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6:00 PM
Deep Blue was a chess-playing computer developed by IBM. It is known for being the first piece of artificial intelligence to win both a chess game and a chess match against a reigning world champion under regular time controls. Deep Blue won its first game against a world champion on February 10, 1996, when it defeated Garry Kasparov in game one of a six-game match. However, Kasparov won three and drew two of the following five games, defeating Deep Blue by a score of 4–2. Deep Blue was then heavily upgraded, and played Kasparov again in May 1997. Deep Blue won game six, therefore winning the six...
 
but you just used rational arguments against puppy and that's basically a waste of your keystrokes
 
Deep Blue from IBM once won on Kasparov
 
so there's that
 
right, so they had to build a supercomputer to compete against a human player, which is basically what I just said.
 
6:00 PM
The impossible game is also winnable by an AI, and it's definitely not trivial
 
let's move the goalposts
 
but there was a human input in one of the games, there was a move that was impossible even by the heuristic
 
who cares that deep blue was a thing in 1997
 
Same for mario
Or any racing game
 
so lounge is terrible as usual
anything new instead?
 
6:01 PM
the reason for that is to force win on kasparov, as a political move, since that news would sound like USA have superior technology, back in the 80s
 
besides, I'm honestly not sure how non-trivial I think that chess actually is.
 
i have to admit unplonking puppy has became a pretty niche source of humor if used in small doses
like fail compilation videos
but then you think "those people could be living next to me" and it somehow gets less fun
 
it's got quite a small board size and few different kinds of pieces
 
yo you know what else is small in size
 
lol
 
6:03 PM
can't remember the name but there is a japanese board game that is 3 dimensional, where you can stack pieces on top, unlike most board games on 2D, and it's way more complex. it was featured in an Anime HunterxHunter 2011.
 
Go still remains one of the most complex games we've managed to invent though
 
I thought it was a PL
 
well for some definitions of "complex"
@AngryShoe I don't care about shitty PLs
 
Go is played on a 19x19 grid, compared to an 8x8 grid for chess
 
How about this fishy game ?
 
6:06 PM
hence we can conclude that Go > Chess
 
input.getline is behaving strangely..
 
Size doesn't matter
 
Ugh. I hate the ifstream API...
 
@AngryShoe Size totally matters if your fundamental strategy for beating the game is to brute-force it and just prune a few subtrees
 
No, possible moves and how many different kinds of pieces you have is far more important
 
6:08 PM
the number of possible moves depends a lot on the size of the board.
 
Winning conditions also are important
 
Basically the rules of the game are important. You can't just take the grid size between different games and compare them like that.
 
the rules of the game are important, but all else being the same, an increase in grid size is a large increase in complexity.
 
"All else" being the game itself?
You mean comparing Chess in 8x8 vs 16x16?
 
6:11 PM
while we're at hearthstone
 
yeah, I guess that 16x16 Chess is basically unheard of, but that's another matter.
 
my deck sucks balls
 
Can it suck mine?
 
@Puppy I think that's "the number of maximum possible moves", since restrictions lower the number
 
obviously the total complexity of the game is a product of a number of factors, but grid size is an important factor.
 
6:12 PM
Today I played Magic: The Gathering and Smash Up. Good day.
 
@Puppy Depends on the game
 
@AngryShoe highest I could get was 13 and I am still losing to idiotic decks that top off with Ysera and Dr BOOM
 
so fucking annoying
 
Holy guacamole. The moment you start computing minors Laplace takes WAY more time!
 
6:13 PM
@AngryShoe Well, yeah, I guess it depends on whether or not you can prune all those subtrees or not.
 
i need two epic cards and they craft for 1600 dust each
 
@Puppy chess software running on phones competes separately from because the humand don't stand a chance.
 
otherwise the whole deck is just plain shitty and can't be improved
 
No need for supercomputers anymore.
 
@BartekBanachewicz All you need is a deck centered around that card that when played restores your hero's health to full
And then you are invincible
 
6:14 PM
@AngryShoe I've won against those multiple times
 
12 mins ago, by Puppy
besides, I'm honestly not sure how non-trivial I think that chess actually is.
 
it has been a long time since I've heard the word "prune", that reminds me of Alpha-Beta Pruning algorithm
 
i lost when they had Dr Boom. I won when they didn't.
 
