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7:00 PM
We'd fuck it up so hard.
 
They chose to patent it instead. Oh wait, that was Borland.
 
Again.
 
because microsoft hates openness
 
if they simply set a Windows x86 ABI, we would be much better off.
 
well, can we look at the future then?
what can be done with the current situation at hand?
 
7:00 PM
@DeadMG they have one. You can use it. But it's patented, so you may get sued.
 
As if GCC would follow suit. :v:
 
@BartekBanachewicz I am sure XKCd has something to say about this
 
The patent expires in 2014.
 
@rubenvb Also, the fact that it's not publicly specified and changes every release probably doesn't help, no?
 
There was already a patch to support the x86 Windows ABI for GCC.
 
7:01 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Forget about C++, be happy!
 
@BartekBanachewicz Write a new language that crushes C++ and C into the Fortran/Pascal spots.
 
Got rejected due to patent concerns.
 
@ThePhD D?
 
@ThePhD Fortran is still alive and well bub.
Pascal somewhat too.
 
@ThePhD Wide.
 
7:02 PM
@CatPlusPlus sorry but Haskell would require too much effort for me to learn now, and as I said, Terra is experimental. C# is not compiled to native code.
 
@DeadMG Wide just looks like strange C++ right now. :D
 
@DeadMG because that doesn't rely on C or C++?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, there are only three languages beside C++.
 
@rubenvb Wat?
 
@rubenvb actually it doesn't, I believe
 
7:03 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I am learning Haskell and I think it's worth it
 
@CatPlusPlus are any other really viable?
 
Also who cares about ~native code~
 
I do
 
Everything is compiled to native code these days.
 
I do too
 
7:03 PM
Native Code master race. <3
 
@DeadMG You use LLVM for code generation, no? What libraries do you link to?
 
JIT/VM master race
 
@AndyProwl worth in terms of general self-improvement or worth in terms of really making something nice in it?
 
@rubenvb Errr... yes, but when it comes time to add functionality for Wide libraries, then I can specify whatever ABI I want.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Well then use C++ and be miserable I guess.
 
7:04 PM
@CatPlusPlus ...still can't fucking keep the pace
 
Wide already uses internally a different ABI than Itanium.
 
@CatPlusPlus if that's your answer you are terribly limited in options.
 
I treat C++ as last resort optimisation option.
 
@BartekBanachewicz self-improvement mostly, but it enriches the way you think about programming, and you may apply that in other languages
 
7:04 PM
Which is pretty much always available.
 
@DeadMG oh right. You were not going to piggy-back on C++ anymore.
i forget.
 
@AndyProwl well I'd like to have a piece of language that actually works, and we can't really say that about C++
 
well, in the long term of course I wasn't going to piggy-back on C++
 
I find ~ultra max raw performance~ to be of least concern in nearly every case.
 
it's just convenient for whilst the libraries are immature
 
Ell
7:05 PM
Why is it good for it to be compiled to native code?
 
but there are some things I'd already find more convenient to be written in Wide
 
@Ell ~speed~
@DeadMG I should hope so.
 
Ell
I don't care about ~speed~
how about besides that?
 
Nothing.
 
I think I have to learn Python more
 
7:06 PM
@Ell then write C#. Or Java.
 
Absolutely nothing.
 
because that's really the language that can be useful
 
Ell
@rubenvb I write c++ because I like raii
and I like c++
 
@Ell The primary issue is OS APIs.
 
Python is installed everywhere, has a shitload of libraries and is quite powerful
 
Ell
7:06 PM
but I'm just generally querying about native code
@DeadMG oh yeah that's a good point
 
@Ell C++ doesn't need to be "compiled up front" per se.
 
there's not much point writing your program is super-platform-independent JVM bytecode when it's operation depends on a platform-specific OS API
 
Native code is inflexible mess.
 
If you want to stretch JIT, look up CERN's Clint and Cling.
 
And I think that actually transition from Lua to Python would be quite easy
 
7:07 PM
but also
 
@CatPlusPlus hurr Terra durr inflexible
 
I don't see the benefit of a JIT/VM in the end: a good language compiles its code, and compiling to bytecode vs. compiling to native code is essentially an implementation detail. In theory, I should be able to write code in a good language, and then have it compiled to whatever-the-fuck I want to. Whether that's a VM's bytecode or native machinecode should just be a goddamn compiler flag.
 
you are still in 90's
 
I appreciate that this is a generalization, but languages which are typically implemented non-natively often simply have sucky semantics for many things, like no RAII, weak generics or just dynamic typing, etc.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm talking about final form, not the source.
 
