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12:00 AM
@CaptainGiraffe I don't know enough about other Pascal compilers for DOS/Windows to comment meaningfully on them. All the other Pascal implementations I used were on older computers. On a Z80, you didn't expect floating point to be fast or conform with any fancy-schmancy standards... :-)
 
@JerryCoffin I'm quite uncertain about the correctness of my memories from that time =) The compiler would have had to come from a Magazine, maybe BYTE.
 
12:41 AM
@JerryCoffin eat your vegetables
 
12:59 AM
@jaggedSpire I do eat my vegetables. Just, the only vegetables I own are avocados. Or do you mean vegetable matter in general? 'cause I'm definitely down with some spoiled grape juice now and then... :-)
 
lol
 
1:12 AM
@JerryCoffin avocado, blessed be it's green mass of happiness, is a fruit
 
isn't it technically a berry?
It's not berry berry, I know
 
What defines a berry?
 
@crasic Halle Berry has that privilege, of course. But she's a who, not a what.
 
jww
Just made my radar... POSIX.1-2017 is now available. It was released last month.
 
 
4 hours later…
5:42 AM
man, Russian roskomannadzor got crazy blocking this Telegram thing.
they started to block a lot of amazon owned ips and things randomly stopped working
Now I can't even use duckduckgo and forced to fallback to google because duckduckgo randomly got blocked
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Are you in Russia? Run while you can.
 
6:16 AM
Running isn't going to help
My home country is to busy accepting refugee from hell know where than allowing family member of its citizens to come back home.
I heard they're going to welcome around 400 refugee/illegal immigrant per day during this summer. But honest citizen have to wait around 8 months for their application to be accepted.
Immigrant will get help and a basic income of around 500-600$ but I'll have to support all the possible fees to support my wife.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:59 AM
@sehe Sure, you can't escape that nearly ever lib is ooobsesed, but the code you write can be done in a functional way, if you want. But my main point was that you don't have to throw interfaces and impls and managers and facades and every other pattern at every problem
And I think that I might prefer the syntactic sugar of data.fn() over fn(data), especially when you want to chain a lot of such functions. data.fnA().fnB().fnC() is much easier to read and work with IMO than fnC(fnB(fn(A(data)))
 
8:16 AM
@thecoshman that's like saying you can put a decent pair of pedals in your Fort sedan, and it'll be as healthy, or at least as much of exercise, as riding a mountain bike
Of course you can. But it doesn't remove the bias. Which is real. And significant.
It's like saying
@thecoshman You know. Boiling down the vices of Java into "it says data.fnA(), not fnA(data) is pretty redonkulous
@thecoshman Law of Demeter applies to any style of programming IMO. I find both versions of that bad
 
@sehe sure, but it was more of a side point
@sehe Demeter?
@sehe lack of intermediates?
 
@thecoshman Why make side points :/ Is it to distract from a weak main point :)(
@thecoshman Excess responsibility/coupling
 
@sehe We, may point wasn't saying much, just that you don't have to write everything in Java in a oo fanatical way vOv
 
@thecoshman If you want to make it nice and functional you can do this ((compose fnA fnB fnC) data) or simply (compose fnA fnB fnC data)
 
@sehe what do you mean?
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I guess yeah
 
8:26 AM
function are interface but you can add construct to call them. And it's consistent as using the dot operator could make it difficult to understand if you call a property or are actually composing anything
 
@thecoshman That it's not about intermediates. It's about coupling. Functions express functionality. If that functionality assumes/depends on the type of multiple layers of transformations before it can do what it needs (a(b(c(d(e(X))))) then it knows to much or tries to do too much.
 
In that case you could have methods that just abstract it
especially if you're going to repeat it
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix precisely. If a function requires an "X", just pass it an "X", not something else that you have to "get and X from". That knowledge is unrelated.
 
@sehe isn't that more just about how you write the calls?
ie fnA(fnB(Y)) vs X x = fnB(Y); fnA(x)
 
What the hell. That's the whole topic. It was your topic.
And no the intermediate doesn't relieve the function from excess knowledge.
4 mins ago, by sehe
@thecoshman That it's not about intermediates. It's about coupling. Functions express functionality. If that functionality assumes/depends on the type of multiple layers of transformations before it can do what it needs (a(b(c(d(e(X))))) then it knows to much or tries to do too much.
 
