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12:27 AM
@crasic Below what zero?
 
@Mikhail Have you ever tried benchmarking single-rank vs. dual-rank memory on a memory-intensive application?
 
No, did you see anything?
 
The Japanese guy I worked with for the Pi records is having trouble matching my benchmarks with nearly identical hardware. The only difference is that his memory is single-rank whereas mine are dual-rank.
He's got 4 x 8GB @ 3600/16-16-16-36. And I've got 8 x 16GB @ 3466/16-18-18-38. So his memory is faster.
We both have the same 14-core chip. We clocked them to the same speed (3.7 GHz). And even though he has faster memory, my pi program runs 20% faster on my machine.
Both quad-channel.
 
Even for synthetics the differences are rarely above 2%
 
When we run the same CPU-only benchmark, the times are identical. So it has to be memory/cache related.
 
12:42 AM
How much difference?
Also his memory has better latency
 
For 1 billion digits of Pi, I'm getting 24.9 seconds. He's at 31 seconds.
 
@JerryCoffin Whatever makes most sense given the context...
 
Oh, thats huge
 
CPU utilization and everything is almost identical. So it's not background programs.
@Mikhail Exactly.
Unfortunately, I don't have any single-rank DDR4 sticks in any of my machines.
lol, even my laptop's 8GB sticks are dual-rank.
We also both have Gigabyte motherboards. Though mine is a more expensive one. But that shouldn't matter.
Unless there's some sort of memory throttling on his setup for having a cheaper board or something.
 
20% difference is too much for that
 
12:47 AM
I've seen cases where specific timings can cause really bad behavior. For example, CL18 on my board results in half the memory bandwidth of CL17 and CL19. So I asked him to try other timings. But his response isn't clear due to the language barrier.
 
Maybe he's got some malware?
Or wrong core count?
 
Those checkout. The CPU utilization #'s are the same along with the core-counts that the program reports.
This is his second set of memory.
 
Could be something really wacky like a fucked up driver
 
His first set was a lower-end 2666 set. He wasn't able to match my performance. So I pointed out that he needed to OC the memory.
So he traded it for a 3600 set. And got even worse performance.
 
For example, I had DVD-ROM that would fuck with DPC latency on Windows 10, caused a walltime 5% performance regression because it made condition variable response times slower
 
12:49 AM
Which makes me really think that it's memory-related.
His benchmarks with 2666 are consistent with mine when I downclock my memory to 2666.
 
But the difference in memory speed isn't 20%
 
How does the difference scale as a function of digits of PI
 
I also asked him to run his current memory at the same settings as either mine or his 1st set. But either he didn't get the message, or I don't understand his response due to the language barrier.
@Mikhail Between 2666 and 3466 is 30%. While the program is memory-bound, it's not that memory bound where the 30% different would be fully reflected in the benchmark times.
 
@crasic difference of what?
 
12:54 AM
Sounds like you should work on resolving communications issues so you can run a controlled experiment.
@Mysticial Difference in performance between the two set ups
 
11 mins ago, by Mysticial
For 1 billion digits of Pi, I'm getting 24.9 seconds. He's at 31 seconds.
We've only tested that one size.
 
@Mysticial That is one data point on that relationship
it may be illluminating to see how constant or not this offset is.
 
With his old set of memory (2666), we get nearly identical benchmarks for all sizes (when I downclock my memory to match his).
 
I'd say the memory rank thing is a red haring, and your code is actually very memory bound, this is obvious from the RAM speed change being approximately the walltime change.
good work
 
@Mikhail Even if it is, it doesn't explain why he's 20% slower with a higher memory clock and with tighter timings.
 
12:58 AM
Oh, I misread it, I thought they were + correlated
 
Everything about his first set of memory (2666) was right on target. It's just this second set that seems to be a red herring.
The other problem is that they don't really make high-speed 8GB DIMMs that are single-rank. And he doesn't seem to need 64GB.
He's long since left the record-breaking scene. But he still plays around with these smaller machines.
 
That is Keith Haring
This is Red Herring
 
^ Is this a kind of shit post bait?
 