7:08 PM
@ThePhD In theory, you could compile Wide to JS using Emscripten.
 
@CatPlusPlus Remember that Terra code can also recompile itself at runtime, if you provide LLVM libraries
 
@DeadMG Sounds like a lot of steps for not much gain. :D
 
and I believe there are, or were, backends for LLVM to CLR IL or JVM bytecode
 
I really don't care about Terra.
 
and that's why I don't think your opinion is relevant
 
7:09 PM
:laffo:
 
I forgot what Terra is.
 
it's too biased on your subjective thoughts
 
Fanboys everywhere.
 
Scripting language of some sort?
 
@CatPlusPlus no, it's not that
 
7:10 PM
hmm. To do something useful, Lua, Haskell, or Go.
 
you wouldn't look at Terra no matter what.
 
I would use C# more,
 
I looked at Terra.
 
and that's anti-fanboyism, if I might call it that.
 
I simply don't find it interesting.
 
7:10 PM
if the mono implementation wasn't whack and the Mono IDE wasn't even whacker.
 
there is no other language that offers what Terra does ATM
 
Like what?
 
Lua integration? I guess.
 
combination of native compilation with runtime flexibility and reflection, extreme metaprogramming
 
7:11 PM
But that's not a feature I care about very much.
 
terralang golang wide-language python... Why is there no C++.com?
 
Or precompilation to native code.
I prefer JITtes
 
@rubenvb isocpp?
 
@BartekBanachewicz don't mind me. I'm rambling.
 
Also that entire sentence is soaking of marketspeak.
Some examples maybe.
What is "extreme metaprogramming".
 
Ell
7:12 PM
@ThePhD So you mean, you would rather have to compile for each platform as opposed to have it compile on the go?
 
@rubenvb Yeah but there are no isoterra, isogo, isowide or isopython so there!
 
@Ell If the language is good enough, I don't care what it compiles to.
 
local sig = { terra.int, terra.int } -- Lua value
terra foo ([sig])
  --hurrdurr
end
 
That's just a compiler flag, and what build systems are for.
 
7:13 PM
@rubenvb isocpp.org
 
Ell
@ThePhD I don't think jit/native is to do with language quality. Or is that the point you were making?
 
And python has a lord and master guarding the language.
 
@Ell Yes, that was the point.
 
@BartekBanachewicz So just creating types at runtime? The thing that Lisp could do 40 years ago?
 
@CatPlusPlus Lisp has awesome traits, but its general nature makes it hardly applicable nowadays
 
7:13 PM
A language doesn't have to be a pile of shit. I wish C++ and C and C# and Java and etc. etc. stopped making flaws in their designs and just made the best choice. =/
 
@CatPlusPlus If I may recommend, the V8 source code is very well written C++ code imo. The Dart runtime is also very nicely written.
 
Also System.Reflection.Emit.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum is it written with Google Style Guide?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Uh, so?
 
@ThePhD Yeah... figuring out what the best choice is really isn't that simple.
 
7:14 PM
I am dotnette programmer now.
 
Well, C++'s approach to it was "include all the things!" The problem is, they included all the old, shitty things too.
 
@CatPlusPlus s/programmer/fanboy/
 
@CatPlusPlus You said you like JITs, I learned a lot of cool stuff by looking at these code bases. I thought you might appreciate it.
 
hue hue hue
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not sure, probably. Why?
 
7:15 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum he said that he likes to write in JITted languages, no to write them
 
Hi.
 
Hey
 
Like their outdated, old-man compilation model from C. And some of the really bad, wonky syntax mess.
 
@ThePhD That wasn't for fun, you know. It was because not including them would have killed it before it was born.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum because any code using Google Style Guide is automatically terrible
 
Ell
7:15 PM
@ThePhD but back then, they didn't know better
and they wanted backwards compatibility
 
@BartekBanachewicz Please, educate me. What coding guidelines do you follow?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum my own, obviously.
 
@DeadMG True enough, but we're far along enough now that it should have trimmed its tumorous masses or a new language should have corrected its mistakes without introducing new, glaring issues (D, I'm looking at you with your shitty garbage collection).
 
Not Google Style Guide.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum anything except the terrible GSG.
 
7:16 PM
teehee
 
@BartekBanachewicz JVM isn't bad either.
 
@CatPlusPlus I agree. C# and Scala are both nice languages for those platforms
 
Fine, if you're a .NET fanboy I think CLR via C# is also a very nice read, although it gets really boring at points.
@BartekBanachewicz Which are?
 
