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14:00
the campaign in modern warfare was pretty interesting
@Bartek have you tried playing the piano, because I've found that It's useful for experimenting with melodies.
@edition yes
I've learned Someone Like You recently
fun song
@BartekBanachewicz I play by ear.
apt for my mad piano skills
14:01
@edition I don't have musical talent/hearing, so I just print out notes :)
The times when was no porn-game-video
@BartekBanachewicz I can play your home country's anthem on the piano.
On a positive side I'm getting better at reading notes
Altough I still think the whole system is fcked up
basing everything on C-maj is just so arbitrary
@BartekBanachewicz yeah, maybe that's why I'm not so great at programming because, like playing the piano, I expect things to be understood intuitively, whereas you follow the rules. :)
I don't think that the C-maj is intuitive
it's full of exceptions and weird modulo arithmetic
14:06
@BartekBanachewicz that was just a generic statement.
I mean you have to understand and follow the rules in music as well
@BartekBanachewicz C doesn't have exceptions
@BartekBanachewicz yes.
except the framework for rules in music is terribly designed imho
cue "why can't you tune a piano" or "why a guitar can't be in tune"
and lol the most hilarious part, the bass clef
The best explanation for the state of things I've heard so far is that it was intentionally made complex for job security
@BartekBanachewicz yes, especially for operatic composers. :)
14:14
> Starting this summer the Hong Kong government plans to have 200,000 youths search Internet discussion sites for illegal copies of copyrighted songs and movies
lol
@DmitriBudnikov It's a joke
> China launches probe into Baidu over paid search listings after student dies following cancer treatment sourced online
https://ioquake3.org/
Quake 3 got a nice mod. #LongLifeQuacke3
14:29
@BartekBanachewicz why
why not? They're jumping pretty damn high on those
@BartekBanachewicz it costs like sex toy
@ProblemSlover I don't know what kind of sex toys do you possess that cost as much, and I don't want to know
@BartekBanachewicz neither me. but it looks like one. It was a veery popular toy in USSR countries
@Bartek maybe I should be a musician instead.
Ven
Ven
14:34
maybe.
@edition eay. screw C++..
there are more things to do in this world than music and c++
@BartekBanachewicz or I could jump off a tall building. kidding.
people who talk about their suicide publicly are just desperate attention whores, fyi
ah shit I think it's going to rain soon
Ven
Ven
usually, yeah.
14:36
and I need to do groceries
Ven
Ven
talking about suicide, does anyone use stash?
@Ven what kind of stash
Let's spend our life travelling Hitchhiking
Ven
Ven
bitbucket/stash
14:37
@ProblemSlover except not by hitchhiking, meh
I soooooooooooooo want a motorcycle so badly
the fact that there are two distinct motorbike shops on the other side of the street doesn't help
@BartekBanachewicz I hate to drive.. even a bike
motorcycles are cool
on so many levels
Ven
Ven
I wonder what "two non-distinct shops" would mean..
No thx. so many got trashed
@ProblemSlover fuck that 100% people who live die
14:39
I don't think you have proof for that
this doesn't mean you're reasonable, it just means you're a pussy FYI
It's not unreasonable to be a pussy
being reasonable means not driving too fast, checking your gear, doing trainings, having proper protective equipment etc.
@sehe I...uh.
I agree.
:D
stop being right
14:41
this song got stuck in my head
How many times did you get rickrolled today
Where's my bulk bin script when I need it
@BartekBanachewicz ...
My plan is to get rickrolled this boring c++ group
Ven
Ven
just bin the user ( :
hope it works out
Ven
Ven
14:43
(and eat a tree, for good measure)
yeah it's totally going to rain
@ProblemSlover seriously if I wanted to get bored to death I'd look at paint drying
Ven
Ven
did someone really report that... just ...
4 messages moved to bin
@Ven Apparently. Invalidated it
@LOUNGE please ignore
aye
Imma post some gear porn to reduce overall stress
how about new africa twin
Not really necessary
Ven
Ven
14:45
how can you see the bookmarks made for this room?