I'm not trying to bait anyone, but really trying to find a red herring by keith haring
@Mikhail >I'd say the memory rank thing is a red haring,
 
@crasic Have you ever been to Photonics Europe?
 
1:06 AM
Nope, never
 
Photonics West is a good conference for vendors but I had trouble talking science
Wondering if Photonics Europe is going to be a similiar mess
 
I don't know, it seems like a convention that calls itself a conference
 
lie to me
 
I'm sure it will be great!
But thats not the most important question
the Important question is
will the grant cover it?
 
@crasic In an unrelated note, somebody told me that a acid piranha clean works much better when its heated. Ever tried?
Its doing something but I was expecting something with more Macbeth to it
Also SC1 wasn't able to get this 1.518 oil immersion off my wafer
 
1:19 AM
All sounds greek to me, but "acid piranha clean" sounds like something I would like to try
 
I thought you worked in a fab?
I guess you're not cool
 
Process Tool supplier
lol no,
It's boring, but better to be Levi's and not a 49er ;)
 
Is there some good chat website for people who fab silicon wafers? Hanging out in a clean room with bottles of hf is my new hobby :-)
@crasic I don't get the reference?
 
Levi's made jeans for gold miners and became wealthy, wheras most miners never hit gold and of those who did most of them drank it away or had it stolen
Nope, don't know any. It's a pretty secretive business I highly doubt anything like that exists outside of hobby
or scientist
You can try reaching out to Berkeley nano lab? They are a in-house fab at UC Berkeley
Maybe have a mailing list or something
 
I just wanted to get better
 
1:27 AM
Sounds neato
haha, snooped before you deleted
 
I can see it anyway. :)
 
Fuck them, they're our school's competitor
 
Reach out to these guys, they may have stuff to help you develop your course
Lol, just a Grad student and already making enemies, not a good start
 
lol
 
1:30 AM
@Mikhail How can they be a competitor? They are a core facility, they sell services to your competitors
 
We have a core facility, we compete with the school on ranking.
 
@crasic When I was in grad school, I pissed off a professor so much that he sent me an email implying that he wanted me dead.
 
@Mikhail Ok? But you specifically asked about ways to talk shop with other fab folks, I assumed you already checked in house, but now you are closing the door because they compete?
Last time I offer friendly connection suggestions
@Mysticial Did he forget or forgive you?
 
@crasic Neither. He despises me.
 
Eugh, did you sleep with his wife?
 
1:33 AM
lolno
 
At this point may as well
 
but don't do anything sexual, that would be weird
 
Long story short. He's one of the those FOSS evangelicals. And his research area of expertise is precisely in the large number arithmetic field. And he really didn't like the fact that I refused to open source y-cruncher or release any useful details of the critical algorithms.
 
bet he didn't like LLVM
Also FOSS evangelicals don't have wives
 
Thats pretty unprofessional, IMO
@Mikhail I was going to contradict you because I was certain RMS was married
good thing I double checked
 
1:39 AM
 
lol
 
See, its not about the appearance, plenty of ugly married people
its about the personality ;)
 
fuck it, I'm going to slowly dump by gnu memes
 
Beat that horse
 
In retrospect I don't have many of these
hss never seen ring 3 in his life
 
1:44 AM
@crasic Unprofessional, yes. But I'm not surprised by the behavior. His research area has nearly a perfect overlap with the stuff that I do in my free time. And I basically beat him at it while I was still in school. People who are really competitive will probably get ticked off by that.
Since then, his publications are more theoretical and math-focused. Not so much on the implementation side.
 
Negativity, yes, but "want you dead"? In my experience this is a sign of too many eggs in one basket.
 
BTW, ever wonder how much landfill there really is in San Francisco?
 
If you want to find shit posts on San Francisco or California in general, just go to any right-wing site.
 
1:50 AM
I'm a big fan of San Diego
 
I'm not shit posting :( I was sharing my side project
 
SF really pisses me off because I don't see an even mix of society
Is your side project about shit?
 
