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6:00 PM
What are popular extensions?
 
How do you even manage strings in C? They're unmanageable.
@JerryCoffin Yeah, that works too
 
@rubenvb If it does not bother you, I'd like to ask something. I am trying to build clang 3.4 with your version of mingw 4.8 supporting threads. I have a problem with unresolved references to __registerframe and __deregister_frame while linking lli.exe, and I found this thread where you propose a patch. I'm wondering why the patch is || defined(_WIN64) instead of || !defined(_WIN64)
 
user142019
Can I force inlining of a function with GCC?
 
@ShuklaSannidhya useless UB crap
 
user142019
Really force, not giving any other option to the compiler.
 
6:01 PM
@rightfold __forceinline was MSVC?
 
@milleniumbug Amazingly, much of C's early popularity stemmed primarily for its superior string handling (compared to things like Fortran).
3
 
lol wat
@JerryCoffin that's not even funny
 
user142019
__attribute__((always_inline)), apparently.
 
@BartekBanachewicz But it is entirely true.
 
@AndyProwl it's a hackish patch, because the real thing would require a configure time check and a macro for the libgcc symbols.
 
6:02 PM
@JerryCoffin Oh, now I'm curious.
 
@sbi Just letting you know I visited Bastei today and it was amazing! Thank you for the advice!! <3
 
@AndyProwl Currently, I have this: ideone.com/XHet0i
 
@rubenvb yes, I realize. However adding ` || defined(_WIN64)` will enable the code that uses __[de]register_frame rather than disabling it, won't it?
 
@AndyProwl it may be wrong. See above for a better fix.
 
@rubenvb Oh, all right! That makes sense
Thanks a lot
 
6:04 PM
It only does the "wrong thing" for GCC 4.7 x64.
 
user142019
Are __attribute__((always_inline)) and [[always_inline]] the same thing?
 
It disables that portion where it doesn't have to.
Not that that matters much at all.
 
@milleniumbug At least up through F77, Fortran's string handling capabilities basically consisted of arrays of char (like C uses) but without any pre-defined functions to do searching, concatenation, etc.
 
@rubenvb I'll try using the last patch you've shown
 
Note 64-bit Clang is useless for C++ on Windows.
 
6:05 PM
@rubenvb How come?
 
It produces linux exception handling code, which for obvious reasons leads to linker errors.
 
oh, so I'm doing the wrong thing after all
 
no, please, fix LLVM/Clang.
Make it work.
The world will be indebted to you forever and ever and ever.
 
I'm a total newbie for this kind of thing
I don't think I'll manage to make it work
 
Also: 32-bit Clang only functions in conjunction with GCC 4.6
Tip: get my prebuilt binary packages.
 
6:07 PM
Well
Basically what I wanted was to have Clang's latest with support for C++1y features, also working with threads
 
Aaaaaah: so that's why my Clang build builds "Hello world" with segfaults
I used g++ 4.7
 
You can rebuild a newer Clang with that GCC.
replace the old one.
@milleniumbug yup.
 
So basically if I'll just apply the patch you've shown before, build clang, and then compile, it will never link
 
@AndyProwl the patch isn't even needed for 32-bit.
It's only required for 64-bit GCC 4.8+.
 
@rubenvb Yes, I mean, if I keep using this 64 bit GCC 4.8
 
6:10 PM
Oh, yeah.
Sorry, misunderstood. You are correct.
 
No problem
 
Hello, Lounge!
 
@Code-Guru Hello.
 
Re: Room topic...So I take it that replies are strongly encouraged here
 
@rubenvb But if I will build Clang 3.4 with GCC 4.6, will it not use the stdlib that GCC 4.6 comes with?
 
6:12 PM
@AndyProwl yes. The C++ Standard library and the compiler are two very seperate things.
libc++ still doesn't work decently on Windows.
 
@rubenvb OK, so I won't be able to work with C++11's threads right?
 
@AndyProwl I had a GCC 4.6 build with std::thread once.
 
@Code-Guru ...by some, anyway.
 
but that wasn't dw2, so no. I think you're out of luck. Let me check mingw-builds, they might have the necessary stuff.
@Andy try this GCC 4.6.4
 
@rubenvb That will still lack C++11's stdlib features though, won't it?
 
6:16 PM
@AndyProwl a few, i.e. those added in GCC 4.7 and 4.8. 4.6 is quite usable though.
libstdc++ with GCC 4.8 isn't complete either.
 
I'm wondering why the hell they do not want to introduce a better support for windows
 
There is no 'they'.
Things get done when someone gets around to doing them.
 
@LucDanton Clang is not a google project?
 
@AndyProwl no. It's more of an Apple project.
 
aha
 
6:19 PM
But it's backed by a ton of PhD students.
and a University of whateverville.
If it was google's, it'd be on code.google.com
 
^i.e. all people doing things
 
It's really crazy the amount of work being done. But as always in the Open Source world, there's no Windows developers knowledgeable enough about Windows to actually make things move.
Heck, even GLib's Windows maintainer dropped out.
 
