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2:00 PM
@AndyProwl is that reason enough to leave it UB? :P
 
@thecoshman IIRC the explanation given is that humans being the younger species, it hasnt had time to "average" out, if I can call it that :)
 
@thecoshman nah, it was just a consideration
 
@Morwenn No
All three might be done in any order
 
according to the new proposal?
 
Only guarantee is that they'll be done before the call
 
2:01 PM
@CatPlusPlus hint: talking about new spec thing
 
user3790646
Hello
 
Oh
Yet another change in C++ semantics
 
inline variables: in the end, only available for constants and not every global variable ever.
 
How did I not see that coming
 
> Offer me one great Microsoft engineer for five “solid” ones: I gladly take the exchange.
heh
people obsess over those 10x programmers
 
2:05 PM
10x of 0 is still 0
ho h oho
 
:)
makes sense
 
oooh, I think I'll do cheese on toast for dinner. Must pick up some Worcestershire sauce though.
 
constexpr lambdas, constexpr_if, guaranteed copy elision... it seems that many things were adopted in Kona.
 
@Morwenn Did some further changes that actually make the original one actually, err, do what it was supposed to... now GCC and Clang consistently vomit 20+ error messages that seem to be roughly the same ones. :D
 
user3790646
Hmm I've been thinking, do you guys think most of the Boost library should be added right away to C++?
 
user406009
2:07 PM
@Andrey They are adding it in parts.
 
user406009
Boost is too large to be added to C++ in whole.
 
@Griwes Wow, seems like an improvement xD
 
@Andrey It's Boost not BOOST, and it's a set of libraries, not "a library".
 
user406009
It is important to keep the size of the standard library down.
 
@Morwenn :D
 
2:08 PM
@Griwes Are there things in the way I wrote the code that compiled with g++ but shouldn't have for sure?
 
user406009
Anyways, sometimes the C++ standard disagrees with Boost. cough retarded std::variant cough
 
Ell
@Morwenn why do people want deterministic order of eval?
 
Because they're bad
 
@Morwenn I don't know ;p
 
user406009
@Andrey For interest's sake, which additional parts do you think should be added?
 
2:09 PM
@Ell Because things that have been working for years would actually break if the compiler weren't already evaluated in deterministic order.
 
user3790646
@Lalaland I'm still new to using it, but I think it's a pretty good "set" of libraries as far as I've seen
 
The given example of what is UB under the current rules:
std::string s = “but I have heard it works even if you don’t believe in it”;
s.replace(0, 4, “”).replace(s.find(“even”), 4, “only”).replace(s.find(“ don’t”), 6, “”);
assert(s == “I have heard it works only if you believe in it”);
 
user406009
@Andrey It's really huge though (boost.org/doc/libs)
 
user406009
Which is both good and bad.
 
@Lalaland Eh, not really
 
2:11 PM
@Lalaland ugh so close
 
Making void a regular type was rejected.
 
user406009
@Morwenn That was a sorta cool proposal.
 
user406009
I actually thought it was a good idea.
 
Ell
@Morwenn but that just means people have been relying on UB, right?
 
2:12 PM
@Ell Exactly, but also that even experts weren't able to tell it was UB.
 
Ell
hmm
 
Ell
fair enough I guess
 
> Unfortunately, to match existing semantics, maintain ABI compatibility, and maintain C compatibility, making void “ordinary” requires almost as many special cases as we currently have. So the proposal was rejected.
 
Ell
what is the advantage of undeterministic order of eval? performance?
 
2:13 PM
@Morwenn What's UB about it, again?
 
Probably method calls not being sequenced one after another
 
@Morwenn Alright, fixed a silly thing I did. Back to 6 errors on Clang. :D
 
@Ell Yep, performance, but recent benchmarks showed that it didn't make a difference most of the time.
 
user406009
Darn ABI compatibility and C compatibility.
 
@Borgleader It's a popular trope.
 
2:14 PM
@Jefffrey I don't remember. See, it's not obvious and you'd expect it to work just fine.
 
Still getting the ones about trying to use void value in both GCC and Clang :/
 
@Borgleader lol, "average" out. The reason humans are the only ones displaying cultural and ethnic variety is Godwin.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm not saying it isn't. I just felt like bringing that up because I read about it recently and it was relevant to the conversation :)
 
@CatPlusPlus But they have to be.
 
Not wrt arguments
 
2:15 PM
Subsequent method calls depend on the return value of previous ones.
 
Gonna try to do this some more again in the evening.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You know what I meant -.-;
 
@Griwes We should use that library as a case study for compiler implementers and language lawyers.
 
Arguments to replace are evaluated before replace calls in some order.
So the order is find > replace for each replace call.
 
user406009
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, haven't we seen a good deal of averaging out?
 