@ThePhD I agree. The issue is firstly, implementing native codegen sucks (which is why LLVM is filling this gap), and secondly, it's difficult/impossible to link to existing C++ code (hello Clang and therefore Wide).
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I don't have them written
 
7:17 PM
A book? A programming book? Ahaha no.
 
the problem is that if you have a language base where the price of entry is really high, it's hard for people to innovate.
 
@DeadMG Just keep C-like syntax. That'll earn you enough followers, unless you're filling a very specific niche (Haskell, Erlang, etc.)
 
Syntax is irrelevant.
 
Ell
It's not
 
Syntax is what everyone's fingers are used to. Keep a similar syntax and people can immediately write / understand what you're trying to do, bar a few language differences.
 
Ell
7:19 PM
if you have a familiar syntax then you will gain more users at the start
 
@ThePhD Nobody is gonna migrate their 5 million LOC codebases to D if it can't call C++ APIs.
 
@DeadMG Ah, that too. Library support... =[
 
Nah.
Once you know more than 3-4 languages syntax is just there, and it can be pretty much anything.
 
Ell
But you would rather use a familiar syntax
 
I know 5 languages and Haskell still looks alien to me. =[
 
7:20 PM
If it still matters to you then you don't know enough go learn more you baddies.
 
@Code-Guru It can be, but the challenge is part of what keeps it interesting.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus Why? Would you rather use a familiar syntax or not?
 
The parts of syntax I care about is whether it's annoying to write or not.
I don't care if the conventions are the same, it's a matter of hour max to get familiar with differences.
 
I'd rather use useful syntax. You get used to syntax after a day or two anyway. I'd rather have clever but not 'familiar' syntax.
@Ell You're sounding like those people at JetBrains. "Scala is hard because thinking is hard so let's invent a language that sucks almost as bad as Java and use that instead of learning Scala"
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum what?
 
7:23 PM
@BartekBanachewicz kotlin.jetbrains.org (probably not for the faint of heart)
 
@ThePhD What are the five languages? Are they all imperative?
 
Ell
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'm just making the point that a familiar syntax is favourable, and a familiar syntax can help a new language get users
 
I love me
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum oh okay. Saw that. I thought at first you are bashing Scala :v
 
C++'s syntax is pretty good ... once you chop off all the C stuff and get rid of digraphs and quite a few of the silly declaration nonsensical things you can do.
 
7:23 PM
Let's ditch the switch.
 
@Ell well then Python's syntax is certainly not familiar
@milleniumbug why?
 
Or improve it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz No I fucking love scala. It's a pretty awesome language, it's my one bit of sunshine when I have to work with Java code.
 
C++ syntax is pretty good once you throw it away and make something else.
 
@CatPlusPlus For your first language, syntax is almost all there is. After three or four, it fades into the background. After a few dozen (especially some with really horrible syntax) you start to realize that it does matter after all -- not as much as it seemed like at first, but important nonetheless.
 
7:24 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Continuing by default. Let's reverse it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Python syntax is pretty much C syntax with (){} replaced with :
(And indentation enforced)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum not at all
@milleniumbug oh that. yes.
 
@JerryCoffin Eh. Languages with annoying syntax I just skip.
Hi Lisp
 
Haha.
Lisp isn't that bad ((((
 
switch(a) { case 0: continue; case 1: /*whatever*/ }
Fallthru
 
7:25 PM
switch is p useless except for enums.
 
Non pattern-matching switch case is a bad idea in a language with higher order functions anyway.
 
@CatPlusPlus That's why it sucks.
 
@CatPlusPlus As annoying as it can be in some ways, until you've learned a Lisp, you're unqualified to comment on language design.
 
@JerryCoffin I know Lisp thanks.
It's still annoying.
 
@CatPlusPlus Obvious self contradiction. You just previously said you skip language with annoying syntax and cited Lisp as the example.
 
7:28 PM
@CatPlusPlus Hi Haskell
 
Haskell has a nice unobtrusive syntax.
 
Only pieces of syntax in Lisp are '(' and ')
 
Haskell's syntax is compact, but I still can't understand it. >_<
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus Are you serious? o.O
 
well and '#' and ''' but you don't have to use them
 
7:29 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Easy to parse.
 
@ThePhD Just do one project in Haskell. I have one huge issue with Haskell.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum ?
 
I can't find a job coding Haskell :(
 
hahaha
constant rant
 
@JerryCoffin Fine, not "skip", more like "throw into fire and forget about them forever".
 
