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7:02 AM
@ParkYoung-Bae 2015 preview?
 
7:14 AM
2013
 
@Cinch Are you sure ?! lol
 
@sehe Uhm... abracadabsolutely?
 
:D
@StackedCrooked freakbeast!
@ParkYoung-Bae Is that the "4" update? I think some people were on SO complaining about it too
 
Wait a minute...................
Conservative force fields means that the weight of work going in any direction is the same.
Is that correct?
 
Work of weight.
It’s more precise than 'the same'.
 
7:23 AM
@LucDanton What i mean is that work going in any direction is the same as if i went in any other direction
 
Ah, the more usual terminology is 'path', not 'direction'.
 
@sehe Yes (update 5 I think)
 
@LucDanton Yes, but the reason why any path doesn't matter is because the "weight" of direction in relation to the force is the same, right?
Direction bias = non-conservative
OMG
 
The weight at the North pole is inverse to the weight at the South pole, for a given mass.
I suggest you carefully consider your terminology.
 
@LucDanton Well the basic idea helps be understand
the nitty-picky stuff can come later
 
7:28 AM
If you 'understand' for the wrong reasons, you are not understanding.
The direction of weight is not the same everywhere, depending on model. But weight is conservative in all those models.
 
@ParkYoung-Bae Oh. The complaints I saw were with something-something "4". Anyhoops it didn't ICE. I strongly suspected constexpr from the messages (but the question was very incomplete)
 
@LucDanton The direction of weight is towards the center of mass, which can act as the origin
 
@Cinch In other words it is not that a nitpicked, is that I showed a counter-example to your reasoning. You are wrong.
 
> You are wrong.
@LucDanton The opposite. Not the inverse. TERMINOLOGY
 
indeed
 
7:30 AM
lol
 
I prefer multiplicative groups :)
 
@LucDanton assuming a perfect sphere, I presume
 
@ParkYoung-Bae So you overloaded the global and friended it
 
@sehe I leave that to the choice of cows models ;) As far as direction is concerned however…
 
@sehe But of course the Earth is a fat potato whose center of mass is its astrological couch.
 
7:32 AM
@LucDanton Ok!
 
@sehe WHERE'S THE ASSIGNMENT OPERATOR? (It's the default one, isn't it)
And assignment is usually just copy everything right?
 
@Cinch Which coordinates are you using?
 
@Cinch Hmm misreply?
 
mawning
 
But
 
7:33 AM
@Cinch .. sort of (I'm not motivated to make it more precise. You can look it up)
 
I wonder when we'll start viewing memory access as O(n^(1/3))
 
Copy != assignment when you have pointers and dynamically allocated resources
 
@orlp Where n is the number of cores?
 
Which is why copy exists.
 
@sehe No, n is the memory offset
 
7:33 AM
@LucDanton Uh idk it's conservative forces and integrals so it's... yeah
 
or address
 
@Cinch I'm so glad you told me
 
@sehe Now the only question is why Move exists.
 
@orlp Then... no
 
@Cinch Those things assume Newtonian/Galilean settings! You can’t just pick anything!
 
7:34 AM
@Cinch What's the context?
 
@sehe Why not?
 
Move exists for taking resources away that are going to be thrown away so you just move it into your new memory slot and vila?
 
@orlp Why so?
 
Favourite lesson from Prof. Donald Simanek: geometry matters. A lot!
 
@sehe We live in a 3 dimensional world, the latency of a memory retrieval can be no faster than the speed of light, and 3 dimensional packing distance is O(n^(1/3))
 
7:35 AM
because Move is reserved for rvalues which are temporary by nature so it's inherently safe to take memory away from it because it's meant to be temporary but Move makes it possible to assign it in combination with rvalue references into lvalue "containers"
 
@Cinch To whom where you shouting this, about what, and what for? (Context)
 
@sehe Your coliru example.
 
@Cinch Move is not only for temporary values
 
@orlp Nerd :) I wasn't thinking about these levels. But yeah. Perhaps in 2080
 
@orlp But isn't rvalue temporary or ephemeral by nature?
 
7:36 AM
Moving out of temporary values is always allowed.
 
@Cinch This is thought. So, what would you like to ask about that?
 
But there are many use cases for moving out of things that are not temporary.
 
@sehe Well I see that you used the default assignment operator
 
@Cinch A cow is bovine. Not all bovinae are cows
 
@orlp Like swapping.
And transforming
 
7:36 AM
@Cinch Of course. Less code is more information. Less code is less bugs
 
@Cinch for example std::unique_ptr
you can't copy it
 
@sehe Which would be bad for pointers because they would point to the same thing.
 
Hi.
 
but you can move it
@Rapptz mowning
 
@Cinch Depends. Do you find 0 temporary? (Does that mean it stops from being zero at some point?)
 
7:37 AM
@Cinch It would be bad for pointers. (Depending on who own the resources)
 
@Rapptz I'm using Sol for my tutorials btw.
 
Cool.
 
So unique_ptrs are basically an answer to "How do i make sure i have only one reference to the object at all times?"
 
@orlp and specifically, not only from "ephemeral" temporaries
 
well
this is another case of Cinch not (possibly) knowing the proper terms
 
7:38 AM
@Cinch No. How do give only smart pointer instance ownership at a time
 
C++ is never rarely about total control or constraint. It's about having the choice.
 