2:15 PM
All finds could be evaluated before the entire method chain if there's no sequence points (or whatever they call them now) at dots
 
user406009
Most of Europe and the US are quire similar in culture.
 
Ell
@Morwenn idk, this would make me double take
 
@Lalaland And guess why.
 
@Lalaland Who would've guessed
 
Did you forget what happened to the different cultures of the New World? They were "averaged out".
 
2:16 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes WE’RE ALIENS
 
It seems that some version of template parameter deduction for constructors has been approved too.
 
@CatPlusPlus But two subsequent finds are sequenced because the method call in which they are wrapped are sequenced.
 
They're not "wrapped" in anything
 
Humans are young, so they haven't been dicks long enough to "average it all out".
 
user406009
@Morwenn Has anyone proposed a proposal to turn constructors into regular functions?
 
2:18 PM
@Lalaland Nope.
 
@Lalaland That's called Rust
 
@Morwenn dafuq is constexpr_if
 
user406009
I mean, I guess you could write lambdas manually.
 
is it like static if?
 
constexpr_static_volatile_rvalue_ref_if
 
2:18 PM
Approva of the attributes [[fallthough]], [[unused]] and [[nodiscard]] too? Seriously, the report said that most of the proposals were rejected. But that stil makes many accepted features.
@AndyProwl A subset of static_if. Basically it introduces a new scope and can only be used in functions.
 
doesn't sound super-useful
are both branches required to compile?
 
user406009
Haskell actually did it sorta properly.
 
@AndyProwl It has some uses to replace some annoying SFINAE overloads.
 
> 3 sodas/coffee a day incl. service to fill up the machine = 45€
 
2:20 PM
@CatPlusPlus s.find is "wrapped" in a replace in "replace(s.find(...), ...)" because the result of find is sequenced before the body of the function.
 
I see
 
hacker news
 
@Jefffrey No
 
@AndyProwl They are both required to be valid C++ but I don't know the details.
 
15€ sodas
 
2:20 PM
@Morwenn got it
 
and these people discuss start-ups
 
user406009
@Mr.kbok Well, they discuss everything in general.
 
> When calling a function (whether or not the function is inline), every value computation and side effect associated with any argument expression, or with the postfix expression designating the called function, is sequenced before execution of every expression or statement in the body of the called function.
 
user406009
It's sorta similar to reddit/r/programming
 
I'm not getting a boner for any C++17 feature so far
 
Ell
2:21 PM
@Mr.kbok you gotta be shittin me man
 
§1.9/15 of N4527
 
Ell
@AndyProwl concepts!
 
@Ell Not sure that will be in C++17
 
user406009
@AndyProwl std::variant!
 
it might remain a TS
@Lalaland still not getting a boner
 
2:21 PM
@Jefffrey That doesn't mean it's sequenced before any specific part of the call expression
 
I'm already using variants
 
In f(x, y) f, x and y can be evaluated in any order
 
@Ell those people be crazy
 
Because that's not what I'm claiming
@CatPlusPlus Yes, but it's irrelevant in this case.
 
modules and reflection would change things
 
user406009
2:22 PM
@AndyProwl But now you can use them in public APIs without endless criticism.
 
soda is €0.30 everyone knows that
 
@Lalaland not enough for boners :P
 
There are no x and y for which they are both method calls of s in the above example.
 
@AndyProwl Those were only the anguage features. There's also a shitload of library features.
 
So if there's no explicit sequencing on . the finds could very well be evaluated like a = find(), b = find(), s.replace(a, ..).replace(b, ..)
 
Ell
2:22 PM
@Mr.kbok £1 from a vending machine in my accommodation
or £2.50 for 6 I think from a shop
 
@Morwenn Yeah, I should have clarified I'm talking about language features mostly
 
@Ell Sure, I meant if you're buying in bulk
 
For me library features aren't game changers
 
@AndyProwl Well, there are still concepts and transactional memory in the TSs.
 
@CatPlusPlus No, because evaluation of a is sequenced before the execution of the first replace, which is sequenced before the execution of the second replace.
 
2:23 PM
@Morwenn Right, and modules, but those are TSs
 
That doesn't matter for argument evaluation jesus
 
@AndyProwl What about std::source_location, it will like totally change the way we write code! :o
 
Yes, it matters. It doesn't matter within the same function/method call.
 
@Morwenn looking forward so much :P
 
What are you talking about even
 
2:24 PM
For example fn(a, b, c), a and b and c can be evaluated in any order.
 
@Morwenn where's that pic of yours saying "look at all the fucks I give"
 
@CatPlusPlus The above example?
The one @Morwenn posted.
Do you remember that one?
 
It doesn't pick a part of expression to evaluate
 
@AndyProwl Somewhere in that chat.
 
