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Ven
12:04 AM
hi, lounge
 
@nick what do you mean
@nick Yes, I know which school I am going to.
I'm already going to it lol
 
"The target of the callback could not be found"
 
12:25 AM
I wonder why STL's posts have different font styles.
 
So, anybody doing anything fun?
 
Ven
playing world of warcraft. do I look like I'm having fun? no
 
I'm writing software at a bar blindpigco.com/big-pig.html
 
Aha. C++ project idea: -Wall cleaner.
Some sort of fixer for those warnings.
 
12:56 AM
@Mikhail lol
Right now, I'm at work
trying to write code for Shiny/R
 
does the standard require anything about an object after it's been moved from?
like, Obj a, b; a = std::move(b);
 
@zounds I believe so.
 
is there any expectation that you should never touch b again?
 
@zounds Nope. It's up to you if it's either in an undefined state or a "empty" state that's relevant to your class.
@zounds Nope.
 
Ven
Isn't it supposed to be in an empty state?
 
1:02 AM
@MarkGarcia But by default it's undefined
you can specify new behavior but the default is undefined, right?
 
i mean b's destructor will still be called, right? so at least its destructor has to check for this empty state
 
@zounds No.
I don't think so.
 
hmmm
 
The resources of b are literally moved from b into a
"literally" used figuratively
 
@VermillionAzure The standard doesn't make that assumption "by default", and that doesn't make sense (what is not-"by default"? how do you indicate it?)
@zounds The destructor would be called. It's up to you how your destructor would manage your moved-from state.
 
1:04 AM
@MarkGarcia hmmm.
 
@VermillionAzure wtf stop
 
let me see
 
anyways, my question is if i have a class
class someclass{
nullable resource;
public:
void do_something();
~someclass();
};
the destructor will have to check that the resource is nonnull in case it's been moved,
 
@zounds In most cases, yes.
 
is it poor style if none of the other functions check for null?
 
1:06 AM
@zounds Depends. It's totally okay if you design your class to be in an undefined/unusable state if it's moved-from.
Let UB do its job. ;)
 
ok cool. thanks
 
I should read it
All of it
 
Umm, if the class shouldn't be moved, shouldn't you remove the copy constructor?
 
@zounds deleting/freeing it doesn't require null check though
 
1:17 AM
@Mikhail move constructor
 
Okay, fine remove both.
 
@Mikhail it's not that the class shouldn't be moved, it's that i'm not sure what the convention is for dealing with classes that can be moved-from.
 
@Mikhail copy constructors must be deleted, but only after being moved
 
@StackedCrooked wat
 
I would pass the resources like a pointer, similar to what Qt uses. Moving stuff is too hard.
 
1:21 AM
@Mikhail Don't you usually want to use references over pointers?
 
you'd need a pointer here because you'd need it to be reseatable/nullable
 
@VermillionAzure Shoot yourself in the foot? There are perfectly good C++ libraries that use pointers for resources that need to be shared by many classes, like Qt.
 
@Mikhail Yes
I know
 
I seeded a torrent for 12 ratio and still going
this is the highest I ever went
 
I frequently find myself writing simple caches for IO in the style of a dictionary, why the heck doesn't the OS provided this functionality?
 
1:29 AM
There's probably a lot of caching going on through all the layers of the system.
 
@AlexM. casual
 
probably
 
@Rapptz nobody removes torrents as fast as me once downloaded
 
you're one of those faggots
smh
 
get rekt leecher
 
1:32 AM
Does anyone have experience with TCP vs UDP?
 
you don't even know your terminology.
shame on you
 
I don't understand why UDP would be a better choice for games.
 
@Jefffrey because no overhead
 
@Jefffrey I don't get it sometimes too
 
no checking automated packing or something something something
 
1:33 AM
@Jefffrey if it helps, last I heard WoW was TCP
UDP is widely used in FPS-like games
most likely to lower ping
 
Ok, so what I got is this: UDP = fast, say ~95% reliable, packets not ordered. TCP = needs ack packets, but also buffers a lot, handles congestion control really well, relatively slow.
Given this, say you have something like factorio.
 
