« first day (1444 days earlier)      last day (3506 days later) » 

6:01 AM
More actual results: 'Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You [are the best. The best thing ever]', 'Revenge is a dish best served [by a group of people in my room]', and 'They may take our lives, but they'll never take our [money].'
4
 
6:19 AM
man
you know what I really want?
constexpr argument overloads in C++, that can only take constexpr arguments
 
does being a prince/princess means you are umemployed? I mean, like most of the times they don't see to be doing anything other than ... occasionally visiting places?
 
is a king unemployed?
he does some job
but who employs him?
 
user1646075
@nightcracker self-employed.
 
@aclarke so can he stop the business?
 
user1646075
@nightcracker as history has proven
 
user1646075
6:30 AM
well, cripple the company anyway
 
Ancient kings are always occupied with ruling the kingdom - you know taxes, wars etc
not the modern ones, public pays them. but public also pays for social security which makes payments to the unemployed
 
user1646075
@chmod711telkitty dealing with curses...
 
slaying dragons...
 
user1646075
@nightcracker repressing magic
 
but a prince is simply a hereditary title
whether that title comes with a job depends
 
user1646075
6:33 AM
@nightcracker if the king dies before the prince is of age, the prince can be the top dog without being called king
 
WTF is a math degree worth if I can't express even the most basic things :(
 
user1646075
@BenjaminGruenbaum is this an algebra question?
 
@aclarke I'm trying to figure out what the inverse of a promise is.
Not sure what languages you're familiar with, a promise is a temporal singular getter. Some monads in Haskell (IO for example) fit that description, a similar thing is a Task in C#, or a Future in Scala.
It has a "bind" ( M a -> a -> M b -> M b ) , but I believe that's orthogonal to what I'm trying to understand.
I probably have to work with temporal logic, but I'm shit at that.
 
user1646075
breach? denial? are you looking for suitable words?
 
user1646075
renege
 
6:39 AM
lol, no, thanks though. I'm looking for what it is.
I want to know what the inverse operation of a Promise is, not how to call it. Just like a getter and a setter are duals.
 
user1646075
NFI - sounds like it should be covered by the science within the language of your choice, if they offer promises.... ?
 
As in, you can change the order of composing etc.
@aclarke not sure what you're saying there
 
you are not being clear
do you mean if a than !b
 
@chmod711telkitty it's hard to be clear when I'm not sure what I'm after. I want to find the inverse of a promise.
 
well, can't give an answer when you don't know what the question is ...
 
6:44 AM
I want to find an operation F such that a promise of F of X is the same as the F of a promise of X which is X - if I can't find that, I want an operation F such that F of a Promise of X returns an operation that 'continues' when the value is available, and then unavailable.
 
user1646075
@BenjaminGruenbaum not sure what I'm saying either!
 
user1646075
just fishing
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum A binding, fulfilling or resolve?
 
@nightcracker this is probably clearer
I have an answer there, but it's like shooting a bug with an elephant gun. And it's also "look, I can represent the inverse with Z" it doesn't mean that Z is the inverse, just like I can represent the (multiplicative) inverse of every (except 0) rational number with a real number but the inverse of the rationals is still the rationals.
 
Promise<F(X)> == F(Promise<X>)
 
6:46 AM
@nightcracker It should do that - but it's not just that though, that works for F(X) = X
 
> I want to find an operation F such that a promise of F of X is the same as the F of a promise of X which is X
I just literally rewrote what you said
 
Yeah, that's true, but that's not the only thing it should do.
 
you didn't describe anything else for your first option
 
A promise represents the move from a pending state, to a fulfilling state - that move is temporal (it takes time)
This inverse should additionally represent moving from a fulfilled state to a pending state.
 
A request?
 
6:48 AM
What do you mean?
 
I don't know
either way I'm confused
> I want to find an operation F such that a promise of F of X is the same as the F of a promise of X which is X - if I can't find that
 
user1646075
@BenjaminGruenbaum sounds like a reversal of a promise - "taking it back"
 
why is the thing I described not a proper fulfillment of this requirement?
 
@aclarke yeah, I'm not sure how to describe it.
 
user1646075
i agree, you don't know how to express what you aren't sure you want!
 