7:30 PM
I skip all languages
 
:words: w/e.
 
i mean Lisp is haskell minus parentheses (epic troll)
 
What.
 
It's not troll if it just makes you look stupid.
 
7:31 PM
minus?
 
@milleniumbug meh, irrelevant, everyone understood anyway
 
@BartekBanachewicz :)
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus I could have sworn you just said syntax was irrelevant
 
11 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
The parts of syntax I care about is whether it's annoying to write or not.
 
@Ell he is chasing his own tail
 
7:32 PM
@CatPlusPlus what classifies as "annoying to write"?
cause annoying is subjective
 
@TonyTheLion Uh, a thing that's annoying to write?
 
that doesn't really clarify it. :/
 
Like, when you write it
you get annoyed.
 
example, perhaps?
 
int***
<3
 
7:33 PM
I'm subscribing to the theory "familiarize yourself with new language every 6 months"
 
I get annoyed by $var
 
int* const ** const
 
@ThePhD oh please, kill me already
 
<333
 
that's why Perl and PHP must die.
because if I can't use a variable by its name the language creators have fucked up really hard.
 
Ell
7:35 PM
why can't you use a variable by its name? o.O
 
@Ell $var instead of var
 
Ell
I don't see that as a big deal really, and it can be useful
like in ruby @ denotes member variable
 
@BartekBanachewicz PHP is an amazing programming langauge with no flaws at all. cheddar naming is awesome. It's consistent, and I've always wanted 12 constant global functions to sort an array.
 
no prefixes are annoying
m_ or some such thing are annoying
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum yea I've read docs of php the other day and I was like "no way"
kdrsort()
 
7:37 PM
Funniest are functions that randomly switch order of arguments.
 
in this case I really like C++ range syntax
@CatPlusPlus and imagine there are people that can explain that and defend it
 
functions with >3 arguments are annoying
 
I'm not even kidding :( , array_multisort arsort asort krsort ksort rsort sort uasort uksort usort please_kill_me_already_sort who_ths_fuck_was_so_high_to_think_this_was_good_sort ``ffsort`
 
classes with more then 5 members are annoying
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Well, I'm learning parsing, so I'm writing toy language. I came to the conclusion that even by trying to create a bad language, it will be hard to create language worse than PHP.
 
Ell
7:38 PM
tbf php documentation is good :P
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum ffsort is my personal favorite
@Ell let's make good docs to extremely shitty language. Why not the other way around?
 
mysql_escape_string, mysql_REAL_escape_string
 
First one is a total phoney
 
Fuck that impostor.
 
7:39 PM
I think I've used that in my code
if (!is_array($arr))
{
	return mysql_real_escape_string($arr);
}
 
Let's not mention that ext/mysql was crappy and outdated even in PHP4, and yet the community loved it so much.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Extremely shitty docs to good language? Yeah, it has been done before.
 
@milleniumbug I beg to differ, PHP is very optimized for specific things. I bet that you can't optimize a language for an SQL injection better even if you really try your best.
 
PHP is optimised for idiots.
 
7:40 PM
@CatPlusPlus because it just was there. Remember my attitude from yesterday?
 
Er, no.
 
2 days ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
@Telkitty猫咪咪 - 'PHP is a minor evil perpetrated and created by incompetent amateurs, whereas Perl is a great and insidious evil perpetrated by skilled but perverted professionals'
 
@CatPlusPlus "I don't want to use Python because I can't just put a file for server to process"
I mean I was aware of badness of this
 
Oh, that. (It's not true btw.)
 
Well you or someone else said you can configure Apache for that
 
7:42 PM
Meh. I wrote my homepage in C once.
 
but seriously if I am to configure something I might as well configure proper WSGI (which I did)
 
You have to configure Apache for CGI PHP too, so not like PHP is easier in that regard.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Oh, noes.
 
I've set up Flask with WSGI yesterday on Candybox.
@CatPlusPlus in most cases it comes preconfigured TBH, either by stuff like LAMP or XAMPP, or your hosting provider
 
On crappy shared webhosts maybe.
 
Ell
7:43 PM
^
 
I haven't used those in like 10 years.
Last time I configured httpd PHP took me longer than WSGI. :v
 
I use python for web on open source projects I'm involved in. I have to say I enjoy it, also the fact I don't have to deal with IT makes the experience a lot better.
 