@Jefffrey Seriously though, I think the principle is to send as much as you can; eventually a fraction of those packets would reach and make sense.
 
TCP packet walks into a bar & says “I’d like a beer.” Barman replies “You’d like a beer?” “Yes,” replies TCP packet,“I’d like a beer.”
 
that
 
@Mikhail UDP packet walks into a bar & says "I'd like a beer." Barman give UDP packet a beer.
 
1:35 AM
I see two approaches to a simple server-client connection: 1) you only send when a player moves and 2) you keep sending the player position.
 
It's not about speed
Keep sending when
 
I'd assume replies are still needed in UDP
 
Now with 1) TCP is good. But for 2) you would think that UDP is good, but at that point you are sending like 600% more packets and you are congesting the network, which is what TCP seems to be good at.
 
@Mikhail The ack can sent along with the the beer.
 
1:36 AM
latency is an issue in FPS games, I spot it every time when I play on DE servers (20 to 40 lag) and then move to my usual DM servers (sweden) where I get 70+ lag
 
There's no point resending the same data in either
Anyway forget about games
 
@CatPlusPlus But how do you know the data got there?
 
You don't want UDP unless you know you want it
 
With approach 1) there's a point in resending the same data if it didn't arrive the first time.
 
Because you'll be reimplementing large parts of TCP on UDP anyway
 
1:37 AM
Because you have to keep the two (server and client) synchronized.
 
@Jefffrey Maybe we should just implement this already
 
Yes, and you get that by implementing reliable delivery, not flooding the client with duplicate packets
 
And do a trial
 
might be interesting
I don't remember anything about it tho
 
@CatPlusPlus What if you don't need 100% reliability?
Wasn't there an article on this?
 
1:39 AM
@VermillionAzure One way communication is for porn
 
You don't get 100% reliability ever
 
@CatPlusPlus So I'm not sure what you are suggesting. TCP or UDP with home made reliable delivery?
 
Network is never reliable
@Jefffrey Yes
As I said, if you pick UDP, you'll be reimplementing large parts of TCP anyway
 
@Jefffrey What type of application are you creating?
 
@AlexM. Wait, you're contradicting the statement above.
 
1:40 AM
It's not a choice based on speed, it's a choice based on implementation flexibility
 
@MarkGarcia which one
 
If you know you can relax TCP requirements for your application, you can go with UDP
 
> I remember reading this
 
@MarkGarcia I remember reading it
not what is inside it
 
Packets arrive at the same speed regardless of whether they're tagged as TCP or UDP
 
1:40 AM
save for WoW uses TCP
which is what I also said above
 
> anything
:P
 
I read a lot of things that I quickly forget because I don't use them
networking is one of them
(and I'm glad because it looks hard af)
(and not as exciting as other hard things)
5
 
@AlexM. could you remove that "af"
 
@MarkGarcia :< fine, I contradicted my claim
I remember the networking course a year ago lol
I started with "jesus this is so hard and boring"
and ended with "pls no"
 
TCP is fine until loss occurs and you get the sawtooth.
34 minutes.
 
1:44 AM
Hello
 
hello
 
I should sleep.
 
greetings and salutations
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes lies
(hello)
 
1:48 AM
I had... I lost count of how many coffees today.
Eight or something.
 
Stay up, and restart your coffee count at midnight!
 
Might have been too much.
 
I never realized that switches only take integrals
 
Liar, they take ethernet cables.
 
1:49 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes if it helps, I've seen news today about some study claiming that 5+ coffees is really good for you
daily
 
@AlexM. Of course, mine are always decaf and doubly-chocolat-y chip-y.
 
Hmm. Plus three Club-Mate, each of which has as much caffeine as one coffee.
Definitely too much.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes OOC, what's your present resting heart rate?
 
have you tried alcohol?
 