So once again (forgive me if you already explained it, but I'm really new to this), what is the patch we were talking about for if I won't be able to produce linkable code anyway?
 
@AndyProwl AFAICT, it's still usable for plain C.
 
oh, I see
 
6:23 PM
And without a chicken, there'd be no egg, would there?
I was kinda hoping someone to notice, investigate, and fix the underlying problems.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Stephano vs Tod #dhopen
 
'Nobody taking ownership' is a kind of tragedy of the commons, isn't it?
 
ah shit. mingw-builds use a different directory layout. WTF.
how on earth is that even possible. GCC sucks balls so much in that regard.
 
@LucDanton Raw pointers? ;)
 
Hey remember that PSA I made.
> SoundPool: Unable to load sample: (null)
Ugh thanks Android for being ever so helpful.
 
user142019
6:28 PM
> "D"iving In — The D Programming Langauge
 
user142019
Dat pun.
 
wow, new Clang gives multiple definition errors.
Fuck this shit.
I need VS2013.
That will fix all my problems.
 
@rubenvb How will that help?
 
It should add initializer_list constructors to the std containers.
And support variadic templates.
At least, the compiler did back in November.
 
I want more than that :(
 
6:32 PM
The MSVC library is feature complete, except a true variadic tuple.
 
Guess I"ll have to buy a new PC and install linux
 
@AndyProwl Virtualbox.
 
@AndyProwl GCC 4.8.1 and trunk Clang are sweet.
 
@rubenvb I still cannot install it on this laptop. It's a company laptop, I can't install whatever I want
 
oh. That blows.
Just install Linux on an external HDD. Boot from that.
 
6:34 PM
@LucDanton Indeed. Yesterday I managed to build trunk Clang with an older GCC but it did not have C++11 stdlib support
 
Clang is not a standard library.
 
But I could try return type deduction and other stuff
 
It uses either libc++ or libstdc++.
I'd suggest you figure out a way to get libc++ working on linux (it should), and is also feature complete.
 
@rubenvb Yes, it was using libstdc++ that came with the MinGW I used to build Clang
 
Eh, not crazy about supported C++1y language features just yet.
 
6:35 PM
@LucDanton I actually wanted to try generic lambdas, and there is a version of Clang that supports them
But if I can't build Clang, or if I have to have an old and a new version of MinGW to allow building clang on the one hand, and using GCC 4.8.1 on the other hand... that's just too much
I killed two days trying to make it work
 
hmm
 
Should've come here earlier :)
 
time travel from possible futures is impossible
 
@AndyProwl I once commented that (if you value your time) "free" software is often the most expensive kind. That was 10+ years ago, and while it's a little less true now than it was then, it's still not nearly as false as you'd like.
 
@JerryCoffin Absolutely
 
6:39 PM
You're just bad at it.
 
I guess the part about toying with extremely experimental new language features for which you need just that development version of one certain compiler, has nothing to do with anything.
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm aware of it
 
Can someone look at this graph from my github repo. Does it show a blue line tracking the total number of lines of code?
 
@CatPlusPlus Probably. I prefer writing code to sorting out other peoples' messes.
 
It used to for me but hasn't for several weeks now ;-(
 
6:41 PM
Not saying C++ tools aren't horribly bad
 
@Code-Guru I don't see any blue line.
 
@rubenvb Nevermind generic lambdas, that was more of a curiosity of mine. I just want to have the latest Clang (trunk, 3.4) and the latest GCC (4.8.1) working on my laptop. I know the simplicity of my wish reveals how ignorant I am, but I don't think that one should be a hacker in order to be able to use two compilers.
 
@JerryCoffin ayight, thanks for checking. Maybe github removed that functionality. Too bad cuz I kind of liked seeing the trend line go up and up.
 
What problem do you have with GCC?
 
@Code-Guru Strange -- I'd be more interested in seeing a "functionality implemented" line go up with the amount of code stayed constant or even fell.
 
6:43 PM
@CatPlusPlus I cannot build Clang with any other version of GCC than 4.6
 
@AndyProwl GCC 4.8.1 is downloadable. Clang just doesn't work on Windows.
Use MSVC if you want a different compiler.
Or Intel.
But those all suck at C++11.
 
Exactly
 
So stick with GCC. And test Clang on Linux.
 
@AndyProwl Wanting trunk is wanting to hack.
 
@rubenvb That's what I was saying
I'll have to buy a new PC and install Linux
 
6:44 PM
Install Linux on an external HDD.
Or on a USB stick with persistence, and work on your laptop's HDD.
 