@Mikhail I agree that too many entitled fucks that think its more approriate to map the shit to gawk at it is a problem
brittle spirits
 
that's not a sentence
 
There are no rules in english fool
 
2:03 AM
@Mikhail I didn't know about that. Even though I'm from the area, I don't regularly go up to SF.
I stay in the suburbs.
At least downtown Chicago doesn't have random shit in the streets. The only time I've seen actual shit in the street, it was accompanied by a person with a dog and the person was picking it up in a plastic bag.
 
Its a very SF thing
Chicago is going to green up in a month
 
Good for it
 
@Mikhail Based on the way the weather is now, I'd say that's probably not happening until July. lol
 
@crasic You don't understand what winter is
 
This winter is way longer than it should've been.
 
2:07 AM
That fucking groundhog died
 
what?
 
The groundhog saw his shadow, so we were fucked
 
It's been more than fucking 6 weeks.
 
@Mysticial Shit is a dog whistle for homeless. There isn't shit downtown but near encampments, it doesn't surprise me that people don't shit in the street when the weather is below freezing
 
Yeah but there were many groundhogs
 
2:08 AM
@crasic OTOH, I don't see people shit in the subways either. But they do piss there.
 
I was going to mention that for whatever reason, there is less pervasive piss like in every major city on the planet
 
And the thing about subway elevators.
 
Abandon all hope those who enter
 
Clearly never tried to park in downtown :-)
 
theres an app for that now
 
2:11 AM
does it say the words "no"?
 
@crasic For pissing in subway elevators?
 
For reserving/identifying open meters
 
Ain't nobody got money to park in the city, parking garages will charge you like $30. If you're single thats like $30 per person.
 
@Mikhail The property tax on my downtown parking spot is about 1 grand a year.
 
noice
 
2:15 AM
@Mysticial Can you sleep in your car?
 
@crasic It won't be comfortable.
 
Is that your way of telling us you have a cool sports car?
 
@crasic No. It means that parking is expensive in downtown Chicago.
 
I assumed property tax = you bought a spot
and comfort was physical comfort
 
Can you resell the spot?
Wait, it isn't actually on the street right?
 
2:18 AM
@crasic Yes, I bought a spot. It was part of a larger purchase of a condo unit in the same building.
 
Yeah, not worth it, may as well take the condo
 
If you want to rent a parking spot in downtown, it's usually $250 - 300/month.
 
Sounds about right, I had to pay $100 in berkeley, and that was a subburb!
As in, when renting a place, if you wanted the parking spot too it was $100 more
 
Sorry, its $50 bucks with my apartment
 
@Mikhail It was like 400 for the semester at UIUC.
But of course I had to walk a quarter mile to it from my dorm.
 
2:26 AM
Balls, street parking is $80 a month in tickets
goddamn street sweeping
biggest racket in government
 
I don't live in the dorms because I'm an adult?
 
@Mikhail Being in the dorms was easier and cheaper for me anyway. Didn't have to clean the place. And didn't have to pay for my own power.
 
Lol, what? You still have to clean...
Oh you mean the shared bathrooms
 
@Mikhail They're not shared at Daniels Hall.
They come in once a week and clean it for you.
 
But somebody still cleans them for you?
That's weird
 
2:38 AM
If you have financial aid, you can usually get more of your housing and food covered too
 
financial aids
 
2:54 AM
That feel when you think the WinNT's API is trying to pick a fight with you: ULARGE_INTEGER
 
 
3 hours later…
6:15 AM
@Mysticial Two days is longer than it should be. Snow should only ever fall above 8000 feet, on ground that's tilted at least 30 degrees.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:51 AM
hi all...
i am trying learn c++11
i am getting an error where i am resetting a local variable (non POD struct) but application is generating core dump
gdb is thowing me this

0 0x00000032aec325e5 in raise () from /lib64/libc.so.6
#1 0x00000032aec33dc5 in abort () from /lib64/libc.so.6
#2 0x00000032b50bea8d in __gnu_cxx::__verbose_terminate_handler() () from /usr/lib64/libstdc++.so.6
#3 0x00000032b50bcbe6 in ?? () from /usr/lib64/libstdc++.so.6
#4 0x00000032b50bcc13 in std::terminate() () from /usr/lib64/libstdc++.so.6
#5 0x00000032b50bcd32 in __cxa_throw () from /usr/lib64/libstdc++.so.6
#6 0x00000032b50bd12d in operator new(unsigned long) () from /usr/lib64/libstdc++.so.6
application is not leaking memory...i have checked it...
 