1:51 AM
okay.
 
I had some gin but in tasting amounts.
 
use alcohol on yourself, it makes me sleepy sometimes
 
Tasted a prototype.
@jagged my heart rate is 70bpm
I don't want alcohol. I don't drink alone.
 
where the fuck is that video of the guy talking about tech things that made people sleep
I bet it would make robot sleep
 
1:54 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes that cant be good for you
 
I can't find it and of course I can't search starred messages
why would stackoverflow provide this functionality
 
@AlexM. to make robot sleep just unlatch the battery =/
what more complicated gadget would you need
 
I really want to hear the guy again lol
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes whaaat. Nice cardiovascular system, to have 70bpm after so much caffeine.
 
@AlexM. I sometimes sleep at cppcon videos.
 
1:55 AM
I can't remember the topic even
youtube doesn't let you search within your history either
is it broken software day today or sth
 
If I go to sleep now I'll miss the whole Saturday.
 
no
it was some indian dude
speaking over some slides
 
oh no the indian dude
I didn't last long on that video.
 
let me try and google for how I remember the comments
when all else fails, google page content that you remember
also works for lyrics
 
2:00 AM
But if I don't go to sleep now I'll be awake and have a terrible Saturday.
So much I wanna do tomorrow :S
 
You gonna drive anywhere?
 
I don't drive.
 
Well then, you apparently have a huge tolerance for caffeine.
And a desire to be awake tomorrow.
 
I was planning to cycle in the afternoon and to wash dishes (volunteer work) for four hours in the evening.
 
Why not take a few naps, 1-2 hours each?
 
2:04 AM
I've been awake for 42 hours now. I hate myself.
 
Go to sleep
 
Holy hammer on a pineapple.
 
May 11 at 16:55, by Andy Prowl
best tech video for falling asleep: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9fsWoDAi0U&index=3&list=PLtfSfhU7Q3NkyZxdTk4Z9R‌​XYLUb0QANDO
there we go
 
@Puppy hi
 
2:05 AM
I was going to suggest pushing it, but yeah you need sleep.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Go to sleep.
 
Sleep is for wussies.
 
Do you know what happens to people that don't sleep?
 
@StackedCrooked He's already conclusively proven he's not a wuss.
 
@VermillionAzure They die too.
 
2:05 AM
I believe the Russians conducted an experiment on people and kept them awake in a room for a week
Not sure.
 
@VermillionAzure not the russian sleep experiment creepypasta?
 
@jaggedSpire hmmmm
;)
 
I think I took a nap for about one hour at work.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Was it tasty and delicious?
 
kinda papery
 
2:09 AM
I am afraid I'll sleep till tomorrow at this time.
I don't want to miss the job I volunteered for.
 
Well the more you'll delay the later you'll sleep. Or if you set an alarm the less sleep you'll get.
 
Oh, I know.
The hostel has an alarm service that includes someone going up to my room with a bucket of water. I'll ask that.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Notify them?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Shoulda thought of that 24 hours ago
 
2:12 AM
I don't plan things.
I think I'll sleep.
 
here's an excellent track to have this late
I think it's the nicest version I've seen so far
> Additional music includes a rendition of Franz Schubert's "Ave Maria" sung by Daniel Perret (Boy Soloist of the Zurich Boys' Choir)
 
2:35 AM
Cool.
Abba has this song named "I am the city". I like it :)
 
One Finger Death Punch is a fun game
 
3:20 AM
> Why does compiling the driver for Dead Souls throw so many warnings? (Back to Top)
> Beats me. This is one of those complaints I don't really know how to respond to. At the end of the compile, you'll have a driver that works. It's been tested on GCC 2, 3, and 4. It's worked for Fedora Linux, SuSE Linux, and various other versions of UNIX and UNIX-clone environments. It works. Ignore the compile schmutz.
lol
 
> GCC 2
yeah I'm rolling on the floor
 
Gotta love ancient MUD codebases
> CPU time in boot: 0.07 seconds. (Performance score: Spectacular.)
 