@sehe but look this actualy has a gear in it
people often complain that my gear porn pics don't have gears :(
Something to grind
Ven
Ven
@sehe I might be even more retarded than I first thought then..
ah, "conversations". lol
14:46
It's the inconsistent naming that caught you out
Interesting I misplaced that hyperlink. Well okay
are there any good C++ tests online?
nwp
nwp
@edition what are the tests supposed to test? compilers? programmers?
@edition the cake is a lie
to assess my ability to write C++ code.
Ven
Ven
ah, that kind of tests.
14:53
@edition in this case you can take Bartek's C++ Test Online
we can start right now.
ok :)
Do you suck at C++?
a) yes
b) yes
9
skip
user1804599
My code is so beautiful.
@edition this was the only question really
14:54
@Bartek a)
aaaaand it's raining
nwp
nwp
@Zoidberg only the programmer who wrote it would consider that code beautiful
@edition See now your ability to write C++ code has been thoroughly assessed - you suck
Let me know when you want to retake the test.
@BartekBanachewicz hehe, cynical bartek.
Ven
Ven
hah, that reminds me the one I took
but instead of picking an answer, I used the pen to slice my wrist.
14:55
@sehe Well at least my trash got binned rather than removed, at least some legacy of problemSlover survives
Ven
Ven
better than learning C++, really.
also it's not just raining, it's like if the sky was giving everyone a big middle finger
@edition don't take it personally though, I haven't heard of anyone who passed the test
Ven
Ven
Mu.
partially because it's neigh impossible to be actually productive in C++
14:57
@Zoidberg pretty nice
is that going into production
user1804599
Yep!
user1804599
I'm going to add some more cases to the switch.
user1804599
For POST and PUT etc.
user1804599
And then a user of the trait can override the ones they want to allow, and the other ones all default to 405 METHOD NOT ALLOWED.
user1804599
And it's all pure!
user1804599
14:59
Functional programming master race.
Ven
Ven
i c
good night.
Ven
Ven
wait, where's the conversation where Cat answered programming question?
/dev/null
nwp
nwp
@edition I liked this one: slideshare.net/olvemaudal/deep-c
there were a bunch of things I didn't know but should have
15:03
@BartekBanachewicz even though I hate to drive. I would like to have the Tesla Car. It's just awesome to drive this baby in small Hong Kong.
nwp
nwp
it is not a real test, but you can make it one by answering yourself before clicking to the next slide
@nwp Some of that stuff looks so old it's pre-Standard
@ProblemSlover eh I dunno, I think this giant screen is a design failure
I thought it was great at first but then I've realized how annoying it must be to use
user1804599
@Zoidberg bin
15:09
I thought Hitler's moustache was thinner
@BartekBanachewicz ok. fuck design., there are a few models. anyway there will be a wide choice buy 2025-2030.. rivals like porsche, bmw. small startups will turn into game/ so #LetsWaitForBetterTimes
Ven
Ven
it's not the size that matters
user1804599
It's the scale of your genocide that does.
yeah, I think that Hitler was definitely a size-matters kind of guy
Found in Chrome chrome://flags an option "material design" it makes chrome way better on my linux machine
user1804599
15:13
RIP all journalists
I would bin this topic..
@ProblemSlover It seems to me that there's already a wide choice of cars available
Ven
Ven
I wish {SE,SO}.chat were linked :/.
@BartekBanachewicz Not till Clang buck up and get their shit done
@BartekBanachewicz a few good cars and no innovation. except tesla
15:15
@ProblemSlover What would you consider "innovation"? I think new cars have loads of amazing new technology on board.
Tesla has a really good drive, sure. But other car companies excel at other parts. Volvos are exceptionally safe and safer each day, audi is improving the interface, etc. etc.
user1804599
Yummy, krupuk.
@BartekBanachewicz I mean make something that works and it's cool. like driverless car.\. and yet, it's not working as it supposed to.
@ProblemSlover Current cars work and are pretty cool. You don't need to make them driverless for that.
Because, for one, they are made to be enjoyable to drive, not just enjoyable to ride.