I've installed LAMP on Candybox, but my sites have PHP disabled
I just removed the entries from conf and added Flask WSGI where I needed it
I guess I could just remove PHP at this point
 
Eh, preconfigured *AMP stacks is not something I'd deploy publicly.
Esp that fuck MySQL forever.
 
true that
 
7:45 PM
I don't get why people still use MySQL today :(
 
I am not using that either, I installed PostgreSQL
but I am thinking about MongoDB
 
They have non-overlapping use cases pretty much.
 
always wanted to give that one a proper try, and since Python has some stuff to connect with it.
 
I use both, both have strong and weak spots. Good luck with the lack of transactions in Mongo it's a pain.
 
user142019
MongoDB is horrible.
 
7:45 PM
@CatPlusPlus meaning that I wanted to make an app utilizing that
 
It has its use cases
 
user142019
It's the slow version of /dev/null.
 
I wrote chat server using MongoDB as history storage backend.
 
it's not that I really use DBs for anything in particular ATM
@CatPlusPlus impressions?
 
Does /dev/null support shardng?
 
user142019
7:46 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Holy shit. For my own mental health I'm going to assume that you're just messing with me and that you're not actually retarded. Do you even know what a shard is?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I did, I forgot, no lasting impressions. vOv
 
kk
@rightfold that was a joke, he is kinda concious
 
@rightfold Chill.
 
user142019
@BartekBanachewicz He quotes video, I quote video. /cc @CatPlusPlus
 
@rightfold Shards are the secret ingredient in the web scale sauce. They just work.
 
7:47 PM
@ScottW Hey!!!
 
Ell
What is wrong with mysql? o.O
 
@Ell everything
 
Oracle killed it. You should use MariaDB. :laugh:
 
Ell
It does what a db is supposed to do doesn't it? :3
 
7:48 PM
PostgreSQL does, so why bother with MySQL.
 
user142019
The first problem with MySQL is that it has a terrible name.
 
@rightfold But they fixed that!
 
user142019
The second problem with MySQL is that it's owned by Ora-ugh-cle.
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz it has tables n stuff, right?
 
7:49 PM
Arch already switched to MariaDB.
 
@Ell No, it's a document store...
 
I think other distributions are moving towards that too.
 
Ell
@BenjaminGruenbaum MySQL?
 
@Ell That's a very simplistic view of a database you know.
 
user142019
@BenjaminGruenbaum Please tell me you don't actually make a living in the technology field.
 
7:49 PM
@Ell Oh, I thought you were talking about mongo. My bad.
@rightfold I'm a web programmer.
 
user142019
@BenjaminGruenbaum As of this moment I officially resign from my job as software engineer and will take up work on the farm shovelling pig shit, and administering anal suppositories to sick horses because that will be a thousand times more tolerable than being in the same industry as dipshits like you.
 
I love that some people did what I was too lazy to and wrote all that crap down.
 
Ell
@BenjaminGruenbaum No probsies
 
@ScottW all good?
 
user142019
7:51 PM
I'm using D and I like it so-far.
 
user142019
It's like, C++++.
 
@rightfold I get a woody playing with software like it's a sex doll. Redis will kick Memcache'd ass, it's so fast and scalable.
 
@ScottW are they hot and in your area right now?
o_0 something tells me it's not the best time to be making jokes like that...
 
more importantly, are you sure they're not cats?
 
> MySQL development and administration causes brain damage, folks, the same way PHP does. Where PHP teaches programmers that "array" is the only structure you need, MySQL teaches people that databases are awkward, slow, hard-to-tune monsters that require constant attention.
:laugh:
 
7:54 PM
@ScottW wait... are you really with hookers... whilst on the lounge?
 
user142019
@ScottW Great target.
 
Ell
jesus christ. "You're the girl that I want, if I ever wrote your name I'd make sure it was in a beautiful font", this song is horrific
 
@CatPlusPlus does he bother to suggest alternatives?
 
PostgreSQL.
 
user142019
> src/gear/parse.d(45): Deprecation: non-final switch statement without a default is deprecated
 
user142019
7:57 PM
Hmm.
 
@ScottW well obviously not if you are just texting them :P
 
user142019
Neat.
 
PostgreSQL is probably the best you can get for free by far. I have to work with MSSQL and SQL Azure and I'm really suffering from it.
 
@Ell Comic Sans.
 
Ell
ahhh
 
7:58 PM
Ugh still 6 Android assignments to do.
I should've done it months ago.
 
@CatPlusPlus he doesn't though in the article, he just rants about how bad MySQL is
@ScottW of course not
 

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