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12:00
Tier 1 investment bank is looking for a C++ developer
great, I don't have a degree, and banks don't look at anyone without a degree
I know
I doubt they'll pay anyone 100k a year without a degree
I often find this too
@MartinJames it appears like that part of the city is down.
dunno about the airport though
@TonyTheLion they need a degree to pay you 100k a year?
12:01
@FlorisVelleman I am a secret agent
@TonyTheLion untrue
@sehe sad but true
@BartekBanachewicz I knew it
@DeadMG I think they match keywords, and for the rest they don't look at CV's until you've got them on the phone
@TonyTheLion I was actually conned by one to actually go to an interview. 200km drive followed by a 30-second interview :(
12:01
@sehe maybe in Holland, but not in Central London
@MartinJames omg
@TonyTheLion Hm. Got a point. Though: the most applicable job was on the dealing room of Rabobank International
@TonyTheLion Both myself and the interviewer agreed never to use that agency again.
@MartinJames What did you talk about in 30 sec?
@MartinJames why was it 30s?
@ScottW too little
Kind of embarrassing every time I have to tell them I don't have a degree
12:03
Involved a lot of 'ad hoc' engineering, directly in support of traders, but also things like doing DDE coupling of live satellite data into their spreadsheets. Yeah, it was a while back (2001?)
@BartekBanachewicz It took that long to find out that I had zero experience in any part of the job.
@TonyTheLion I'm never embarassed by that. I'm proud, because I've obviously managed some kind of career and a lot of experience. It's a good feeling.
@sehe so you don't have a degree?
@TonyTheLion Also, I don't tell them I don't have a degree. That's on my resume, right. I tell them what I do have.
If they don't want to know, I don't want to know. That rarely happens.
@sehe Apparently the ones I call assume that I must have left that out of my CV or something
so I have to explicitly tell them
12:05
Disclaimer: I interview mostly with prospective customers, and that's a bit easier, since they take the company credit to backup their choice of senior devs
@TonyTheLion Perhaps they just want to find out how you feel about it. I suppose I'd glean a lot from the way the response is presented
@ScottW about 1.8 outside of internship :)
without taxes T_T
Yeah there's a grill FOOD
@sehe right yea, but you've got a fuck load of experience to make a degree irrelevant in your case. I don't have 10 years of experience behind me.
@TonyTheLion Nope. I'm a drop out. A 'can't chooser'. An artsy-pants looser who found refuge in IT. Name it all the negative stereotypes you will :/ It doesn't change what I know I can do, or who I want to be
@ScottW 1800 euro
12:08
@TonyTheLion Mmm. I recognize that feel too. I must admit I burnt out trying to compensate for the perceived inadequacy
@sehe You know boost::phoenix
@ScottW If only..
@TonyTheLion Yeah. As if that pays the money, let me find you a more representative quote on that....
@sehe hmmm
@sehe The real question is, how did you land your first job?
12:09
My first job was support role
and then I got into programming from there
@ScottW in holland it's about 1450 a month (with taxes)
and then I found this lounge
@DeadMG I just signed up at a local job agency. I was basically looking to do any kind of administrative work. I ended up getting interviewed/assessment tested as a Y2k tester ('98) and the tests indicated I might be a little bit over-qualified :/ Then the job agency started looking more seriously, and I listed (bluff, in retrospect!) C++, Pascal, and general computer skills.
They landed me a gig with a starter firm. I spent my "probation" 2 months there before I terminated that contract myself because they had no clue on how to manage employees, let alone a 22y/o college drop out :)
@TonyTheLion the recruiter called someone who, according to his CV, does not have a degree. What does that tell you about what they're looking for?
no, you don't
12:13
@DeadMG I got picked up by another firm that had seen me at work for their clients, though. I feigned disinterest for 2 more weeks, but signed the contract. And there I'm now, never since changed employers (though the company changed names/hands) /cc @TonyTheLion
I suggest you give up. Don't take this the wrong way--I just think Phoenix is too complicated to use for real, and you've found a great example of why--most C++ users will never be able to help you fix this, much less figure out how to modify it later on. Just use a normal for loop or something. — John Zwinck Jul 4 at 11:19
Great. Now forget you ever knew that, and future maintainers of your code will like you more. :) Anyway, feel free to post your own answer if you get a fully working version coded up using the same names as in your question. — John Zwinck Jul 4 at 11:36
@TonyTheLion to really drive home the general interest and appreciation in boost::phoenix look at who answered that question...