6:50 AM
@nightcracker it's not the only requirement.
 
user1646075
@BenjaminGruenbaum sleep on it, let your unconscious do it's thing
 
@aclarke I know that much.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum yes it is? you only described a second option if this doesn't exist
@BenjaminGruenbaum I want to find <first option> if I can't find that <second option>
 
@nightcracker I thought it was implied it should well... inverse a promise - ok I'm adding the requirement "And F is not the identity function"
 
why this arbitrary requirement?
if the identity function does what you want
because if it doesn't do what you want you're underspecifying what you want
 
6:51 AM
Because the requirement I can't express here is that promises are temporal.
Promises represent temporal values, that are not available yet and might be available in the future.
 
so you want a temporal value that's available now but not in the future?
 
If I drop that requirement, I'll just use values, and trivially the identity function doesn't do anything interesting to a value.
@nightcracker yes, exactly.
However it 'goes unavailable' on its own. You don't dispose it or anything similar.
 
and what exactly do you want to do with this value?
describe it in some formal way?
code it?
 
Yes, I want to describe it and see if the pattern arises somewhere already.
 
in what language?
 
6:53 AM
language agnostic.
 
there is no such language
 
Just like a temporal enumerable is an observable, I want to know if a backwards promise is already something we use.
Take your pick
 
if you want a formal description of something you must choose a language which rules to abide by
otherwise "formal" has no meaning
 
Uh, I'm pretty sure you can describe programming language theory formally :)
 
also, "arises somewhere", "we already use", in what environment are you talking about?
 
6:55 AM
If you want to pick a language - let's do Haskell.
 
I'm not familiar with haskell sadly
 
neither
and that's not really formal
but a future of a value that will disappear is simply a future returning void as soon as it has disappeared
 
I wonder what's the async parallel of a weak reference
How do I even formalize a reference :/
 
there is no async parallel of a weak reference? they're unrelated concepts
 
7:01 AM
Wait, we have a whole NLP department here, maybe they'll know.
 
a weak reference is simply a way for one object to access another without prolonging the lifetime of the referenced object
the term is used in safe environments where it's impossible to reference to a dead object
 
I know what a weak reference is.
I should probably just ask Mark Miller, he'll know for sure.
 
then you should know that the introduction of asynchronousity (if that's a word) does not influence this definition at all
 
Yes, it kind of does.
 
a weak reference to an object that does not exist yet doesn't exist
a weak reference to an object that exists exists
a weak reference to an object that exists but died exists, but is in a dead state
 
7:06 AM
The problem is - there is no such thing as a weak value, maybe that's the dual I'm looking for - an asynchronous weak value.
 
if you want to refer to an object that doesn't exist yet then a weak reference is not the right term - it's a promise/future
@BenjaminGruenbaum are you talking about a value with a lifetime?
 
If promises were real proxies this would all work so much nicer.
@nightcracker yes, I'm talking about a value with a lifetime, but you don't control the lifetime.
 
because all values have a lifetime
 
Usually, you control it though.
A value can't 'go missing' in the middle of your code.
 
this highly depends on the language
C/C++ have a different data model than Python
 
7:08 AM
That's true, but kind of orthogonal.
 
no, it's crucial
in Python a value can and DOES go missing in the middle of your code, if the cyclic reference garbage collector kicks in in the middle
 
Yeah, but that implies you don't have a reference to it.
 
do you notice it? no, you don't have any references to it anymore
but the value does
in C where there are only values, it's impossible
 
Sure it's possible, some code (possibly not in your control and on another thread) can free a memory you have access to. It's just not very well defined.
(and for a good reason)
 
no value gets destroyed from the language perspective
C has no concept of memory, only pointers
pointers can not be destroyed in the middle of your code
 
7:11 AM
The problem I think I'm having is that the inverse of a promise doesn't make sense really. A promise is a nice mental model since time moves forwards as code executes. I think that if I'll have my answer - it'll have to come from theory.
 
user1804599
hi there
 
Just like that code that enters an infinite loop is a perfectly viable strategy when proving a reduction between languages, but no one would ever do that in an actual program.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I might have a resolution for you
@BenjaminGruenbaum A promise(state, cell) in a Turing machine is the invariant that there exists a state after this state where the given cell changes value.
 