3:40 AM
@milleniumbug It's fine if the code is very old.
 
All copyrights are 199x
It's amazing that people manage to still work on this
 
I'm sure the COBOL programmers are not impressed.
 
That's mostly because they're all braindead by now
 
good morning neural networks
 
Good morning.
 
3:45 AM
@AlexM. lol
 
3:56 AM
Still no expression sfinae though :w
 
and by "insane", you mean workaholic?
 
No, "working on a C++ compiler"
 
Can't blame him for lack of expression SFINAE, he does libraries not language support.
 
and basically provides every library feature as soon as the compiler language support is in
 
4:00 AM
Sometimes even before
 
I don't get "Extended integer types" are listed as Not Applicable because the Standard permits but doesn't require support for types longer than long long. We've chosen not to support such types, which is conformant behavior.
What is __int128?
 
Implementation-defined no?
 
Implementation-defined what? I thought it was an extended integer type.
Because it's definitely an integer type, and it's not an aggregate, and it's not a standard integral type, so therefore...
 
And what is sizeof(intmax_t)
 
How's that relevant? I see no rule relating intmax_t to extended integer types, except for the clause providing abs overloads if intmax_t is distinct from the standard integral types.
What is the latest draft these days anyway?
 
4:12 AM
I don't know ISTR that intmax_t is the widest supported integer type. So if it doesn't include int128, then int128 does not qualify as an extended integer type. Or something.
 
Seems like such a rule would make sense, however it isn't in the C++ standard (checked drafts n4296 and n4431)
 
Maybe I'm confusing with C :w
You'd have better luck with one of our language lawyers I guess
 
Beh I don't feel tired much
That's the worst thing
Guess I'm pulling a Robot today
 
@BenVoigt Yeah I found the wording for C but not C++
> These types are optional. However, if an implementation provides integer types with widths of 8, 16, 32, or 64 bits, no padding bits, and (for the signed types) that have a two’s complement representation, it shall define the corresponding typedef names.
 
It's here in C:
> 7.20.1.5 Greatest-width integer types
1 The following type designates a signed integer type capable of representing any value of
any signed integer type:
`intmax_t`
The following type designates an unsigned integer type capable of representing any value
of any unsigned integer type:
`uintmax_t`
These types are required.
 
4:19 AM
yeah
no idea for C++
@CatPlusPlus push ups
 
Never
 
and ok, these footnotes apply that to extended integer types:
> 39) Therefore, any statement in this Standard about signed integer types also applies to the extended
signed integer types.
40) Therefore, any statement in this Standard about unsigned integer types also applies to the extended
unsigned integer types.
 
Well, maybe someday, when I'll have the time to work on finally not being fat
Not today
 
and C++ incorporates the <stdint.h> requirements by reference
 
Oh, that's why
@CatPlusPlus It doesn't take that much
 
4:22 AM
So that sounds like intmax_t ought to be __int128 or larger
 
If int128 were an extended integer type, yeah.
 
It can't be anything else. The Standard puts certain requirements on implementation-specific integer types.
 
What I meant is that currently, __int128 is not an extended integer type only because it lacks the typedef from intmax_t
 
Or, it is a non-compliant extended integral type.
It would be interesting to see what all the type trait metafunctions return for __int128 and unsigned __int128
They aren't compound types, so they have to be fundamental types.
Oh wait, __int128 isn't actually implemented as a type yet in MSVC, just a reserved word.
That would explain it.
 
Even on GCC, intmax_t is still only 64 bits despite there being __int128.
 
4:34 AM
GCC doesn't support extended integer types either
 
5
Q: Why in g++ std::intmax_t is not a __int128_t?

VincentMy question is pretty simple: as std::intmax_t is defined as the maximum width integer type according to cppreference, why it does not correspond to __int128_t in GCC?

