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8:04 AM
@Mysticial do you plan on releasing your code as open source in the future (perhaps when your record gets broken?)
 
Probably not for a while - if ever.
 
:(
you don't believe your code could be useful in other areas?
 
k building gcc now
 
or perhaps so useful you could sell it?
 
I may however, release the code for sufficiently old versions that no longer have anything of value.
@orlp That I would consider for the right price.
@Xeo Your avatar is shit and therefore you are shit. :)
 
8:06 AM
@Mysticial I should probably stop asking questions, I'm bothering you and I don't want to give the impression I'm interested in acquiring your secret stuff.
my curiosity always gets the better of me :(
 
No it's fine. I get asked these questions a lot.
 
 
The only time I actually do get annoyed are the open source FSF fanbois which press the topic for multiple emails.
At some point, I tell them to fuck off.
And not always in a polite manner.
 
I'm strongly in favor of free software.
 
I open source some of my projects. My Pi program is not one of them.
 
8:09 AM
But freedom also means you're free to keep your own stuff.
 
The other big project that I don't open source is my personal encryption app. Which we (me and my Dad) use within the family.
 
oops
forgot to pass --jobs 8
 
Both the algorithm and source code are closed up.
 
@Mysticial I'm obligated to mention Kerckhoffs's principle even though you're probably aware of it
 
@orlp Yep I know. I can't go into the details, but it's an extra layer on top of currently unbroken algorithms. So it's at least as strong as what's out there right now.
 
8:11 AM
@Mysticial this is not necessarily true
can you indulge details on how you combined your algorithms with current algorithms?
 
Of course not.
 
then I'm afraid I can't give you better than vague advice
 
Nothing like unsolicited advice. :P One benefit of an added custom layer is keeping it secret. :P
 
:)
 
but unless great care is taken with the scheme, combined primitives are often weaker than the weakest of their parts :)
@Mysticial is the en/decryption software ran on airgapped computers?
 
8:14 AM
Air gapped computers?
 
because if not I'm afraid that the parties you most likely want to defend against have access to the full details of your algorithm
@Mysticial not connected to internet or other computers
 
Physical isolation, basically
 
@orlp It's connected. I never said it's full proof. But it's an extra wall that the attacker has to bring down.
 
sounds pretty garbage
sorry m8
 
They would first have to reverse engineer the binary. Break a currently unbroken algorithm. Then break the internal algorithm. They might as well just use a keylogger.
 
8:18 AM
@Mysticial the binary? did you develop the source on an air gapped computer? :P
I mean, I don't have time to be paranoid
 
@orlp I found the pictures on your computer.
 
but I'm fairly confident in what's realistically possible in intel
 
We need to talk. :D
 
@ElimGarak No problem mate, I'll start my text2speech on your laptop right now - please grab your laptop from your living room and move upstairs.
 
@orlp lol. Come to think of it, I don't even remember where I put the source code for it.
I'd have to look around.
 
8:20 AM
@Mysticial Security through forgetity
 
I hope it didn't get lost through all those computer changes I've had.
 
also
obligatory
 
@orlp That doesn't work too well, if I can't find my fucking source code.
 
@Mysticial it's rude to disturb your code while it's fucking
 
lol, Alexander Graham Bell & Charles Darwin in Assassin's Creed Syndicate. Also, Charles Dickens. He's been talking to me about his phonetic telegraph, my character suggested calling it a telephone, which he wrote off without a second thought. :D During the mission where we were fixing his comm lines.
 
8:24 AM
@Mysticial either way, last part of unsolicited advice, I have to say that rolling your own encryption is rather odd when the vast, vast (I believe all - for unbroken primitives) majority of code is cracked through side-channel attacks, bad implementations, key escrow (intel microcode, AES-NI? get fukt), keyloggers, hardware attacks, etc
in particular AES-NI
I don't know why you'd ever want to trust that
when microcode updates will pwn you in the blink of an eye
 
@orlp Oh I know. I didn't write the thing for this purpose. It wrote it out of curiosity. And after a while both of us started using it carry files overseas.
 