@jalf Precisely
@sehe @TonyTheLion I should probably clarify that the 'perception' of inadequacy was mine. It still is, to an extent. But I'm happy to have colleagues convincing me otherwise every single day.
user142019
Mood gorning.
@ScottW Got a burned to a degree
user142019
Today is a wonderful day.
@ScottW Or you found out that working life is different from school life. That tends to change your perspective
@rightfold Mood yawning
12:18
@rightfold Lewd gorgeous
join the club with me: smartest idiots!
@rightfold std::more_n<int>
smartest dumb idiots?
@sehe it seems to be different in the sense that many ppl seem to think their potential wears out when they enter work life and that they cant achieve more than they have at that point
plonkestest narcissists!
@ArneMertz And there's truth to that. But you can still make a difference, everyday. Perhaps even more than before. It becomes easier to tell what matters. And it becomes easier to convince stake-holders of that.
12:23
I don't think I'm stupid at all. I just get frustrated, more easily than ever before. lol
sbi
sbi
@thecoshman That links to this one (PDF).
> ...with five times as much memory, an Appel-style generational collector with a non-copying mature space matches the performance of reachability-based explicitmemory management. With only three times as much memory, the collector runs on average 17% slower than explicit memory management.
> However, with only twice as much memory, garbage collection degrades performance by nearly 70%. When physical memory is scarce, paging causes garbage collection to run an order of magnitude slower than explicit memory management.
They misspelled "Apple"!
lol
commen tu t'appel?
Hmm.. what is Krakow like in early August? Good place to visit for a few days?
I can't write French
ignore me
@MartinJames Donno
@ScottW oh baby <3
12:26
@sehe I don't think it's true. You can always achieve more, you can continue to learn, develop the skills you have and accuire new ones
@TonyTheLion comment tu t'appelles?
ah I see
Gotta put those silent letters in there.
I forgot most of my French, even though I had many years of it at school
I never really paid much attention
maybe they are Google?
I'm flattered, but no.
sbi
sbi
12:27
@R.MartinhoFernandes That might have been an artifact of me copying out of a PDF.
@TonyTheLion Heh - I was hoping there might be a Pole or two lounging around with more data:)
power is back
coffee!!
and I got 2 damn big burgers.
this day turns out better than I expected
Oooh, I almost forgot. Last Sunday I beat all the Germans in the pub at a German word puzzle!
6
Muahahahah
he's very humble
12:27
@ArneMertz I think it depends on the person and the life choices. In general I think it's fair to say that average citizens don't get much opportunity to regain the same amount of focus and energy as, say a post-doctorate. ICBWT and exceptions very much exist. It's about life choices and character, I suppose
29 secs ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Muahahahah
sbi
sbi
@TonyTheLion See this.
Dr. Robot and Mr Hyde
2
@sbi these look like 20
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wow
@sbi they definitely beat my monitors
12:29
Are those drugs on the left side?
@TonyTheLion everything beats your monitors, so that's not a big of an achievement
@R.MartinhoFernandes looks like vitamins
@R.MartinhoFernandes what else
@BartekBanachewicz you should see them. But I won't torture you with it
sbi
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, it's a leaflet from a nearby photo shop that I walked in today after lunch to evaluate what scanning of a couple hundred diapositives would cost me.
I should ask for another one at work :3
@sbi funny, in Poland they're called "negatives"
12:30
Looks like drugs to me.
@sbi I notice you're reading the Lounge transcript. S
@sehe I disagree that there are not much opportunities. But of course it's clearly a matter of choice, and a matter of character if you acknowledge and chose to take the opportinities
@sbi Is that like, VC6 on Windows XP/
@DeadMG doesn't look like VC-any
sbi
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Here, they are called "Dias". They are positives, though.
12:31
ehehe not-VisualStudio
@DeadMG It's Eclipse
Is there an EcLisp?
sbi
sbi
@DeadMG Eclipse.
@ArneMertz Mmm. Interesting. I'd love to think about that some more. Not sure chat works for me in this respect. Thanks, anyways, for functionally opposing.
@sbi shrugs either way it's a Ctrl-I in photoshop.
sbi
sbi
@TonyTheLion Of course, I do. Gotta keep tabs one what you guys do here.
12:32
haha
ohnoes now he knows I'm a crusader
Is there an EcLisp?
sbi
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz I always knew.