Go software OTOH can barely survive medium players
 
6:15 PM
this card is just so fucking shittily overpowered that it's not even funny
 
Though lack of effort needs to be accounted for
 
but even getting the not-so-OP epics is just out of reach
 
There were a lot more man-hours put into chess AIs than Go AIs
 
I guess it really depends on what you think is trivial or not.
 
this game offers you 0 way to accelerate your progress whatsoever
 
6:16 PM
my impression of Go in general is that there's just too many subtrees
 
Go has vastly bigger state space
 
@Puppy board size is not the primary relevant factor since it doesn't influence the tree size so much in chess.
 
afair
 
IIRC current methods to beat Go players involve Monte Carlo algorithms.
 
The number of decisions in chess depends a lot on the pieces on the board, while in Go they depend on the empty spaces
 
6:17 PM
Current methods to beat Go players involve maces and sledgehammers
4
 
Opeth's 2011 album is pretty good.
@AngryLettuce Thanks.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ;; I'll keep that in mind for what I'm gonna goof off with then...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I guess I was imagining that if you had a bigger chess board, you would put more pieces on the empty squares ;p
 
Monte Carlo algorithm reminds me of how Taxi drivers would drive around a city
 
@Puppy my point is that Go's search space is much bigger than chess on the smaller Go boards (beginners play on 9x9 for example)
 
6:19 PM
yeah
I didn't say that grid size was the only factor, only that it was an important factor
also apparently Go can include infinitely recursive loops and things like that
 
Nah
There's a rule against it.
 
Wikipedia said that the rule only applies one move back, so you can still go back to the previous state indirectly by doing something different in the meantime
 
You can't do a move that puts the board on a state it has previously been in
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ko
 
@Puppy nah. It applies indefinitely. In practice you can do just one move and it won't be an issue
 
6:22 PM
yeah I misread the limits of the rule.
 
It's really really really unlikely you can get back to a much older position.
It'd have to be a pathological play by both sides
 
I am back!
 
That rule is actually an important tactical tool, and it occurs often in the "one move back" form.
More than one move back is virtually nonexistant
 
I guess that for me, non-trivial games must require creativity (and theory of mind, if multiplayer) to advance.
 
@AngryShoe Nice!
 
6:26 PM
@AlexM. I love it
... to sleep
 
@Puppy then checkers is trivial and chess and Go have not been proven so.
I'm inclined to think of chess as trivial under that definition.
 
hmm
 
modern chess play requires you to remember a lot certainly
 
Also the tree of possible moves for chess is pretty much infinite
 
that's the prime reason I don't play it
 
6:27 PM
Very few leaves
 
it's difficult to qualify Go either way
 
Not entirely sure about Go. I don't have a good enough grasp of the game to gauge whether it's likely to be so.
 
@AngryShoe but the openings and closings are quite numbered
 
there is also anti-chess, where you try to lose your pieces or force the other guy to checkmate you
 
@BartekBanachewicz yup
 
6:28 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Go often uses "instinct" or "intuition" to describe best moves. Whether they are creative or not...
 
there's some situations which clearly denote a game as non-trivial, but it's not clear if any of them occur in Go
 
@AlexM. It's just people talking over and over and over. How do you manage to like such a game?
 
Go doesn't collapse into a definite set of closings like chess at least
 
Get me to the mindless action already
 
6:29 PM
I think
 
Go is nice game.
 
that I'm probably inclined to suggest that it is trivial
 
user1804599
Go is a nice programming language.
 
frankly, triviality of the game means even less than turing completeness of a language in practice
 
6:30 PM
The problem with Go, IIRC, is that wrongly placed stone at the beginning of the game can lose you the whole game, if we are to believe stuff like Hikaru no Go. :)
 
@wilx not on 19x19 really
 
it seems to me that you don't have to employ creativity or theory of mind, when you have perfect information
 
@wilx it's not a problem because it's easy to place them properly.
 
there's anticipating opponent moves FWIW
 
it's just a question of whether you can calculate enough subtrees
 
6:31 PM
json empty_object_implicit = json({});
Hmm
I never though about this, but those parenthesis remind me of something...
 
@Puppy you don't have unless you assume perfect play is possible.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I guess that if you could clearly demonstrate that perfect play is impossible, you would have to employ theory of mind to get better results than random guess.
but I'm not sure, because your opponent isn't committed to any given subtree.
 