8:32 AM
@sehe sure but there times that might be just the actual code you need in your funcX
 
but either way, fnA() just takes an X it doesn't care how it get's there. Or are you more on about is fnA() a free function that can take many types, or just a member function of type X?
@sehe because I don't really get what you mean here
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix That's very rare. Very. But yeah, there's got to be a place in the program where you link the operations to the context.
And that place should be very well bounded and with very clear, self documenting responsibilities :0
 
@sehe very 'ceal'?
clear?
 
@thecoshman Precisely "takes an X it doesn't care how it get's there": so code like data.fnA().fnB().fnC() nor fnC(fnB(fn(A(data))) should really arise
14 mins ago, by sehe
@thecoshman Law of Demeter applies to any style of programming IMO. I find both versions of that bad
 
I've written things like that where most methods are filtering an input to something else. There is no need to know intermediate results but you need the whole filter to be applied but at the same time you need to split your filter in multiple layers of transformation for debugging and writing modular code
 
8:36 AM
@sehe but either way, you could do fnC(new ThingC()) or new ThingC().fnC() the function doesn't care where this instance of C came from...
or am I still missing your point here
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Also known as Linq disease.
Of course. I figure that there's always going to be 90% of the code expressing "pure" logic and 10% of the code cobbling it all together. It's the cobbling-together-parts that might use "deep" dependency traversal like this. That should not guide your choice programming paradigm, though.
 
that said a(b(c(d(e(x)))) could be rewritten like this:
x = e(x)
x = d(x)
x = c(x)
x = b(x)
r = a(x)
except may be not changing x
 
I really don't get what the issues is with chaining function calls though... (as in foo.fnA().fnB().fnC()
 
@thecoshman Your own argument was based on the degenerate example. I didn't do that (in fact I dismissed it if it were for that)
 
Ven
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix with SSA, x never changes
 
8:38 AM
Well, you've confused the fuck out of me
 
You're only confused because you don't often think about the simple things you use everyday
 
The moment when people forget what they're actually arguing about
 
@sehe what?
I was saying that Java doesn't have to be used in a OOP obsessed way that people classically like to mock it for, and followed up by saying that I kinda like the syntactic sugar of 'oop style' function chaining, opposed to nesting function calls in each other.
I don't get why picking out one feature that I liked is considered boiling my entire argument down
And I think that this LoD doesn't apply to either of the examples I gave
in either case fnC() does not depend on how you write the code that invokes it
You would have to be making assumptions about how things are implemented to decide that it 'knows too much'
 
@thecoshman And all I said is that that requires disproportionate amounts of effort swimming against the stream and realistically only works in most recent Java anyways
@thecoshman Lolwut.
 
When you're talking about function chaining do you mean the pattern where you return this or just the ability to call methods of returned objects?
 
8:50 AM
@sehe perhaps. But I think you can fairly happily confine such issues to 'borders' of your code, where you are interacting with external libs, though yeah, there will be plenty of times you just can't do that easily enough.
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix maybe not return this. foo.fnA() returns something, on that something, you can call .fnB()
in a more function/immutable style, fnA() would not return 'this'
so the latter
 
@thecoshman Truish. If all the functions have the codomain and domain, e.g.. That's a pretty weird special case to consider here (it would apply to samples like add(5, multiply(3, 4, subtract(1, 7)))` perhaps)
 
I'd say it's all fine.
 
just like fnA(foo) returns ~something~ that can be passed into fnB()
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix The latter. The former is "fluent style" (and is pretty ugly for me for other reasons, mainly being abused for cutesy-pantsy semi-DSL libraries that ... end up being hard to use :))
@thecoshman We were specifically discussing exactly (and only) the invocation
 
@sehe multiply doesn't care where that '3' comes from, it just wants a number. I could directly swap it with a say, something that asks for user input. multiply doesn't care, it jsut wants an int
 
8:54 AM
Yawn. I was specifically constructing an example where I could grant you that there's no problem.
 
@sehe I am fairly sure I said syntactic sugar... how you write the code...
 
Yeah it's fine to some extent. I'm more against those that try to compose using mutable objects. A bit like instead of calling func(a, b, c) you'd end up with compose(func).call(a).call(b).call(c)
 
@sehe yeah, I think we can all agree that returning 'this' so that you can keep calling functions on the same object i one line is ergh...
 
the main goal being that you can pass parameters as a callable object somewhere else
 
@thecoshman The syntactic sugar gains nothing unless in your degenerate examples?
 