@quidstone you should ask a question on SO with actual code
 
i just need to know what should i look for in this stack trace...
thanks i know...
but i dont know how to phrase my question when it is about a local variable reseting..
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix i am trying to get a hint about anything here...
 
Ask a question with the code and the stack trace and then edit the question as needed. A stack trace alone is not enough and you won't find much answer in the lounge
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix okay thank you...cheers:)
 
 
3 hours later…
10:54 AM
@Mysticial o_0 they clean university students rooms? jfc
 
 
5 hours later…
3:24 PM
^ Should try this myself. I can hardly believe it.
 
https://gizmodo.com/our-first-look-at-amds-second-generation-ryzen-cpu-is-p-1825366110
/cc @Mysticial
Kinda bummed it wasnt de 2700X but wtv still interesting
 
Ven
@StackedCrooked Same...
 
3:44 PM
@Borgleader No surprises. It's just a refresh.
The CPU stuff is going to remain stagnant through 2018.
Architecturally at least.
I'm not going to comment on the Intel 40th Anniversary rumor thing other than to say that I'm going to comment on it.
But 2019 is going to be a bloodbath if the roadmaps for Intel and AMD remain on track.
 
4:08 PM
@Mysticial Reminds me of when the 486 came out. From a business viewpoint, it's huge. From a technical viewpoint, it's a huge yawn.
 
@Mysticial Seriously considering a Ryzen 2 at this point. I'm well past upgrade date on this machine but have held off consistently for Cannonlake/Ryzen2
 
@Mysticial My upgrades consideration will be affected by if (not) I can get rid of the random hangs
 
user406009
It's a shame I just bought a Ryzen 1600 a couple of months ago (back in December)
 
We'll probably see a Threadripper refresh with the 12nm this year.
But other than that, I doubt much of anything else.
 
@Mgetz I might consider an original Ryzen if the prices drop substantially when the Ryzen 2 is easily available. Still quite a jump from what I'm running now (A8 7600) and still fits my view that programmers should generally use trailing edge CPUs (to encourage writing code that works well for others, not just the top-end machine like they run).
 
4:15 PM
@JerryCoffin at this point I'm waiting for silicon without SPECTER and MELTDOWN
as well as AVX2
also this is my gaming machine, my coding machine is a much weaker laptop
 
@Mgetz My guess is mid-2019 at the earliest.
 
@Mysticial highly unlikely this machine will implode by then, but that will make it harder to resell the parts
 
user406009
@JerryCoffin Yeah, but saving on compilation time is a clear win regardless of how slow or fast your application is
 
@Lalaland That would be a case to get a high core-count, but low clock speed processor.
Like Knights Landing. :)
 
user406009
I really wish we had some big-little processors available for sale. Like 1 or 2 high speed cores and a bunch of cheap, low power and slow other cores
 
4:26 PM
@StackedCrooked Ehh... it's easy to check if you randomly start sending traffic to random servers. There is a better way to test this.
@StackedCrooked also, lol; look at 5:17 - that's BEFORE he talks about dogs and there's a dog advert there ^^
good thing he "has conclusive evidence" on that
 
@ScarletAmaranth that's after he talks about dogs
 
oh, sorry, my bad!
 
Ven
@ScarletAmaranth did you just go off youtube comments..?
 
Ven
||
 
4:36 PM
no, I just skimmed through the video - still, there's an easy way to check
 
@Mysticial I'm too cheap for that. Maybe I should get a big FPGA, and replicate a lot of 8086's in it... :-)
Or maybe I should just get back to the work I should be doing right now. I think 256 cores at 1 GHz fits the description...
 
nwp
I would be amused if faster processors that you can turn off sooner would be more efficient.
 