@AngryShoe talking is the thing you do the least in it tho
 
he doesn't have to decide his next move without knowing what your move is.
he can just wait and see if you've given him an opportunity and if so, take it.
 
I think you'd be bored by it simply because you spend 60% of the time walking around trying to explore and find items
30% in combat which is turn based and slow
10% in dialogues
it's metro 2033: the RPG
 
6:36 PM
not sure.
 
@Puppy it's possible to force opponent play
 
user1804599
@AngryShoe of a vulva
 
I'll never understand why this dpi scaling in w8 exists
I mean I know why it exists
but what kind of display must you have
so that the results are not blurry
 
@AlexM. 1920x1080@12.5"?
 
because I've never seen it work without blurrying everything
 
6:38 PM
@AlexM. you're misusing it then
 
I'm not misusing it lol
 
you probably mean dpi matching not dpi scaling
 
it's by default on
I have to go to every program's compatibility tab
to disable scaling for high dpi screens or w/e
 
in which case yes dpi matching is by definition stretched
 
I have a 16.4" 1080p screen
 
6:39 PM
fuck windows lel
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, but your opponent can always see those things coming, since he has perfect information.
 
When you consider that the tree bottoms out eventually (worst case when you visit all the states) and that there are no draws (theres a half point tie breaker for white), it starts to seem trivial.
 
I can't seem to find a way to disable it in the cmd window
it's sooo blurry :< :<
fuck windows on phones
fuck windows on tablets
 
@Puppy true but then you're always playing defense, and I'm not sure that is a viable strategy.
 
user1804599
6:40 PM
This is great.
 
I just want windows on my pc
 
user1804599
I love the facial expressions.
 
(My empirical experience says it's a terrible strategy but I'm not that good)
 
Many of you guessed correctly. YES, it's a @MythBusters reunion with @KariByron @grantimahara & @ToryBelleci!!! https://t.co/5QfuGbHz9d
@AlexM. I think I want OSX on my PC
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You don't have to always play defense; you can just play a slightly different offense or even just put yourself in a good position where being forced isn't enough of a downside
 
6:41 PM
But your opponent won't let you put yourself in that position :p
 
he has to play defensive to avoid being forced too ;p
 
You have to assume your opponent is perfect too
 
if you can have a perfect offense where you can't be forced, then you can play it; else, he is playing an imperfect offense you can use to force him
 
Yeah, anyway my feel of the game so far is very instinctive so don't put too much value on what I say about that. But no draws + finite play seems to imply it's trivial to me.
 
yeah
I think that if you have finite play, turn-based and perfect information, it is trivial.
 
6:44 PM
Even if you never make a mistake, someone wins at the end.
 
that certainly doesn't make it non-trivial ;p
 
technically there are potential games that never end
 
Go is actually known to be biased towards one of the players since ever, hence the half-point tie breaker.
@KhaledAKhunaifer not in Go, by definition.
There's a finite number of states of the board because the board is finite. No state can be revisited (one of the two rules of the game). There are no infinite games. QED.
Airplane mode now. Laterz.
 
see you
 
@AlexM. s/ on tablets// :P
 
user1804599
6:51 PM
 
Sorry, guys, partied hard yesterday. @ScarletAmaranth @user3886129
Working on it now, tho :P
 
did you endrunken yourself
 
@ElimGarak REALLY?! you're a day late and you come with THIS?! :D
 
"shut yur geggy" hahaha i love these dwarves
 
6:53 PM
@AlexM. As far as Somersby would let me :D
 
hmm
 
@ScarletAmaranth :D I know, betrayal :(
 
this could be officially awkward.
 
I have no idea what to do for my degree project
 
trying to parse either command-line arguments or JSON structure into driver commands.
 
6:54 PM
I want it to ideally have something to do with a subtopic of AI
 
procedural porn generator, @AlexM.
 
be written in a functional language
 
maybe I should simply compile separate executables.
 
and use a unity scene for simulation
maybe something that recognizes markings on a race track and does some driving
 
Scrotumcrescent
 
6:55 PM
@ScarletAmaranth is porn subtitling ok :P
as long as I'm subtitling normal porn and not hentai
hentai is pretty hard because it uses sequences of words like
"her boobs are so big the earth started orbiting around them!!!"
 
I see you have vast experience with Hentai
 
of course
to attain unlimited... things
you just introduce a mad pervy scientist experiment plot
let me see what kind of racetrack kits there are on the unity store
 

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