuff you already have?
@MartinJames Every day
does VS have a grace period for activation?
16:17
what's wrong with jQuery?
user1804599
It sucks.
@Domecraft Erm... I'm going for coffee now.
user1804599
@Domecraft Definitely MongoDB and Ember.js. Can’t possibly get more web scale.
What does Ember have to do with webscale
It's the same class of frameworks as Angular
user1804599
shush
16:21
@Domecraft Try not-PHP
user1804599
We had to do Codecademy stuff in college and it was the most boring thing ever.
"[...] define gender as the cultural interpretation of sex, if sex is itself a gendered category. Gender ought not to be conceived merely as the cultural inscription of meaning on a pre-given sex [...]; gender must also designate the very apparatus of production whereby the sexes themselves are established. [...] This production of sex as the pre-discursive ought to be understood as the effect of the apparatus of cultural construction designated by gender." lol @ you "gender studies" people ;0
user1804599
Use duck-gendering and you’ll be fine.
@sehe No, if you're being harmful in your answers, I'll use the comment system to point that out
@DeadMG Huh? No. You're still talking about something else. The output code can follow the ABI specification all it likes -- but the part of that code that was generated from an invocation of typeid(x).name() need have nothing to do with it whatsoever in terms of its behaviour and output-to-user.
That std::cout << typeid(x).name() resulting in an empty output is completely legal is not an opinion or a speculation
16:31
The name() member function returns the address of an NTBS, unique to the type, containing the mangled name of the type. It has a mangled name defined by the ABI to allow consistent reference to it, and the Vague Linkage section specifies how to produce a unique copy.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Well, since the ABI spec defines that it must have a certain behaviour, then every conformant implementation must follow it.
either it follows the ABI and therefore follows what it mandates for the return, or it doesn't.
Ell
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit isn't anything besides 0 EXIT_FAILURE ?
The question is how long until VS2013 goes on DreamSpark :p
Preview went up a couple of days after release I think
That sentence is weird.
16:37
I wanted to make an online Haskell compiler and call it Horribru, but one's already been made.
@Ell EXIT_SUCCESS doesn't have to be 0, but both have to be successful values.
oh my, you're still discussing RTTI ABI
Or should I have called it "Horriblu". Its irrelevant now, there are online compilers :(
@GamesBrainiac like the Coliru?
It's incredibly funny that a good practice for function returning int is to return a defacto boolean value
16:39
@Abyx Yea.
(Fuck EXIT_SUCCESS)
@CatPlusPlus You fuck way too many things.
(Multiple return codes erry day)
hm... so "Coliru" in proper English should be "Colilu"?
16:40
Unless you "lun" your programs, no.
@R.MartinhoFernandes japs do, probably
@Abyx Nope, he just called it that 'cuz he's weird. and belgian
It's COmpile LInk RUn
@CatPlusPlus I know.
@CatPlusPlus But you can have only one file.
@CatPlusPlus Where's the linking?
With CRT and libraries
You never not link
@GamesBrainiac see FAQ - docs.google.com/document/d/…
uhm.. the fuck are those anonymous animals in google docs?
@DeadMG Why won't you listen? The ABI does not define the result of typeid(x).name().
16:44
@Abyx And here I thought I was crazy.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That is a completely different argument to the one you were making earlier, that the ABI spec was irrelevant.
No, it's not. It's the same.
If the ABI does not define the result, then all arguments about what else the ABI says (and you were prattling on about that) are irrelevant, because they cannot affect the result.
Unfortunately, I just checked Itanium and it says:
The name() member function returns the address of an NTBS, unique to the type, containing the mangled name of the type
So fuck that
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Well, this one does. I'll give you that it's a bit overstepping, though.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah I have to step down to that argument now. Bah.
user1804599
@Abyx now I know your name, where you live, where you went to school and where you have worked.
16:46
@not-rightfold ...and?
yeap, sorry.
I had to deal with the Itanium ABI quite a bit when implementing C++ interoperation for Wide.
Windows file sharing stopped working :(
While I am a rapid unlearner, you probably aren't
I've heard of fast learners :p

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