I think that I'd make a decent employee at one of the big TLA agencies
I'm too ideological for that though
but perhaps I'm smug, misguided and vain
yesterday, by orlp
@R.MartinhoFernandes I struggle with Dunning-Kruger daily =/
@R.MartinhoFernandes QED ^
 
I wonder if the USPS delivers mail on Sundays.
 
it depends
 
good answer
 
8:34 AM
it's the honest one
if the package is still at a usps facility then they won't take it out until monday
 
I'm a bit impatient for the ram I ordered last week.
 
if it's in transit then it'll still be delivered
(so for most people the answer is "no")
 
yesterday, by Elim Garak
Well, Friday was a miss for the new SSD, guess I have to wait for Monday for it to be delivered. :'(
Join the club!
 
they deliver on saturdays though
 
I need it by Wednesday since I'm flying out.
 
8:35 AM
@Mysticial I figured out why I was so puzzled at my 5 cycle fast_sin
I was looking at the wrong assembly
on my haswell it's just some fma's
 
5 cycle sin... How accurate is it?
5 cycle latency or throughput?
 
I know it's throughput, not sure about latency
relative and absolute error is both 9.39e-7
 
SO basically 10 FMAs for 10^-6-ish?
 
@Mysticial 4 :)
 
Oh
I'm guessing there's more to it than just a few FMAs.
 
8:39 AM
@Mysticial the other stuff is mostly parallel to the FMA
 
ah
 
I might be a cycle off
it might be 6 (or very unlikely 7)
 
So one of the big problems in Bignum arithmetic are the twiddle factors for large FFTs.
 
but either way it's very, very fast
 
The problem is that you need full precision sin/cos output.
 
8:41 AM
@Mysticial I've looked around for iterative algorithms for sin/cos
but didn't find any
 
So as much as I've wanted to use these awesome low-precision tricks, they don't work.
 
I figured maybe my algorithm could be useful as a starting point for iteration
 
Right now the solution is just to precompute most of them. That's a lot of memory. And a lot of bandwidth.
 
(just like the fast invsqrt hack uses newton after the cool part)
@Mysticial you need full double precision?
or BigNum precision?
 
@orlp Yeah
Full double-precision sin/cos.
 
8:42 AM
@Mysticial down to the last ulp?
because if not I could roll another version for you
 
@orlp Not all the way. But close to the end.
 
which uses more terms in the polynomial
 
A few months ago, I spent some time reverse engineering the FFTs of some of the older Pi programs.
 
@Mysticial heh that's why you're paranoid? :P
 
In one of them, I found calls to the x87 FPU sin/cos.
So it's not like I'm the only one who hadn't solved the problem.
 
8:44 AM
@Mysticial what's the precision of x87 sin/cos?
and latency/throughput
(just a ballpark)
 
@orlp I don't know what mode that code was running it in. But I'm gonna guess double-precision mode. And sin/cos is probably around ~200 cycles?
 
@Mysticial ouchh
 
Granted, the places where you need it are probably the most memory-bound anyway.
 
@Mysticial can you give me an exact bound of the absolute minimum precision you need?
or as low of a minimum bound that you're sure of?
 
@orlp There's no cut-off. The higher the precision, the faster the FFT algorithms becomes. So it's a trade-off.
Right now, I'm pulling them all from memory.
 
8:47 AM
@Mysticial if I give you a function can you easily quantify it's effectiveness?
or is that a multiple hour long benchmark?
 
That's tough to estimate.
 
because if you want to I can see if I can cook something 10-15 cycles
which will have good (but not standard-library perfect) precision
 
But if it's more than like 2 ulps, it's useless as far as practicality goes.
 
@Mysticial does performance degrade that quickly?
 
It's more complicated than that. But there's an asympotote where the run-time and memory consumption shoots to infinity once the precision drops low enough.
There is one trick that my professor in grad-school taught me which is to use a multi-dimentional radix table.
It's not an algorithm for computing sin/cos, but it is an algorithm for generating the twiddle factors that are needed.
But it isn't very cache friendly.
 