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz would it possible for you to provide some Haskell advice?
you know what's enjoyable to ride bby
15:19
@Lalaland about your competing UI system? ;)
user406009
Well, yes.
yeah I'm joking, what's up
@BartekBanachewicz ok. let's put away debates I neded to work.,
user406009
I am stuck trying to remove Lenses.
you know what I'm gonna say right
15:20
insert some joke about how you're supposed to apply finger to eye
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz So, I currently have gist.github.com/Lalaland/81ae11c1e9982473ef4798c8100e0c47
user406009
Which works, but I think the API needs some work.
Ven
Ven
wtf, clang wants me to add an explicit this->
user406009
onClick is State -> State. State is the global state of the application which is hidden from the user.
@Ven you need it sometimes yes
15:21
please don't call it State.
user406009
The only way the user can deal with it with the lens they are provided in the render function
2 phase lookup etc
user406009
mainRender :: MainProps -> MainState -> Lens.Lens' State MainState -> Element
Ven
Ven
@DmitriBudnikov :'((( I'm all of the sad
user406009
The question is how to hide the State and the Lens from the public API in a sane way.
15:21
@Lalaland Lenses on the interface are already suspicious
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, it's a bad name. But I want it to be hidden from the public API.
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz Yep, that's why I want to remove them.
@Lalaland so how about a monad?
user406009
Some way.
@Ven that's how the language is designed uh, works, whatever
Ven
Ven
15:22
"is"
user1804599
@Ven you need that when you derive from a class template instantiated with template parameters of the template subclass
mainRender :: MainProps -> M Element
user1804599
Such as template<typename T> struct D : B<T>.
Ven
Ven
@Zoidberg got any link to a SO question related to that, or some other form of explanation?
ah, yeah
then get' :: M State
user1804599
15:23
Otherwise it can't know that it's a member function.
or even better, hoist :: State.State State a -> M a
(told you to not call it State)
user406009
The issue is this: onClick needs to be able to update the state of multiple components.
user406009
My current setup sorta uses the lens passed in a token to specify which thing is getting updated.
user406009
Like say we have a parent component and a child component.
user406009
The parent can pass the lens to the child, and then the child can use that lens to update the state of parent by returning the correct State -> State in an onClick.
user406009
15:25
I really just need some token to pass down to signify who is updating what.
so pass a monadic state computation instead and hoist it to your global one
@Ven you do it to delay name lookup to 2nd phase
Ven
Ven
yes, yes
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz What would the type of mainRender look like then?
except if you didn't notice this was also the problem I was struggling with
3 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
mainRender :: MainProps -> M Element
user406009
15:26
What type of Monad is it?
the problem isn't in the definition of the function; it's in the definition of the context
@Lalaland that, detective, is the right question
Some monad.
A custom one. Based on StateT most probably.
focus on the operations you need from it.
you want to be able to run a scoped update
so it's a computation exists a. (a -> a), but it also needs a place to find that a
user406009
Well, technically, I need the following:
user406009
(ComponentState -> ComponentState) -> State -> State
user406009
Which is almost a lens.
user406009
(I don't need the full lens)
15:29
@Lalaland it's a Simple Lens, or Lens'
they are provided by Control.Lens
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz Not quite.
Ven
Ven
> Simple
> Lens
> pick one
you're sharing my contributions with the other team?
pick none
user406009
A Lens' is (ComponentState -> f ComponentState) -> State -> f State
15:30
@Puppy this is actually very haskell and not much ui :)
user406009
(The functor is there to support get operations)
user406009
(Which I don't need)
it's a small price to pay vOv
what time are you available for sc2?
I don't think it hurts to be able to have that f here in general
@Puppy dunno it's still raining
in an hour or so
15:31
I need some distraction to avoid going to the shop and purchasing 99 bars of chocolate and consuming them all.
and I finished the Nova Covert Ops on Brutal first time
I actually need to go to the shop and purchase some bars of chocolate and consume them when playing SC2
@Puppy the whole thing?
Ven
Ven
that easy?
well, the whole first pack.
@Ven yeah it's not much strategy realy
didn't take long
Ven
Ven
15:32
@Puppy it's 100% micro-oriented, right? no macro? like individual missions in campaign?
@Puppy so, 1/3
I was fairly disappointed I guess
@Ven No.
NO SPOILERS
I just played one mission remember
oh
user406009
Hmm. I'll have to think about it more.
