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21:01
FINALLY! God damn you X! why do you have to make it so infuriating to use you!
Stupid mouse events get sent so fast that you basically drown in them
@ThePhD Try to keep your dick in your pants, man
you have to do some funky 'oh, there is a mouse move event, I best get rid of the rest right now'
¬_¬ me thinks a self answering question is coming up
@DeadMG I can't! <3
Also @DeadMG PULL REQUESSST. DDD:
Accepts it. Accceeeppttss iiittt.
seriously, why the fuck did you go and rename everything
@Xeo ... why don't we find out?
21:04
maybe I'm just happy with the name of the project as it is
Xeo
Xeo
lol
But you aren't. <3
You want it to be called Wide, 'cause that's what it is. <3
@DeadMG Follow your heart, do the rename. <33
getenv is part of the std:: ?
right now, my heart is more likely to be calling for me to knife somebody
That's new. I thought getenv was part of Linux only... hm.
Ell
Ell
Oh you have been contributing to wide ThePhD?
21:11
ergh... bitbucket grinds my browser to standstill
@Ell From what I've heard, he's been firing a shotgun at @DeadMG's codebase.
Ell
Ell
Hah :P
@Ell I did a small contribute to make it possible for other people to edit and use Wide on their computers.
@EtiennedeMartel I did no such thing!
All the code is intact!
Some people are assholes
I asked if I could rename everything, because when I first pulled I had no idea what "ClangExperiments" was supposed to be. D:
Also CAPI.
Sounded like Papi.
Thankfully not spelled with a K.
21:14
I don't recall you asking
I totally asked!
Ell
Ell
I wonder if I have the most updated repo
Jun 22 at 13:39, by ThePhD
pleasepleaseplease can I rename it Wide? <3
See? I was both eager and respectful, and now you're crushing my dreams ;~;
I didn't mean, "Do what you want and then I'll accept any changes you make"
q___q
Just accceeept it it's a nice set of commits I even separated out the changes from the rename!
PLUUUS I made it work with the latest LLVM. See? Seeee? I'm learning and being useful!
21:20
you should do you pull requests in small more focused groups of changes
I did that!
no you didn't it's one huge ass pull request
I separated the rename and all the tiny changes I made. If you look at the commits tab, it separates it out into the 4 commits I made. The first is the huge-ass rename. The rest is regular changes. :c
Fuck the lack of too localized. :F
@not-TonyTheLion indeed
Ell
Ell
21:22
I'm in the source directory and I did hg pull
@ThePhD that is not a small focused PR though. You are making it harder then it needs to be for @DeadMG to decided if he wants your changes, he either takes it all or non
Well, how do I pack a rename and send it to someone, then? D:
@ThePhD only ask him to pull those chagnes
1 pull request per commit?
21:24
no
do not treat a PR as a commit, they are different things
Okay.
one PR per 'feature' you wish him to pull
not sure how BB will manage a PR but with GitHub it will update the PR to be live on the head of the branch you wish yo pull. I think BB you make the PR for a certain commit
If it works like github, you will need to make your changes on one branch, then merge them to a 'ready to pull' branch, and make a PR for that branch. With github, you can make a PR for 'my_feature_branch' to 'master', like I said, not sure how BB deals with PR
@MooingDuck Java uses UTF-16 (no LE; it's UTF-16 the encoding form: code units are 16-bit words) at the language level, and a crazy variant of UTF-8 for serialization, JNI and class files. WinAPI also uses UTF-16 the encoding form, no LE.
@ThePhD size is a ridiculous concern. Compressed text yields similar sizes in pretty much any encoding.
Ell
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes so besides size, why would you choose a particular encoding?
Actually I should google first
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sending that text over the wire can be a concern, though.
And if an encoding over the wire results in a significantly larger payload, then that encoding isn't worth it for size reasons.
21:34
@ThePhD Just compress the long text.
@ThePhD You missed the point. If that's a concern, solve the problem for real: compress it. It will better than whatever encoding choices you have, and it will be the same for whatever encoding choices you have.
Then you're spending time compressing and decompressing -- obviously, it's not as big or cpu-hogging as video decompression, but is it worth the trouble?
I wanna create something awesome but can't think of a good project to start.. the curse of being a developer I guess.
:O I just got gold badge for this question
@ThePhD yes
21:37
just need something that I can spend time with while waiting for flights and stuff.. there's so much time that I haven't got a clue what to do with when I'm travelling
@ThePhD If size is a concern, then it is worth the trouble.
bandwidth is a much bigger concern than CPU time deflating
@ThePhD If it's not worth the trouble, is it worth picking an inferior compression scheme?
@thecoshman congratulations! I'll never get a gold badge it seems..
Because when you are picking encodings based on the size they yield, you are picking between compression schemes.
Crappy ones.
21:38
@refp what sort of thing?
@thecoshman honestly I have no idea.. preferrably something suitable for being written in C++
@ThePhD if bandwidth is a concern, the cpu time is a trivial matter
@refp how does OpenGL float your boat?
@ThePhD Text compresses like mad.