The "mental" inverse of a promise is a promise. Just a promise for the value being unavailable again. I have no idea how variable inexistence is even defined mathematically without temporal logic, once it's defined it's defined.
@nightcracker I think you can get away with an NFA (that's what I tried)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum This shows you that whether a new useful value gets introduced, or an old useful value gets destroyed, it's still a promise.
@BenjaminGruenbaum Since a cell changes.
 
7:15 AM
A promise as a 3 cell NFA that starts with with a pending state and nondeterministically transitions to fulfilled/rejected where it stays. Then convert it to a DFA and reverse it.
 
I'm not too familiar yet with automata, as I'm taking the beginner class on it this year.
 
haha, iTunes asks me to restart my computer
fuck you iTunes
fuck you
 
There is only one difference between a promise and an "expirable" that might confuse you thanks to some programming languages/libraries. A promise can often fail, but this shouldn't be part of the promise concept from a theoretical perspective. Any failable Promise<T> can be transformed into a MorePurePromiseConcept<Failable<T>>, but the inverse is not true, so MorePurePromiseConcept is what should be used under the term "concept".
An "expirable" can not fail, as it's simply not done expiring yet. This is a simple deduction from the fact that all values expire, since all values have a lifetime.
 
user1804599
Perl y u no find module YAML::XS.
 
If the "expirable" itself expired before it was done, it didn't fail - just like destroying a promise before it got it's value doesn't mean the promise failed.
@BenjaminGruenbaum if that makes any sense
 
7:26 AM
@nightcracker failing is irrelevant really, even in promises, no argument there. Failure in promises is just unchecked exceptions where they weren't in the first place. A promise that only transitions from pending to done is also perfectly fine and in fact I use it since it composes better with monads when I use languages with ADTs.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum So I think we can safely conclude that the "expirable" concept is simply a synonym for an instantiation of a promise, and not a dual of a promise.
 
@nightcracker no, we really can't :)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum why not?
 
You can say it's isomorphic to a promise at best.
Because, it transitions from being able to access the value to not. You don't get a promise that resolves when the value is unavailable, you get a promise-like that resolves as long as the value is available and then hangs at pending when it becomes unavailable.
 
That's a better word for what I was trying to describe
isomorphic
@BenjaminGruenbaum eehm no?
@BenjaminGruenbaum an "expirable" hangs while the variable is alive and fullfills when it has died
 
user1804599
7:29 AM
Promises are isomorphic to lies.
 
or maybe
 
user1804599
No, not to Maybe.
 
now I see what you originally meant with an "expirable"
 
@nightcracker no.
 
> You get a promise-like that resolves as long as the value is available and then hangs at pending when it becomes unavailable.
 
7:30 AM
Yes.
 
that's a far better description than anything you've given so far, and changes the game a bit :P
and it doesn't change the actual result in a bit, but allows me to explain something better
 
myValue = Expirable(15)
myValue.then((val) => {
    write(val); // writes 15
})
//.. sometime later
myValue.then((val) => {
    // this won't log 15, since it expired, code won't run
})
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Have you considered that perhaps your fallacy is assuming any particular "hanging" behaviour?
 
No, I haven't?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum a promise is simply a state machine, whether you choose to hang on this state or not is irrelevant to the promise
@BenjaminGruenbaum it is not until you introduce this hanging behaviour that you'll see a difference between an "expirable" and a promise.
 
7:33 AM
I'm talking about the behavior of bind now (then in my example above),
@nightcracker that's true.
 
but I'd argue that this hanging behaviour is just a usability feature implemented by libraries and irrelevant to the concept of a promise
 
Composing is definitely a part of a promise.
 
using the argument of MorePurePromiseConcept before, it's possible to make a hanging implementation using a non-hanging Promise, but not the other way around
 
I'd argue that one of the most charactarizing aspects of a promise is the bind.
@nightcracker right, and this inability is the characterizing bit.
Maybe the synchronous analog is the process crashing.
From the moment the program crashed, no more code will run on the chain.
 
ok, assuming an always hanging promise and an "expirable" as you described that never hangs while in fulfilled state and then always hangs I think you can say they're duals
 
7:40 AM
So a Promise<Expirable<X>> is just X and never hangs unless the value was never available to begin with, but not Expirable<Promise<X>>.
Hmm. They have the property that if one is available at once point, so is the other.
 
holy fuck the left side of my throat is so sore
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum this shows the nature of the duality: gist.githubusercontent.com/orlp/a3275dd0c94ed788b4c2/raw/…
@BenjaminGruenbaum change any instance of value <=> nul and fulfilled <=> !fulfilled
 
and of course Promise<Expirable<X>> can hang
 
Only if the value is not available at the first instant.
 