8:50 AM
@Borgleader Ever wondered how could the Normandy's airlock chamber be wider than the ship itself in Alliance Dock 422?
 
@Mysticial how significant is this part of your pi computation?
 
@orlp Not very.
 
like, let's say my 6 cycle sin was perfectly accurate
how much of a speedup would it be?
 
Probably not more than 5%. I have other algorithms which take over above a threshold.
I believe prime95 also solves it by pulling them from memory.
Given that prime95 is the fastest FFT in the entire fucking world for x86, I'm tempting to think there isn't much room to do better.
 
8:53 AM
you FFT for multiplication, right?
 
The FFT is one of like 6 or 7 algorithms that I use.
I've lost track of how I have in there.
 
also, are you ever worried that your computation is incorrect?
I know you use multiple algorithms to confirm some digits
 
There are redundancy checks which take care of that to arbitrary probability.
So that's not the issue.
 
@Mysticial what's the input domain for the sin for FFT?
 
FFT twiddle factors are all points on the unit circle in the complex plane.
 
8:57 AM
@Mysticial eehm, maybe I'm confused, but don't you feed sin an angle?
that angle could still be 10000pi
 
Fuck... I don't know. I wanna way it stays below 2pi. But I'm not 100% sure.
 
[0, 2pi]?
 
yeah
 
if it was [0, pi] I don't have to range reduce
or even [-pi, pi]
wait, I can do that
-pi and invert result
err not quite
but I can do that
 
Come to think of it. Maybe my professor's approach is viable.
Suppose you need N twiddle factors. To store all of that, you need O(N) memory. And you need to pull O(N) bytes in and out of cache during a pass.
The 2D algorithm reduces it to sqrt(N) memory. But at the cost of two random accesses to the table and a complex number multiply.
3D algorithm brings it to N^(1/3). 3 random accesses, and 2 complex multiplies.
If you choose something large enough to fit in cache.
 
9:06 AM
Ugg I partied too hard tonight, how will I install Gentoo?
 
19
Q: Best machine-optimized polynomial minimax approximation to arctangent on [-1,1]?

njuffaFor the simple and efficient implementation of fast math functions with reasonable accuracy, polynomial minimax approximations are often the method of choice. Minimax approximations are typically generated with a variant of the Remez algorithm. Various widely available tools such as Maple and Mat...

man that answer is SO FRUSTRATING
sure it has a detailed description of how he arrived at that function
but man, if that had some code with it :(
 
wow
Lots of long answers on that.
 
fuck those are well written asnwers
 
@orlp Btw, AVX512 seems to have some instructions which are specifically meant for these sorts of things.
 
I wonder if somebody at Intel knows the right answer
 
9:08 AM
@Mysticial I'd love to stay on top of the game
but I'm a student
I can't afford a new chip every tock
or even ticks nowadays
 
I haven't paid too much attention to them since they're out of my scope. But they do seem to target trig functions.
 
Find an internship company, put your SO score in your interview
 
@orlp Don't worry, Intel is taking it's fine ass time with AVX512.
You won't see it in mainstream processors probably until late 2017 at the earliest.
 
AVX512 doesn't seem to have many advantages according to the Phoronix benchmarks
 
@Mikhail Someone already benchmarked AVX512?
 
9:10 AM
Has anybody had their lives changed due to AVX612?
I assume the Skylake benchmarks do that?
 
Nope.
 
So do you have to grep the ASM for VS+Whatever, to find that GCC has reason to inssert your 512 opcodes?
 
The current Skylake line is just the notebook line. No AVX512. Only the server line will have it, and that's 2H 2017.
 
To clarify, we don't have a 512 AVX chip today?
 
Nope.
Unless you have an engineering sample of Knights Landing Xeon Phi.
 
9:13 AM
I might be able to get one if I contact my friends as Cray :-)
Then what the fuck did I buy when I just got a CPU?
 
@Mikhail What the fuck did you just buy?
 
The most expensive skylake chip I could find? Something like a i7 @ 4ghz with the turbo boost
 
Oh. Yeah, no AVX512.
 
sad
On the other hand I'm mostly IO limited
 
My new laptop doesn't have it either. I knew that before I got it, but I needed a new laptop anyway.
 