@sehe xvalue
 
@orlp given X lvalue; is std::move(lvalue) an xvalue (I honestly don't know)
 
I really don't get smart pointers yet.
 
7:40 AM
@sehe it is
 
Aren't they for automatic memory management (ish)?
Like to make reverse-RAII easier and not have to call delete manually and have memory leaks?
 
@Cinch I think you do. But you don't have a good model of why/when to apply them, maybe
 
@sehe Say I have a catalog of monsters in a game where there are bunches of instances
I want to pass events to them but never twice
 
Nothing to do with smart pointers
 
I store unique_ptrs to every instance and then run them through the foreach with a lambda or functor or something
To implement the "update tick" ish functionality
Correct? Wrong?
Good bad?
 
7:41 AM
@sehe "A cast expression to an rvalue reference to object type, such as static_cast<T&&>(val) or (T&&)val"
 
@sehe It should be, right? std::move always returns an rvalue
 
@orlp yes would have been fine :)
 
@Cinch That’s wrong. Specifically, the choice of words in 'returns an rvalue'.
 
@sehe ?
 
@Cinch ...
 
7:42 AM
oh and when you look at std::move on cppreference
"std::move obtains an rvalue reference to its argument and converts it to an xvalue."
 
ah, that's what i missed
so it converts to xvalue
 
@Cinch That's something you'd do with a unique container for the events. unique in unique_ptr has nothing to do with uniqueness of the pointee in any set
 
so I think all Xspiring values are xvalues oh okay
@sehe then why is it called unique and is it just so no copies are made of it?
 
It's about unique ownership.
 
@sehe So... no reference counting then because there is always one reference?
 
7:44 AM
Indeed. With the proper conveniences to make it hard to violate the ownership invariant. But not impossible
6 mins ago, by sehe
@Cinch No. How do give only smart pointer instance ownership at a time
 
@sehe I don't get your sentence
"How do give only smart pointer"
 
s/do/to/ not too hard (look at what it was a reply to...). Sorry nonetheless
 
@sehe "How to give only smart pointer instance ownership at a time"
 
Oops. I need more coffee
> @Cinch No. How to give only one smart pointer instance ownership at a time
 
Compounds! shakes fist
 
7:46 AM
@sehe Ohhhhhhhhh...
So it only works inside of the smart pointer std:: system
If I were to use a raw pointer that goes out the door.
 
@Cinch You might have asked me 6 minutes ago though, instead of rambling about monsters and events
@Cinch indeed
 
So don't mix raw and smart
 
Oh. You can mix them no problem.
 
They should call them dumb pointers.
 
As long as you do not mix owership invariants
 
7:48 AM
@Cinch It’s been suggested, in fact.
 
@LucDanton proposed even, AFAIK, for c++17
 
@sehe invarients what
@sehe What does this mean
invarients
 
You can not give one smart pointer ownership, and then have another piece of code mistakenly assume ownership of the corresponding raw pointer.
 
@sehe For C++14 (got rejected afaik)
 
@sehe I think the value in the paper was to communicate with the community. As an actual implemented change I don’t think it ever had, or has, much chance to succeed :)
 
7:49 AM
Yeah.
 
@sehe So don't mutilate the container and you'll be fine?
Encapsulation = protection?
 
@Cinch But many times, using raw pointers would be just fine; We don't generally recommend it because it might be less explicit of intent. But IME unique_ptrs are just not always convenient, so when it's amply clear they're not required, I use raw pointers.
 
And I’m quite glad that notions like 'vocabulary types' have been spreading out. We are going to reap API benefits one way or the other.
 
@Cinch Hmmm. No, "C++ is pay for what you use" and "Think for yourself" :)
 
Smart pointer are very convenient to store, but they don’t necessarily need to come out of their hiding places.
 
7:51 AM
@Cinch If you're gonna repeat new words, at least spell them correctly
 
@sehe inhumanvarients
Inhumans
MARVEL
 
@LucDanton Hmm?
 
@sehe Which part?
 
Vocabulary types? Did I miss a new thing?
 
@sehe Speaking about that (or not I'm tired)
I wrote down a nice flow chart to help guide my path now:
 
7:54 AM
inb4 shit
 
@Cinch I shall have another coffee, while you have fewer beers?
@ParkYoung-Bae Good morning. How was your day?
 
@sehe Bad
 
@sehe I think it’s more of a rebranding. Not my term, and I don’t recall off-hand if the dumb_ptr paper uses it explictly—I think at least one contemporary paper used at at some point. In my own words, when the use of a type in an API conveys a clear intent. e.g. void sink(std::unique_ptr<foo> delicious); tells everything (and any argument is going to get ate).
 
eaten
but otherwise yes, I agree
 
@LucDanton So it's like literate programming applied to type/signatures
 
7:56 AM
It’s in the C++ zeitgeist what with std::optional etc.
@ParkYoung-Bae I got distracted because I was thinking of getting my hair did.
 
LOL
 
Did something just happen?
 
yes. jokes have was fired
 
@sehe Well, it’s an opposite. In that literate programming is about putting natural language to the front—where we have absolutely none nor a need to have any (because everything can be deduced from the std::unique_ptr interface). Another opposite is the use of convention, where e.g. for void foo(const char* data); nothing obviously screams null-termination.
 
@LucDanton I seen
 
7:59 AM
No I mean I think somebody near me just disappeared.
 
Wow we speaks very good english here
 
Guys what do you do if you're an inmate and you want to paint?
 

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