@thecoshman I'm not that much into graphics, I was born and raised being a backend developer.. with that maybe I should get into the whole "ohmagawdcolors" thingie.. but it doesn't tickle the spots it should I guess, sadly
And WTF did you even read the UTF-8 everywhere thing?
21:40
Mad text compression.
@R.MartinhoFernandes "UTF-8 everywhere ergh... ok then"
@R.MartinhoFernandes A good chunk. I also read the programming guide on there.
@thecoshman maybe I should create something.. that already exists, but try to do it in a better manner. though everything I can think of has been done a million times, and "creating something better" would take a lot (like a httpd, ftpd, (socks) proxy, or whatever)
@refp what about cross platform windowing?
or more specifically, writing a platforms implementation for
@ThePhD It debunks this idea that for eastern text UTF-16 is better because of space.
21:42
@thecoshman you're thinking of something like GTK+?
A 2009 article by Google engineers Arvind Jain and Jason Glasgow states that more than 99 person-years are wasted daily due to page load time increases when users do not receive compressed content.
@refp not really... OpenGL again :P
@thecoshman you got any ideas about a project that would still be considered backend? ;)
@thecoshman you've planted a seed though, maybe I should look into OpenGL and create something "beautiful"
Even in .NET, debugging in release is unreliable.
@refp well, @BartekBanachewicz and myself (and a few others I think) are working on some low level OpenGL code to make it less painful to work with. I am also working on platform abstraction. So, there's two projects you can start helping with if you fancy it :P
21:46
@thecoshman got a repo?
@refp of course :P
@ThePhD To be honest, that's only truly a concern in C++ and C where you have this totally crappy fractured environment.
Because those "outside APIs that require some weird encoding" don't exist in other languages: they require the language's standard string type, with whatever encoding that means.
@refp GLDR, our gl 'wrapper' project. Peanuts my windowing library, if you fancy that.
@thecoshman care for me to check it out?
@thecoshman thanks man
derp :P
21:49
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's all the fault of the pointers.
Goddamn pointers.
@ThePhD Nah, it's mostly the fault of being old and pre-dating Unicode.
C didn't have that as a choice.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I disagree.
@refp I don't suppose you love working on Macs do you?
every application needs to interoperate with the operating system, and even components written in say .NET need to interop with, say, a database in UTF-8 or whatever that was set when they still had an app in UTF8, or insert random legacy component here
the only difference is that you can't choose to have UTF8 as your encoding to avoid a bunch of conversions
because I could run a Windows VM to do that stuff, but I have no idea about mac dev
21:51
@thecoshman I'm a linux guy, though I did run mac os x for quite some time and I have this live-usb-stick (OSX) somewhere around here
@DeadMG Nope, but you get a homogeneous environment where you can just apply what Ned Batchelder calls a Unicode sandwich.
wat
mm sandwich
@DeadMG UTF8 likes being surrounded by two beefy UTF32 encodings.
With strong arms.
21:52
@ThePhD With some UTF16 dressing.
well, I'm not saying that Unicode sandwich is not good
@R.MartinhoFernandes I like the image that sentence creates in my head.
what I am saying is that forcing an arbitrary predefined encoding on the user and forcing them to convert on the boundaries may not be the wisest move.
instead of, say, simply defining their sandwich's filling to be the same as the outside so that there isn't even a boundary in the first place.
I am saying that the situations where that isn't wise are not common enough or problematic enough to lose its benefits.
@DeadMG One big chunk of meat.
21:54
We have at least five encodings suitable for Polish letters: Mazovia, CP852, ISO 8859-2, Windows 1250, UTF-8. And I say this: fuck encodings and fuck conversions.
Unicode Steak.
So public interface is std::string, internally convert to unicode std::wstring (in case of Windows).
@thecoshman my bookers are sending me a bunch of emails, I'll need to reply to those but the projects has been bookmarked. I will let you know how things turn out!
@refp cool cool cool. Did you ever delv into X11 code?
@DeadMG What's gonna be the encoding used for Wide strings?
21:56
UTFWide
probably going to offer the user to choose what encoding they want
@thecoshman yeah, I've got some experience in that area.. I'm running my own, heavy modified, fork of suckless dwm
@DeadMG That's the wrong way to do it.
Of course, the problem with offering the user the chance to let the user choose means that applications written in the same language become utterly incompatible with their strings.
@refp oh thank god, because I've been bumbling my way through it for a while now :P
21:57
You should only care about encodings when reading a string from somewhere, or when writing it.
only if you don't allow the users to convert encodings simply
not to mention that in Wide, the idea that you would fix the type of something is not very common
@ThePhD Once you have that fractured environment you cannot get out. And since Wide will play in C++'s ecosystem...
What I'm saying is that the encoding used for an actual string should be opaque.
Specify encoding when reading a string from a stream, sure. But once you get a string, what it is underneath shouldn't matter.
I don't intend to offer a different interface depending on encoding.
UTF32 String types. :3c
Let the 4byte ascii letters begin!
21:59
@ThePhD Changes nothing. If you put that in your API, you screw people that use your API and a UTF-8 API.
UTF128 ftw

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