9:15 AM
hrm
 
But the laptop does have ADX which I spent a few hours playing with.
 
maybe I miscomputed the maximum error of my approximation function
 
The new samsung 950 is like 4x faster for iO
the IO singularity is approching
 
I do wonder how much faster it's gonna get.
 
Its about 2x faster in partice
But on the other hand, IO has been incremental
actually everything is incremental
 
9:21 AM
hrm
or maybe I did calculate the precision correctly
OHH
it returns the position of the max error
not the error itself
 
Fuckers from the store recognized my face simply because I had been there before.
I was like WTF. Where's my privacy?
This should be illegal.
 
yo is it possible with zsh
to pipe a file into the stdin of a program
but then keep an interactive program
 
sbi
Good morning.
 
without active support for that from the program?
morning gorilla
 
9:35 AM
pls no
 
y u do dis
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked The area of Berlin (Prenzlauer Berg) where I lived with my girlfriend in the 90s was back then still full of small shops, bakeries, etc. We usually went shopping together on Saturdays, walking from baker to butchery to some small food shop, buying our groceries. If on some Saturday, for whatever reason, I went alone, some of these shop owners would ask me "is she sick?"
My girlfriend reported the same when she went alone.
 
nice :)
 
sbi
Yes, I loved that.
The (semi-)embedded hardware we're using has non-volatile RAM (NVRAM). We have employed that before, as a byte buffer: Of a 500k buffer, the upper bytes were reserved for the current number of occupied bytes, the rest was either data or unoccupied memory. When the system dies, after restart it's easy to read back those bytes in order to know how big the occupied memory is where the data resides.
 
@Mikhail "It outperforms SATA SSDs by over 4.5 times in sequential read and by over 2.5 times in sequential write, delivering the speeds of 2,500 MB/s and 1,500 MB/s respectively."
Sounds good.
 
sbi
9:40 AM
However, for this, the NVRAM buffer was just one big blob of bytes. When read, all that needed to be done to that blob was to flush it to a file on the flash memory. Now I need to employ the NVRAM for buffering individual objects of arbitrary size, and I need to find those objects and read them back in. So I need a kind of a directory.
Does anyone of you have an idea what would be a good data structure for this?
 
the most obvious I can see is to have a delimited lists of indices to the memory, for example [64, 128, 0]
 
sbi
@milleniumbug What do you mean when you say "delimited list"?
 
the last element would be a sentinel value, just like C-strings do with their '\0' character
 
sbi
Ah.
Well, a list of indices is kinda obvious, I think. However, how much room do you pre-allocate for the list? Or do I grow it from the upper end of the memory, like a stack?
 
If you can guarantee it's under a known address, then you can read until you see the sentinel value
 
9:55 AM
@sbi What is the smallest object that you store there?
 
@Mysticial not taking rounding errors into account
 
How often do you need to allocate new object there? I.e., can the allocation be O(n)?
 
once every 2 months
 
if the objects have limited size and stored in contiguous memory, then you can have the index, and the list of sizes
 
8 terms (rather than my current 4) would bring precision to 1.44e-16
 
sbi
9:56 AM
@milleniumbug Yes, but if the list is at the lower end of the memory, I will have to pre-allocate a piece of memory that's not to be used for storing objects, but to be reserved for the list. But the objects differ in size, so the length of the list can vary wildly.
@wilx A few bytes. Some can be a few kBytes.
 
(both max and relative error)
(for some reason sollya likes to make them equivalent)
 
sbi
@wilx Up to every few msecs. It should be fast. Ideally, I would just dump an object at the current end of the list, jot in the address/index behind it, and be done.
Well, speaking of ideally: It's supposed to be FIFO queue. Maybe a ringbuffer would be great.
 
hmm, that complicates it a bit
 
sbi
But then, maybe objects will have priorities (that's not decided yet), and need to be processed according to those...
 
@sbi do you need to search on index?
or can you do 'swap-and-delete'
(does order matter within the collection)
 

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