WE ARE THE CUTIE MARKS OPENGL CRUSADERS //cc @EtiennedeMartel
@BartekBanachewicz the negatives are the ones you get out of the camera. the diapositives are the ones you put into a projector to show off to your family ;-)
12:33
Damn. Forgot battery for my headphones :/
@sbi I kinda feel dumb for that wasted time. Everytime I promise myself I won't get into that again
@ArneMertz ah that kind of projector
lol
@ScottW he's been around
awww
12:34
@sehe ikr? Germans are really dumb. (ok, maybe I shouldn't have written that)
hahahaha
I know quite a few very smart German people
sbi
sbi
10 hours ago, by Etienne de Martel
@rightfold There ya go.
@sbi hahaha, I know that feel
@TonyTheLion being a moon pony princess?
no, the productive bit
12:36
I wish I knew that feel.
sbi
sbi
@TonyTheLion I didn't have no feel, nor any feeling, about this. I just pasted the last posting of Etienne for @Scott to see.
@ScottW oh you
@BartekBanachewicz Don't tell me you are cursed with always being productive.
@sbi blurgh
@R.MartinhoFernandes cursed?
12:37
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh that curse.
53
Q: Propose a privilege to sit in the 500 reputation mark

Grace NoteAs determined from earlier discussions, the retag privilege serves a lot more confusion and a lot less of its benefit due to the suggested edit system. It must be done away with. It will be done away with. ♪ In light of this decided course of action, we're going to need a new snack for the road ...

@R.MartinhoFernandes Nein, Sie sollten es gesagt haben! (Mal denken... Bier Konsumption nicht genugend)
give me power :D
@ScottW I'm here
link?
sbi
sbi
12:38
recht?
@Aboutblank wooo new privileges page
sbi
sbi
wat pun?
@BartekBanachewicz ledges?
the one you erased
12:39
@sehe they're like hedges, only more dangerous
sbi
sbi
@TonyTheLion That wasn't a pun. (Now it is a pun, though.)
Why doesn't anyone link to Tv Tropes anymore? Or reddit?
Grr
> [ERROR] mangled_name is not a valid name under the C++ ABI mangling rules
@BartekBanachewicz it's dangerous to sit on ledges, but probably less dangerous for the hedges
wtf GCC, you produced that name!
12:39
@sehe I linked to reddit earlier today
@KonradRudolph lolwat. How did you managed that?
@ScottW I've heard of them. Wait. That's an album, not a band
@TonyTheLion By calling abi::__cxa_demangle
oh
I don't use that fancy shit
@ScottW no I have heard of them
ggdG
damn wrong window :/
@sehe Needed more often. Here as well.
sbi
sbi
@sehe That depends on what they are grown from. Some of those hecks can be quite prickly.
12:42
@KonradRudolph :%d_ is more effective (perhaps with :se undolevels=0)
@ScottW Don’t Follow
@ScottW listening to that album rtfn
@ScottW oops. too late
its a bit soft
user142019
Disasterpiece is also a masterpiece.
12:43
I need screamo music
@ScottW Not totally unheard of of.
See Pearl Jam.
ueueue Anna Lear downvoted on meta
that must feel good for the meta folk
I love that we have a bug that we consistently call "bouncing boobies"
4
@jalf that doesn't sound like a bug ;)
@jalf What
(I like the alliteration in "bouncing boobies bug")
12:45
lol
@BartekBanachewicz like that deleting comments post from Shog.
Also I asked a friend here if he knew about "Iris" name already
and he's like "yeah for like a month"
I wanted to hit him with something heavy for not telling me earlier :/
@BartekBanachewicz seems to me you might not be following all relevant feeds
@jalf Wontfix? :D
We're doing medical imaging, basically showing images from various kinds of patient scannings. And due to an issue with how images are positioned on the screen, some mammography images are repeatedly shifted up and down by a few pixels
12:47
haha
ahahaha
@sehe hey, that's actually a pretty nice "feed". You know where those leaks come from? Apparently some folks monitor all FCC or whatnot certifications, and get the names from them :D
TIL Apple deprecated their garbage collector for Obj-C and says that reference counting is the way to go
> We feel so strongly about ARC being the right approach to memory management that we have decided to deprecate Garbage Collection in OSX. - Session 101, Platforms Kickoff, 2012, ~01:13:50 – sealedabstract.com/rants/why-mobile-web-apps-are-slow
12:48
the fact that if you are at Intel and want to know more about newest products, then you should go to wikipedia is kinda common knowledge.
> The part that the transcript doesn’t tell you is that the audience broke out into applause upon hearing this statement.
but wait...
is that a good thing?
@BartekBanachewicz patent, trade mark registrations, yep. This is IP territority. It's called 'search alerts' or 'patent watch'. Companies are specialized in those.