The entire statement is evaluated at once
 
2:25 PM
Ugh
 
That they're in separate () doesn't change anything
Hence why it could be UB
Imagine it's replace(replace(replace(s, ...), ...), ...) instead
 
user3790646
Just found out a girl that wanted to have a relationship with me died of cancer in the beginning of this year :/
 
@Xeo does my avatar have a white background on your dark theme?
 
your avatar has a white background on all themes :P
 
shite
 
2:28 PM
> Guess what was the ultimate items they scrimped on? Toilet paper. You read it right and I am not kidding. They swapped 3-ply to 2-ply and that was when I called it quit. The company went bankrupt after 1.5 years.
 
I don't think SO keeps transparency
 
learn to know the signals of a failing company
 
It's the "mutate and access in the same expression" thing like in i++ + i or whatever
 
@Andrey oof. That's close. How old was she?
 
best way to check for avatar background, pick avatar up and drag it somewhere else
 
user406009
2:29 PM
@Mr.kbok Maybe they were just having plumbing issues?
 
user406009
Too much bullshit all the way up the corporate ladder.
 
user3790646
:26812832 She was 15 when she died, I think
 
@AndyProwl JPEG doesn't support transparency
 
I see
so Feeds' avatar is handled specially?
 
2:30 PM
ok
 
hm, I thought SO converts png to jpg
but it kept mine in png
it did resize it from 170x170 to 384x384 or w/e tho
 
wait how do you know my avatar is in JPEG then
 
(I don't know)
 
Magic
 
2:31 PM
it's a jpg file
 
I see
 
Don't rely on extensions in URLs
 
butt wizard
 
in the PAST you could RMB an image to get information aboot it
 
You still can
 
2:33 PM
The change I welcome is the rewording of inheriting constructors.
 
Oh yeah, just to make it clear: the changes I talked about have been accepted by EWG. They can still be rejected by full committee vote before C++17 actually ships.
 
user406009
When are they voting?
 
> An indie game where you recognize the developer and it's sort of a parody.
 
@Andrey ouch. That's ... .very young. (Also to be in a relationship, near where I live).
 
2:36 PM
@Lalaland Along the meetings?
 
@Andrey Strangely, a classmate of my eldest died last year, also of cancer (age 11). And she has another classmate with a brain tumor.
Go figure.
 
user406009
@CatPlusPlus that's actually a somewhat decent idea for an artistic sort of game. Sorta like the Stanley Parable.
 
Life isn't fair.
 
user3790646
@sehe I see. I feel like I'm to blame...
 
@AlexM. Yah.
 
2:38 PM
@Nooble it sounds italian and shit
you're a broggio too
 
Hehe.
 
Woot woot
I'll start a new job next March.
 
what will you be working on?
 
@Andrey Ooh. That's awkward. I guess I don't have to repeat to you that doesn't make sense.
 
user406009
Congrats!
 
2:39 PM
rip
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes nice :)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes :) tell us more!
Must be something solid. Considering the time frames
 
user3790646
@sehe Life is indeed not fair. Well I used to have existential crisis when I was younger, I couldn't help but think I would die someday
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes google is opening an office to accomodate for you not moving? :p
 
user3790646
@sehe I guess having fears keeps us alive..
 
user406009
2:41 PM
Well, we all die eventually. There is still no reason not to live live to its fullest though.
 
@Mr.kbok lol no
 
@Mr.kbok That's strange considering he's moved across Europe already
 
user1804599
> Celebrate your friendship with Scott W!
Radek, you two became friends on Facebook 1 year ago today.
 
@AlexM. Power plant stuff.
 
user3790646
2:41 PM
@Lalaland Right, I think that nowadays :)
 
@Elyse gratz
 
@Elyse :celebrate:
 
ITT robot is tasked with programming chernobyl in cobol
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes sounds interesting.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes sounds hardcore
 
2:42 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hey. You moved in with sbi's (former?) cpy?
Yes. <padding/> <padding/> <padding/> <padding/> — sehe 2 mins ago
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Whoa.
 
user1804599
shieldpadding
 
@CatPlusPlus I don't know. To me it looks like in f(f(a, b, c), d, e) a, b and c are sequenced before d, and e.
 
@sehe have you tried using bananas for padding? 🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌
 
@sehe for v small boobs
 
2:43 PM
I can't keep track of this shit anymore.
 
They're not sequenced before f, why would they be sequenced before d and e?
 