 
Ugh I'm bad at naming things
 
> Very Fast Smart Shorter Long Handed Close Inserter
DyTech mod for Factorio is getting out of hand
 
Yeah it adds a shitton of those
The rest of DyTech is meh though
And really it could just do with the near variants
 
Yup
It changes too much IMHO
The balance is disrupted
Even though I still like it
It's fun
 
4:59 AM
@Mysticial IIRC it was because the __int128_t type was not supported fully in the sense that you could not do everything with it that you could do with another integer type.
 
5:48 AM
I wonder what would make x86 processors faster? For example, if we remove all the legacy stuff like 8087 does it make the CPU faster, give more silicon for a faster CPU?
 
@Mikhail I think this question is way too complex to answer. However, I do not think that current x86/AMD64 CPUs could benefit much from removing x87 part of the instruction set. They are already very optimized, I think.
 
Yeah, thats why I didn't post it on SO ;-)
I would assume duplicated instructions like the different SSEs go through the same hardware, maybe legacy stuff like x87 is similarly handled?
 
6:38 AM
The slow part isn't the execution units. It's the instruction decoding and the out-of-order execution.
 
And those are only slow in case of branch misprediction -- in the normal case the only cost is power
 
Granted, a lot terribly written floating-point code will be latency bound.
I'm not sure floating-point ops can be made much faster than they are now given their complexity in hardware. Though I am amazed that Intel managed to get the multiply latency down to 3 cycles for Broadwell.
Though the FMA is still 5 cycles.
 
So is decoding cache/memory bound?
 
They must have a LOT of unused silicon real estate to throw around.
 
I want more cores and less x87!
 
6:43 AM
@Mikhail Decoding is inherently serial due to variable length instructions.
That's what the uop cache tries to solve.
Decode it once and run it many times.
 
^^^
Lots of problems "solved" by throwing more silicon space at them
 
Except now you only have 6 cores in your chip and nvidia gives you like 1k
 
@BenVoigt I can tell that Intel has a lot of real estate just by looking at the AVX512 instruction set. Especially the VBMI extension that's coming in Cannonlake.
 
Mikhail, those numbers really aren't comparable. If you multiplied by the number of integer units, and the inherent parallelism in each one, you might be equivalent to a shader "core". Or equivalently, compare full x86 cores to nVidie shader control units.
 
@Mysticial Visual Basic Micro Instructions? (seriously what does that do?)
 
6:47 AM
GPUs are also quite a bit larger and use more power
 
@MarkGarcia AVX512-VBMI = Vector Byte Manipulation Instructions.
 
I guess they currently can't add more cores without significantly going beyond the current power envelopes.
Or ending up with many but small cores.
@Mikhail Xeon Phi!
 
They have a 2 vector all-to-all permute at byte-granularity. That's 64 x 128 mux. We're talking O(N^2 log(N)) area to implement that instruction.
That's insane. A high performance multiplier is sub-quadratic area.
 
Okay, why didn't they use that silicon to give me another core?
 
@Mikhail Power consumption.
The trend is basically what they call "dark silicon".
Most of the chip is inactive. If you actually turned on every part of the chip at the same time, you'll fry it.
Having so much area without the ability to use all of it at the same time is basically a recipe for specialization.
Hence AES, SHA, and all those application targeted stuff.
 
6:53 AM
That sounds lame, make a form factor thats twice as big :-)
 
But global warming!
 
Twice as big = more than twice as expensive
 
@BenVoigt But he just told me there is tons of dead silicon!
 
not dead, dark
 
@MarkGarcia Global warming is due to a client side web rendering
 
6:54 AM
More cores == more defects too.
 
defects are why twice the size is more than twice the price
well, that and imperfect packing
 
@BenVoigt Or they can just turn off the dead cores. :)
 
I guess Intel does more node optimization now than chip architecture.
 
@Mark: They do both. tick-tock
 

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