Automatic Reference Counting.
12:49
@TonyTheLion yes
std::shared_ptr ;)
Garbage Collectors used in non-Lua-like languages are terrible
@jalf lol
@BartekBanachewicz Lisp.
12:50
@KonradRudolph I am not an expert in this field :S
ARC is still a pain in the ass compared to RAII
true, but still better than "drop in the bucket of GC"
Xeo
Xeo
Fuuuuuuuuck, why doesn't this shit just work :|
I don't know why, if they got rid of GC, why they didn't just get rid of Obj-C completely, its entirely garbage, no?
@TonyTheLion no, it's a nice language after all
12:51
@TonyTheLion not IMO
@BartekBanachewicz lol
It just has very different design goals from both C and C++
well that was unexpected
its got singletons
I still think that GC is fundamentally an awesome idea, but it’s somewhat of a luxury product that only an x86 can afford
12:52
@TonyTheLion So does C++. You can implement a singleton in most languages
@R.MartinhoFernandes I know that JITted javascript chokes on stuff on which interpreted Lua won't even blink.
0
Q: Passing null pointer to placement new

Jonathan WakelyThe default placement new operator is declared in 18.6 [support.dynamic] ¶1 with a non-throwing exception-specification: void* operator new (std::size_t size, void* ptr) noexcept; This function does nothing except return ptr; so it is reasonable for it to be noexcept, however according to 5.3....

Jonathan asked a question!
@jalf This is true
anyway, I'm biased
@R.MartinhoFernandes Let’s downvote him!!!!1111
@TonyTheLion "a language has singletons"? dude.
12:52
lol
@R.MartinhoFernandes perchance, do you know if the proposal for constexpr placement new was actually made to C++14?
Obj-C is weeeeird, but it offers a lot of functionality normally only found in dynamic languages. It makes a lot of things nice and easy. Tbh I think it's a reasonably good choice for what Apple is using it for: application and UI programming
because if not, I think I am getting ready to write it for C++17 :V
@jalf fair enough
while still offering excellent interop with both C and C++ so you can stick all the more specialized code in a C++ lib easily
12:54
@jalf indeed. And the frameworks supplied with it are rather pleasant to use /cc @Tony
there are a lot of things I'd hate to have to write in Obj-C, but again, being easily able to call into C++ code solves that problem
@jalf Objective-C++!
it's a real thing
@BartekBanachewicz I know
Objectional-C++
@sehe Subjective-C
12:55
@jalf brackets
Projective-C--
@TonyTheLion you don't have to use brackets IIRC
there's some sort of alternative syntax.
man, last time I looked at Obj-C code, I saw only brackets
also Obj-C 2.0 added a lot of normal syntax
and I never looked again
12:55
@TonyTheLion maybe it was 1.0
@BartekBanachewicz And they even fixed the big problems with that, so it's usable now, which is nice ;)
> normal syntax
lol
@TonyTheLion object.field
that was 5 years ago
5 years ago C++ was unusable
12:56
I considered doing iOS
I even installed OSx on a VM
and then I decided not to do it
@TonyTheLion yeah, that does look weird. However, it serves to highlight a philosophical difference, which is that you're not calling functions, you're sending messages (which, among other things, implies that it's safe to send a message that an object does not understand -- which would be nonsense with member functions)
I think I'll switch my desktop to OSX if I can
I also considered Android
Ugh, and I just discovered that Android uses a super inefficient GC … what the hell are they smoking?!
(if I find all the drivers)
12:57
in retrospect, not doing that either, was a good choice
@KonradRudolph Android is a pile of crap
@jalf ah I see. I didn't know that
it's like the worst operating system on the market right now
(from developer and technical perspective)
And it actually directly explains the performance characteristics my phone exhibits
12:58
so, in short, is Android worse than Obj-C?
@TonyTheLion yes
i.e. hanging periodically, especially after running for some time, and when lots of applications are open
My phone runs fine.
@TonyTheLion We already knew that ;)
@TonyTheLion I'd say yes. (It's Java!)
12:58
@KonradRudolph I didn't
@TonyTheLion If there's an Apples to Oracles Oranges, that's it.
@ScottW Yes
@R.MartinhoFernandes unfortunately Oracle has nothing to do with Android
@R.MartinhoFernandes dat pun
@BartekBanachewicz Stop ruining my joke with facts.
(Also, unfortunately?)
12:59
@R.MartinhoFernandes for the joke, that is.
Oracle. Urgh
I had to use that monstrosity at one stage in my life

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