Yeah, maybe you are right.
Maybe there's something special about obj.m(...) as opposed to m(obj)
Maybe some other rule takes place.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Congratz :) That being said I think you got 2 new jobs since I got mine. how are you such a hot commodity? T_T
 
@Jefffrey You have all these things to evaluate: 2 fs (call them f0 and f1), a, b, c, d, e, and two function calls (call them f0c and f1c). Only two of those that impose an order, the function calls. So using -> to represent "must be evaluated before", you have a -> f1c, b -> f1c, c -> f1c, f1 -> f1c, f1c -> f0c, d -> f0c, e -> f0c, and f0 -> f0c. The -> relation is transitive so you also have a -> f0c, b -> f0c, c-> f0c, and f1 -> f0c.
This -> relation is a partial order and there's no ordering between a and d.
@sehe whistles
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I guess I was wrong
 
2:52 PM
> hot
 
user406009
@Jefffrey See, you should accept Haskell as your lord and saviour. Under the glory of Haskell, sequencing doesnt matter! /s
 
Oh, fuck off with this Haskell! :P
 
@Borgleader you can do it too, just job hop :P
 
I changed 3 jobs in the past 3 years
 
2:55 PM
@Borgleader I started working in 2011 and this will be my fourth job.
 
Hm. I've been at my current job for over 5 years now.
It's my 4th job.
 
Doesn't job hops look bad on your CV?
 
Not as bad as your face
7
 
depends
if you upgrade workplaces it's good
if you go to a meh workplace after sth great very quickly it'll likely seem like you were not capable enough
nobody can blame you for wanting to go with the bigger company if given an offer
 
user3790646
@AlexM. Your competitor can
 
2:58 PM
You can't infer quality of workplace from CV
 
nope, but if the companies are well known then you can take a guess
 
@Jefffrey vOv
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hmmm...I started working in 1984. I'm currently at my sixth (or depending on how you count things, maybe seventh) job.
 
I thought Bartek had issues about job hops
 
I don't think bartek changed many jobs
at most two, because the others were internships?
 
2:59 PM
@JerryCoffin I started working in 2022.
 
I get the impression people obsess about CVs too much, but maybe my experience is unusual.
 
yea I never used CVs
 
@AlexM. I don't know if he changed them, but I'm pretty sure they didn't change him much!
 
I just got offers on careers.so and linkedin, and when asked to I just printed the pages LOL
 
I've been at one job for 4? years and now I have a second one
Also still don't have a CV written
 
3:00 PM
it's kinda pointless to keep a separate CV when you have an online profile ready to print
 
Don't have that either
 
Also, lol, HR person sent me someone's CV in attachment instead of my contract.
 
Ell
fuck what happened
 
@CatPlusPlus How did you get your first job?
 
@CatPlusPlus guessing that you've applied then, you were not invited?
 
3:01 PM
aight, new haircut
 
Ell
> Libre office make a backup etc.
> Start recovery? Yes.
> Here's your file!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh man not even employed yet and you're already doing the interviews!
:P
 
Ell
it's a blank frikin file
 
yeah libreoffice sucks like that
 
3:02 PM
@AlexM. Invited
 
"I didn't finish my homework because LibreOffice ate it"
 
@Jefffrey At uni
 
@CatPlusPlus how were you even found without a profile? :O
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes 4 yrs, 4 jobs, I'm at almost two years and I havent changed (yet)
 
Had a lab class with my boss
 
3:02 PM
@Borgleader Five years. This one is pretty much over.
 
~~networking~~
 
@CatPlusPlus How was it?
 
How was what
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes vOv I assumed mid 2011 and rounded down
 
Sucking his dick to get the job
 
3:03 PM
Nah, most of it.
 
@CatPlusPlus The lab.
 
I don't remember anything from any classes
There were some OS theory things
 
How do you not remember anything from you classes? You have a shitload of memory
 
Classes are mostly there to remember that things exist to solve problem. They don't expect us to remember how to use all of these things.
 
They were boring
 
3:08 PM
@Jefffrey It's volatile.
 
That would make him pretty confused every time he wakes up
 
@Jefffrey Only when he doesn't remember to dump to storage.
Or maybe his memory is kept powered on by the same battery that powers his real-time clock.
So that's the cure for Alzheimers: CR2032.
 
3:34 PM
@JerryCoffin you stole the words out of my mouth
 
Give it back @JerryCoffin!
 
Alan Moore is a major dude. https://t.co/HYFRhtU0lk
Stylish
 
I'm going to movies with friends today. Haven't done this in a loooong time.
 
user1804599
who is alan moore
 
user1804599
inb4 "kids these days" from somebody who raises kids these days
 
3:42 PM
Kids these days.
 
> An artsy game where you type awkwardness (it's not really a game).
 
3:54 PM
How i can build a MTd in makefile visual studio ? -_-
set CC=cl -nologo -MT
set CC=cl -nologo -MTd ?
 
all compilation flags in VS start with / not -
 
i really don't know.
I just want to build lzo
:))
 

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