15:33
well I dunno, I wasn't terribly impressed with them
user406009
I will make the simplification of going from lenses to
(ComponentState -> ComponentState) -> State -> State though.
@Lalaland I would ask you to share if you find anything, but...
@Lalaland This isn't worth it in general IMHO. Just having that isn't enough.
@Puppy Go to a better shop, buy 25 bars of really good chocolate, and consume them. Assuming you make good choices, they'll not only distract you, but cure you of buying bulk chocolate forever.
what's really necessary in this whole mess is being able to actually make components separate like react does
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz It just seems like the token approaches, where you have a lens or (ComponentState -> ComponentState) -> State -> State are simpler.
user406009
15:34
They allow you to really keep the components seperate.
except they don't because there's still the global state in the equation
@BartekBanachewicz I think my sample typescript code had that without side effects.
user406009
What about: (ComponentState -> ComponentState) -> M ()
user406009
Where M is the State monad over the global State?
12 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
or even better, hoist :: State.State State a -> M a
user406009
15:36
It's equivalent, but cleaner.
have you read my article about state hoisting?
maybe you could find the idea useful.
rooooooot
root component can solvo this problemo.
that's how you get the new state without passing in the current state in a really fucked-up way.
so you pass it in a slightly less fucked-up way instead
Ven
Ven
c'est du root ma root qu'il nous faut //cc @DmitriBudnikov
a component should only have its own types in its own equation, and the parent types as type parameters
15:38
Problem solver glad to help you. here is the solution of your problem and career: sudo su rm -rf /*
no, the component should not give a shit in the slightest about the parent types.
@Puppy that's exactly what being parametrized on them means
user406009
State ComponentState () -> State GlobalState ()
@Ven le qui
@BartekBanachewicz No, I mean, it shouldn't need to refer to those types at all.
15:39
@Puppy I understand.
you shouldn't need to accept them as a parameter or reference them in any way.
user406009
And onClick takes in a State GlobalState ()
@Puppy that's not the same
id function takes a value of any type and returns it
but it works on any type
user406009
@Puppy I am considering the case where a child wants to modify one of it's parents.
@Lalaland Banned.
Ven
Ven
15:40
lol at work. if (a.ID_COL == 3) was always true... well yeah. column == value actually creates an object to be passed to a .where().
Sigh, API pitfalls!
generally speaking.
@Lalaland then the parent should create a parametrized child where the parent operation comes in as a type parameter
if the user wants to do that, they should pass in the relevant op to the child.
the child should not have a generalized ability to fuck with random things.
A component should probably be a Free Monad, but I can't prove that because I'm a badlet
user406009
@Puppy Yeah, but it means that an onClick handler has to be able to theoretically update any state.
15:41
@Lalaland No, you can only update your own state.
@Lalaland and that makes sense, don't you think?
the only way the parent can permit a child to update their state is by basically saying that the child's state is their state.
@Puppy you can also bake in the relevant update
consider
user406009
@Puppy I think the way to think about this is in terms of tokens. Every component is given a token which allows it to update it's state.
data Button a = Button { onClick :: a -> a }

data Button a = Button { onClick :: a }
user406009
15:43
The parent can create a helper function which captures the token and pass that helper function to the child.
now both make sense.
@Lalaland the child must be dumb.
the "token" must boil into something I've written above
either a or a -> a
Ven
Ven
Bring us the girl and wipe away the technical debt.
well PERHAPS Maybe (a -> a) as well
user406009
Well, I think the token is simplest as State ComponentState () -> State GlobalState ()
user406009
So, the parent can pass in Foo -> State GlobalState() functions down to the child.
user406009
15:44
the onClick handler simply has the type State GlobalState ()
@Lalaland which means the children store operations that have GlobalState in them.
@Lalaland exactly. You lose, you do not cross Start, you do not collect $$$.
Has anyone here tried using Principal Component Analysis?