5:07 PM
@Ven i was in the middle of an OW game and didnt realize the focus had switched to SO
woops
 
@nwp That was Intel's argument against things like ARMs for quite a while. Doesn't generally work out though. As you increase the clock speed, power increases linearly just from increasing the clock speed.So, as long as you use the same voltage, you're basically getting done sooner, and consuming the same total power to do the work. But, to increase clock speed much, you usually have to bump up the voltage. This gives linear increase in speed, but quadratic increase in power usage.
So, to minimize power usage you usually want to use the lowest voltage you can and clock it at fast as possible for that voltage.
 
@JerryCoffin More than quadratic: frequency * voltage^2
Not that it changes anything...
On my chip, I can go from 3.8 GHz (165W) to 4.7 GHz (380W).
 
@Mysticial Sure, but as already discussed, the linear increase from frequency doesn't really matter much.
 
But if you include the power draw of the rest of the system (memory, video card, mobo, storage devices, fans, etc...) it may be economical to go with an inefficient power draw at higher frequencies if the intent is to shutdown the entire system completely when you're done.
not that anyone actually does that...
 
@Mysticial Sure they do. Windows calls it "Sleep" (Or Hibernate, etc.)
 
5:29 PM
@Mysticial actually this would be interesting if any OS supported using them that way. Not sure make supports that yet...
maybe we should write gmake that allows you to do that
 
@Mgetz Knights Landing works on Windows.
Only up to 256 logical cores though.
 
@Mysticial yeah that's sort of what I don't want
 
So you won't be able to run the 68-core or 72-core model with full 4-way HT.
But the lower end (and most popular) model with 64 cores fits perfectly.
 
I would rather have explicit scheduling of processes on it. Basically a queue that then gets distributed on to it
 
It gets tricky with the processor group thing.
You'll have 4 processor groups with 64 vcores each.
 
5:31 PM
I don't think you can do it without treating it like a graphics card TBH
 
You'll need to explicitly schedule stuff into a specific group as the OS will not do that for you. But within a group, the OS will do its usual thing (which is acceptable in most cases).
@Mgetz There are libraries that will provide that flat all-to-all abstraction for you: Cilk, and I assume TBB as well.
They'll handle the load-balancing across processor groups.
 
@Mysticial ah, yeah that would work but honestly I was just pondering
 
I had to do something similar in my pi program, but my version is a lot less sophisticated and it makes no guarantees about balancing since it relies largely on randomization.
It's hard to do better without having access to such hardware.
 
given I've never seen a commercially available KL card... yeah
 
I don't think they ever sold the KNL cards. Just the host systems.
 
5:35 PM
I've always been under the impression that if you needed one you know someone at intel
 
You can buy a KNL system for 5 grand USD.
 
@Mysticial dumb question: what would KNL get me that the latest Nvidia card doesn't?
 
@Mgetz x86
 
shrug
 
And the ability to boot on them as a host processor.
I don't know exactly how they measure up, but I won't be surprised if KNL beats GPUs in areas that GPUs are weak at: double precision, 64-bit integer multiply, branch-heavy code, pointer-chasing, etc...
I think the main selling point is that you can just throw CPU applications on it without having to rewrite them for GPU.
 
5:41 PM
@Mysticial why not just toss a couple hundred atoms in a box and call it done?
 
@Mgetz That's exactly what KNL is. A bunch of Atom processors - but equipped with AVX512.
 
or is that essentially what KNL is but with AVX512
yeah...
 
If they got rid of the AVX512, they could probably double up the core-count. Since I read somewhere that the AVX512 register file is as big as the Atom core itself.
 
@Mgetz Because very quickly, you run into problems with communication between the processors. Putting them on a single core like KNL lets you get fast communication between them. Their next generation is supposed to add on-core fast network controller, to get low-latency chip-to-chip communication as well.
 