Or even use a LiveCD , or a virtual machine.
I'm not sure about compiling but I use a linux VM a lot at work. Mainly for developing things windows sucks at.
 
Huh, My SSD read speed is getting slower when I reach the end.
I thought these things were rectangular.
 
@rubenvb I tried this, but it crashes with error related to strerror_s in msvcrt.dll. Anyone knows anything?
 
@rubenvb Mine is definitively boxy, but the corner aren't that pointy.
 
@milleniumbug that's you using XP and hitting a known bug with MinGW-w64.
You can build Clang yourself with GCC 4.6.
 
6:48 PM
@rubenvb Ok, I'll try that next.
 
@milleniumbug Make sure you add your GCC version number to this Clang file: github.com/llvm-mirror/clang/blob/master/lib/Frontend/…
It might be already there, then forget what I said :)
 
How do you
 
Well, I wish I could say I understand all this stuff, but in fact, I don't. I have no idea why Clang built with GCC 4.6 can't use stdlib that comes with GCC 4.8. I was just hoping I could somehow manage to figure it out, but now I see I won't
 
@AndyProwl The compiler it's built with doesn't matter.
 
@AndyProwl GCC and Clang produce different code. Linking that different code to each other crashes. Or produces linker errors.
 
6:51 PM
it matters that Clang's run-time ABI details don't quite match GCC run-time ABI details.
 
It's like MSVC runtime versions. You don't want to mix those either.
At the time of Clang 3.2 and GCC 4.6 everything was on par with each other. We got lucky. Then there was no one to care.
 
@DeadMG So Clang's ABI is only compatible with GCC 4.6's ABI?
 
@AndyProwl Clang on Windows' ABI yes.
 
I see
 
Clang on Linux is fine with newer stuff.
Because Linux has a stable ABI.
Windows, otoh, does not.
 
6:52 PM
Wait, what.
 
GCC devs must have known they'd break Clang when they changed their ABI
 
GCC has its own ABI. MSVC has its own ABI (note: name mangling and exception handling are part of the ABI).
 
Yeah, so?
 
@DeadMG GCC actually improved their compatibility with MSVC a bit. Clang didn't. Or it's not set up to do that for a MinGW build. Or whatever.
 
fuck MSVC
 
6:54 PM
That's not "unstable ABI" that's "C++ not specifying ABI".
 
which is bad.
anyway mixing binaries from different compilers is 99% headache
 
@rubenvb Yeah, but ABI-breaking change isn't the kind of thing you do silently. I mean, what about all of those people trying to be compatible between GCC 4.6 and GCC 4.7?
 
That different compilers exist is 100% headache.
 
My friend posted that on FB : You have 7.769606127403679e+73 candies!
 
@DeadMG The Changelog said what changed.
 
6:55 PM
@CatPlusPlus it wouldn't if there were 100% standards compliant
 
obviously not enough, or it would have been fixed long ago
 
@DeadMG Why is that?
 
@CatPlusPlus No. Any Standard or body could specify an ABI in an unstable manner. And there are de facto ABIs that are stable.
 
The point is nobody cares enough to fix it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Standard doesn't mandate any compiler interop.
 
6:56 PM
@CatPlusPlus well if no ABI is specified that's flawed standard not compilers
 
Luckily on the GCC side there's 3-4 people actively working on Windows improvements.
 
@JerryCoffin It's kind of hard to add a whole new feature and LOC to keep constant or decrease. =p
 
@LucDanton Note in response to "GCC has ABI, MSVC has different ABI".
 
@BartekBanachewicz Nah. The ABI for something like C++ has to be very platform-dependent- there's no way the Standard could set an ABI.
 
@BartekBanachewicz C++ can't specify ABI.
Welcome to the world of decade ago!
 
6:57 PM
@CatPlusPlus Use those arrows? :p
 
fuck C++ then. (jk)
 
@CatPlusPlus There was the Itanium ABI.
 
Always fuck C++.
 
the only reason C ever got a free ride is because the operating system set a de facto ABI that everyone else had to follow
2
else they would have the same problem, but replace "name mangling" with "which registers are used for argument passing"
 
C got lucky.
 
6:58 PM
too bad Terra is in so experimental stage
 
Love Live! - School Idol Project
 
@DeadMG that differs between OSes as well.
 
I swear, if they keep making me watch these Animes I'm going to kill myself. =l
 
ABI differences between OSes are not very relevant.
 
All the calling conventions Windows invented.
 
6:58 PM
@rubenvb Yeah, but the OS always sets a standard that everyone has to follow, and you usually have to recompile for different OS anyway.
so ABI differences between OSes are irrelevant really.
 
true true.
 
I wonder if we could go back 30 years
and make that shit proper at first try
 
Hah.
As-if.
 
the real problem with Windows is that Microsoft didn't publicly set a standard
 
how the world would look like
 
6:59 PM
they were in a position to be a de facto standard.
 

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