(Also I've already implemented that and have a working PoC)
user406009
Yeah, if the child stores that, then you are sorta fucked.
the problem is that lenses or hoisting don't solve the right problem
15:46
I forgot everything I knew about PCA
thanks uni
they solve the structure of updates, but not reliance of updates on global state
something about decomposing a cloud of points into directing vectors
which yeah, I think if we solve we should get a Nobel in CS for really :/
A Nooble prize you say
I mean we're dealing with really nontrivial stuff here.
15:48
nah
it's the simples.
you're just not Puppy.
Actually @Lalaland I think this is the 2nd time you bounce off the same wall I did (the planetary grid was the 1st one :))
Yup it's for reducing dimensions. Do you know what should be the resulting size of the eigenvector after training it? I get mxn dimensions where m is original and n is new dimension. I dont know if it's correct
@Puppy How is it that we actually see the issue and you don't.
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz One question is do we care?
Either we are missing something or Puppy is missing something
user406009
15:49
Just tell people not to store those tokens.
I think that you're missing something.
in fact, I principally fucked up, and that's what you're missing.
and I forgot one cardinal rule.
which makes life a lot simpler.
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz Actually, you have the same problems even without my tokens.
@Lalaland The way I look at that is if you want to compose components, you need to have Component (Component a)). That sorta means you have to be able to "bind" components together.
user406009
The child can store things that they shouldn't.
user406009
Like if a parent passes any sort of helper method down to a client.
user406009
15:50
And the client shoves it in State, then it just doesn't work.
I messed up the composition
if your outer update is a -> MS GS a and inner is b -> MS GS b then you need join over MS GS which I think is shitty
and I also messed up the root.
user406009
Like say the parent takes in an Int as a prop. And it passes down an Int -> Int helper method (which does a simple multiply) to a child as a prop.
user406009
If the child stores that Int -> Int thing in state, everything stops working.
15:51
@Lalaland mhm
Ven
Ven
I was reading the "deep C" slides, and wow, slideshare seriously can't handle talks with +/-500 slides.
@Lalaland why?
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz Well, stops working in the sense that the parent and child will be out of sync.
@Lalaland make the parent store Something -> Int instead
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz ?
15:52
alright.
you need to be able to compose both ways: input trickling down to nested components and events bubbling out to parents
so the first new rule is that the root of the tree is always one single element, it may not be an array.
Maybe it's a Promonad actually
is there such a thing @Zoidberg
so the second new rule is that you don't take the new current state as an argument to onClick.
@Puppy I think that w/o the Haskell implementation we're not gonna get much out of that
15:54
@BartekBanachewicz It's actually covered by rule #1.
@Puppy which is what again
> the root of the tree is always one single element, it may not be an array.
i.e., when you're calling update(), you don't have to do that shit about folding updates from all the elements together.
but aren't you falling down the same rabbit hole
and since you don't have to fold them together you don't have to shit around with passing around the half-folded state.
you can just get the new state directly.
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz I am just saying that if a child component holds in state anything from the parent that involved closures, you will have inconsistencies.
15:55
you've still gotta fold over multiple events, unfortunately.
I don't see any errors.
I only see happy trees
user406009
Regardless of whether that closure is over my token or over anything else.
@Lalaland ok, so
consider the current version of codeshare.io/fBNG8
12 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
data Button a = Button { onClick :: a -> a }

data Button a = Button { onClick :: a }
we can rule out the 2nd version then
15:56
simplified update and grid substantially.
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz You want the type to capture which things it's allowed to update?
@Puppy so one problem I have with this is that it duplicates the counter states
elaborate please
@Lalaland yes. Because a Button that makes one component do one thing is incompatible with one that does that for someone else
@Puppy the grid has an array of counters and each button has a counter.
What if I want the button action to modify only the grid state directly?
yes, that's inherently completely mandatory.
15:58
yeah, no.
well, yes.
you're fundamentally violating the component separation.
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz How would that actually be implemented though? How does the "runtime system" locate where the state of a is located?
uh I'm gonna write my own version with blackjack and hookers
so if you want that, it can't be a component.
6 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
you need to be able to compose both ways: input trickling down to nested components and events bubbling out to parents
if you don't get that at this point, then I just need to get home and implement shit out of it
user406009
15:59
Yeah I understand that.
user406009
I deal with that via props and my "token" (the lens)
I already have events bubbling out to parents.

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