@JerryCoffin I was being a bit flippant not disregarding this
 
5:57 PM
@Mgetz Once you add the on-chip network controller, you need to do the next step as well though--on-chip network doesn't help much when your average Ethernet router takes a few thousand clocks just to figure out where a packet needs to go, so you need better circuits to build routes through the router quickly (preferably one cycle, obviously).
 
@JerryCoffin ever hear of SI-Cortex?
 
@Mgetz Yup.
 
basically the same idea but a crap ton of MIPS chips IIRC, we ran into them at SC08 during the cluster competition
 
@Mgetz ...except if memory serves, they used an on-board PCIe controller instead of an actual network (but yeah, pretty much the same general idea).
 
I don't remember the specifics, it struck me as a gimmick at the time. True GPGPU would have been a lot more interesting, and that's what the MIT team was going to do, but they weren't interested in the competition but rather in getting a 25 million dollar grant which they apparently lost.
 
6:10 PM
@Mgetz Useful for different classes of problems. GPGPU doesn't work well for things like traversing large graphs. I doubt anybody in the graph500 list (for one obvious example) uses GPUs for any significant part of the task.
 
@JerryCoffin Given the loads in competition it would have been viable to run GPGPU and a regular CPU insofar as you had multiple nodes. you probably could have gotten at least 4 nodes in under power budget. More if you played with the GPU size to efficiency ratio
 
@Mgetz Fair enough--depending on what sort of competition it was, GPGPU could easily be the optimal solution. They certainly bring a lot of power to the table, so if you can apply it (even reasonably well) to the task at hand, they can work really well.
 
@JerryCoffin IIRC it was LINPACK, GAMESS, a Phylogenetic sorter that I don't remember the name of, and another linear algebra package
you could have easily run any of the ones requiring a BLAS on the GPUs while running something that doesn't use BLAS at the same time on the CPUS
 
@Mgetz Yeah, certainly for Linpack, it's going to be really hard to be GPUs.
 
@JerryCoffin tbh they never even tried, their professor showed up with a single mobo and two AMD cards. He never did get linpack working and his students all bailed on him when the grant fell through.
he was cool though
this was also the year they announced Roadrunner and Jaguar
neither of which exist now
 
6:19 PM
I suppose I should add the disclaimer that I have a fairly specific idea about how the problem of building routes through a router can be done well. patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?patentnumber=9942146
 
@JerryCoffin The most promising I've seen in years (which I hope is in the prior art on that one) was the concept of a hashing flow router.
 
@Mgetz Not prior art. Related art. Patents use terminology very specifically. "Prior art" specifically means something that invalidates a patent. Something similar (but not similar enough to invalidate) is related art.
 
@JerryCoffin honestly the patent you linked I couldn't make heads or tails of. I suspect it's void for vagueness
 
@Mgetz Deciding that would be up to a court (of course), but I seriously doubt it.
 
@JerryCoffin Or IPRB
 
6:27 PM
@Mgetz Ill-Prepared Right-handed Bunt?
 
@JerryCoffin I apparently got the acronym wrong it's actually PTAB
 
6:47 PM
@Mgetz Ah, so you meant an inter-parte review. Anything's possible, of course. When you look past the abstract, and into the specification, you'll find that this has quite a lot of detail though.
 
@JerryCoffin potentially, I'm not a fan of patents in general as I feel they completely fail at their intended purpose (getting people to reveal trade secrets in exchange for a temporary monopoly)
 
@Mgetz I can say with certainty that it worked in this case. I think it's probably true with almost al patents that apply to ICs as well. For most practical purposes, you could keep circuits secret indefinitely if you wanted to.
For a while, that didn't mean much--technology moved so fast that everything was obsolete long before a patent expired. That's not nearly so true any more though (and may never be again, at least with respect to semiconductor fab and such).
 
@JerryCoffin not sure what in that patent is new, I'm looking at it and I can pretty much invalidate the first few claims pretty quickly
I realize the lawyers write these things to be expansive but describing basic routing with buffers is not new, it was invented in 1967
looks at name on patent, prepares for boot
 
hahaha... looks like one of the reviewers finally used one of the newer versions:
 
@Mysticial let me guess that chip has AVX2?
 
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