8:55 AM
nice to know the term 'fluent style' though
 
@thecoshman Well. It's not bad w.r.t. coupling or responsibility :) So, that's another topic
 
the problem when you return this to be able to chain call is that you have method that return something meaningless
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Yeah, that latter is not that nice. Though, quite common in Java... I think it was a bit a phase that's other...
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix well, I think it makes sense if you drink the OOP koolaide
@sehe Like most syntactic sugar things? It's a small nicety that we don't need.
 
Syntactic sugar is a nice thing to have. I wonder how people would write LinQ without syntactic sugar
It's like the difference between an ORM that generate sql queries and writing them manually
but orm don't always make the most efficient queries one would say
 
Ven
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix lambdas..?
 
9:07 AM
@thecoshman To summarize: no you don't have to obsess. But that doesn't make Java an environment were nice code happens without much effort.
 
Nice never happens without much effort :P
It's a constant fight to fend of the terrible terrible crap people want to produce
 
@thecoshman Personally, my gripes with "fluent style" are that it glorifies mutability (in fact, it glorifies "n-step initialization", where I already hate 2-step initialization)
@thecoshman You can decide to find a spot where the wind takes you in the right direction :)
 
@sehe The main usage I've seen with it is 'builders'
 
Ven
yes, and with... are just smalltalk-cascade-d setters.
 
But they are clearly hiding the root problem, the thing you are trying to 'build' is badly designed. But sometimes you can't do much with that, like lib stuff
 
9:21 AM
Nah. It's like I said: they are going for cutesy-pantsy "natural reading" API
 
Ven
oh no not nature
 
kinda like makeHTMLDOC().addElement(makeElement()).addElement(makeElement()) etc. etc.
 
resource().BeChatty().About(ManyThings().When(Condition1, WindDirectionMatches("NNW")) e.g.
@thecoshman in that particular case it is actually building a tree, so there's that.
 
Ven
@thecoshman no that's not n-step init
 
@sehe god damn it, it is :P
Ah, but I've such similar stuff done very well in the likes of some unit testing lib that I can't recall the name of right now
 
Ven
9:25 AM
@thecoshman mocha
 
Maybe
but it's not doing, afaik, 'return this'
 
Ven
well mocha+shouldjs give code like this.obj.should.have.property('id').which.is.a.Number()
4
I wish I were joking but that's the first line of code in their documentation page.
 
Oh god, that's awful
 
@thecoshman yup. Like I said, my gripe is with glorified n-step initialization. In fact node.addElement() can be fully transparent and return immutable nodes
@Ven Oh god. I'm twitching
 
no, it's some asserting thing, so you get like assertThat(output, isEqualTo(expected))
 
Ven
9:28 AM
Poe's law in action really.
 
@sehe maybe writing good code can naturally happen :P
 
Ven
Insofar as "natural" things do not exist, all good code is natural.
 
@Ven Math is natural:)
 
@sehe oooh... I don't know about that there now...
 
9:51 AM
hello guys
here's a translated stackoverflow mirror site
cool that someone has set up an agregator website with automatic translation like that
every answer and question contain a permalink to SO, cool
I think it's a community effort to make SO available for Russian speakers
wow, turns out SO encourages sharing of content with proper attribution! ok, forget about it then.
 
erm... ok... moving on
 
yeah, at first I felt like "it's stolen".. then checked properly and it turned out to be in the spirit of SO
I really hate it when someone's effort is stolen
 
10:06 AM
Sure... but this isn't the place for such issues... there is a meta site where you could probably raise such concerns, maybe in one of the chat rooms over therer
 
ok, thanks for sharing the knowledge
note taken
 
Just seems so random
 
from your perspective I understand why it does
from mine - this is the room where I typically hang out .. well, I've overreacted anyway
 
Oh, well I've never seen you in here before, but then, I've not been here much for the last year or two
 
10:24 AM
@Ven only if you imply that lambda aren't syntactic sugar
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix couldn't you argue that it's all syntactic sugar over binary?
 
Of course
 
Ven
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I do
 
even asm is syntactic sugar
 
Ven
Lambdas are the only thing not syntactic sugar. They're the foundation.
 
10:41 AM
@Ven except they're not
 
Ven
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix yes they are
 
Ven
that's why it's called lambda calculus.
 
I'm referring to C# here
 
Ven
i'm referring to lambda calculus here
or linq calculus as I like to call it
 
10:42 AM
lambda calculus isn't a programming language per se
 
Ven
not with that attitude
 
 
2 hours later…
12:44 PM
@Ven wtf
 
1:09 PM
-7
Q: How can I implement automatic A/C and Fan Controlling system?

Zeeshan NoorIf A/c is running fast than fan automatic slow down and if fans is running faster than A/c must slow down.

/cc @Mysticial @milleniumbug
 
 
2 hours later…
2:46 PM
 
 
1 hour later…
4:03 PM
-5
Q: Can I get position in c++?

jaksiaI want to get computer position (GPS) in c++. Is it able to get it in c++? If yes how can I do it? Is it able to do with the system("..."); command?

 
with the system command? really? :D
 
@Borgleader LOL
 
@Borgleader Well, to be fair... it's none trivial how you do that... but it's a very vague question XD
 
that user has some fine looking questions
 
 
1 hour later…
5:30 PM
@Borgleader tagged "position", lol
The answer is obviously system("position")
 
whereami()
 
5:46 PM
@StackedCrooked system("echo \"position\"")
 
6:06 PM
@Mgetz UWP :(
 
@Borgleader if you're on windows even in a desktop app you can use that API without anything special. You just have to use the CPP/WINRT projection
 
6:40 PM
@Mgetz I tried to use the uh... WPF projection and found out that the errors I got meant I had to use a UWP project or wtw
and I was very sad
 
@Borgleader for what? I was able to use the CPP/WINRT projection just fine in a desktop app
 
@Mgetz I think I tried replicating the WPF button sample in a regular desktop app and was getting errors which when I looked them up pointed to needing to be in a UWP thing.
It was a few months ago I dont remember specifics.
 
@Borgleader yeah you can't do UWP UI bits, but the backend libs are usuable
you can do toast notifications though
those work
 
7:40 PM
The thing is like regular WPF apps (in C#) arent UWP afaik
so its a bit disappointing that the C++ one needs to be
 
@Borgleader you can use the libraries if you set the flag in the project. It's just annoying to do so. It also means you won't work on windows 7
 
 
2 hours later…
9:33 PM
@Mysticial I solved my overheating problem by halving the number of threads :-)
 
No Nitrogen?
 
No, but I have a bunch in lab, use it to freeze down our cells
Problem is that core temps go over 85c, but I've put fans on all the holes
 
Don't use it for the cells. Use it for the computer.
 
Might have to case mod
@Mysticial Also this "performance regression" is due to people complaining it was too cold in the room
 
10:07 PM
@Mikhail You can solve that by overclocking the computer.
 
under?
Anyways, more inlining levels will save us
I want a PCIe slot exhaust fan but they all look weak
newegg.com/Product/…-‌​9SIAA7W6YY8657--Product
$440 fan
 
10:24 PM
You should inline the PCIe exhaust fan along with the liquid nitrogen cooler into the computer.
 
Yeah, but the condensation will fuck over my parts
 
use flourinert for submersible computers
 
Condensation is just a side-effect. If you inline that as well, the compiler will be able to see what it's doing and properly optimize around it.
 
10:39 PM
I wonder what happens if you try to run electrons inside 18 mega-ohm water (like we use for device fab)
My gut reaction is that the dust/loose parts of the semiconductor increase the conductivity
 
looks fine to me
 
Ell
hi
 
10:57 PM
@Mikhail well, pure water is a good insulator, it's all the shit that dissolved in that makes it conduct so well
 
@thecoshman It is a reactive solvent and this is a problem, inert substances are more than just electrically insulating, they are inert and non-reactive
 
@crasic well yes, it has issues besides being conductive
 
@crasic I'll see your liquid nitrogen, and raise you to liquid helium.
Never mind that even at 8.43 GHz, a Bulldozer was slower than a current Intel at stock clock.
 
11:12 PM
I never realized that AMD was in heavy construction equipment
 
@crasic The code names they used for a particularly poor series of designs were "piledriver", "steamroller" and "bulldozer". But yes, at least to me it seems probable that at some point, somebody also built some heavy construction equipment that included an AMD part.
 
11:34 PM
@JerryCoffin naming technical designs after WWE moves is setting yourself up for failure .
In any case, the LHe is impressive just for managing the substance, most LHe setups use double Dewar with ln2 outside sleeve to limit evaporation, shits expensive yo
But I don't think it offers much of a benefit for cooling , since you don't want to cool much below zero...
 

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