7:49 AM
and also as soon X has expired
thank you scott
 
Oo, ebay has this 45 days time frame thing. I bought two cheap android recharge cables on ebay. The seller marked estimated delivery time to be in August when I bought the cables in June. I thought "well, maybe they wanted to find cheap delivery options". But the cables never arrived. When I contacted the seller & then ebay, I was told the seller marked the item as "lost in mail". Although it does not make sense because no "item dispatched" email was ever received.
I think the seller is exploiting this 45 days thing and never intended to delivered the items!
 
in fact, Expirable<Promise<X>> == Promise<Expirable<X>>
 
Prove it
 
I had the same kind of things happen on groupon, although I did get refund there ... the 'can only deliver close to expiry thing' ... ebay doesn't want to give refund
 
hang -> X becomes available -> X is result -> X becomes unavailable -> hang
 
7:52 AM
(As in, binding to a Expirable<Promise<X>> will always run if and only if a Promise<Expirable<X>> will)
 
wait no, this isn't true
and it's because of this stupid notation
 
I assumed that whoever is responsible for calling fulfill on the Promise will do so in a consistent manner with whoever calls fulfill on the Expirable
but in reality both could be hooked up to random timestamp generators
 
@ScottW nope, they offered no refund option
 
@Sofffia tells me to turn off my adblocker... in french
 
7:55 AM
@nightcracker yeah, exactly
 
@AlexM. Yeah, me too.
 
You can prove that there exists a time where binding to both will run the code, but that's just saying "there exists a time"
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum that's not true
@BenjaminGruenbaum the fulfill on the expire could be completed before the promise will ever be fulfilled
 
ebay did send me some empty promise like "from novermber this year we will give you money back guarantee"
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum you made the same mistake as I did :P
@BenjaminGruenbaum that the thing that calls fulfill does so in a consistent manner on both
 
7:58 AM
It's the same X, it fulfills/rejects at the same time.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum no, the problem is in the notation
Promise<X> is not enough, you need Promise<Resource, Fulfiller>
 
it's only a few dollars, seriously it is next to nothing. but I really hate when people think I could not detect their lies ... how stupid do you think people are?
 
and if Fulfiller is RandomTimestampGenerator, then no it's not guaranteed that there ever exists a time where the nested expirable/promise will not hang
 
Yeah, the notation isn't good enough, since we can't really discuss X before it's available/after it's available, X is a type and not a concrete variable.
 
anyway
I have to go
 
8:15 AM
Thanks for the chat! It's appreciated
 
user1804599
8:33 AM
 
user1804599
gg
 
is it normal to have to sudo make install?
 
user1804599
Yes.
 
@Puppy Are you on Windows? :)
 
user1804599
Unless you set the installation directory to something you have write access to, of course.
 
user1804599
8:39 AM
But the default is usually /usr or some subdirectory of that.
 
Hm...
Generic Autoconf/Automake packages have /usr/local prefix as the default, AFAIK.
 
@Puppy on unix/linux: yes it is normal ... so normal it is almost standard
 
@Puppy you don't need sudo if you install to your home directory and don't touch system stuff.
 
@Puppy yeah, because make install typically defaults to installing everything to system-wide dirs like /usr/bin and /etc. You can usually specify a different prefix for make install to avoid that
 
TIL about mbstowcs_s
 
user1804599
8:52 AM
Better wrap that shit in something sanely named.
 
why? that obviously means multibytestringtowidecharstring_safe...or something :p
 
I first read it as mbsaashlfkas
I still read it like that
ugh, didn't sleep one bit last night
can't even delete empty lines without having to check like 3 times that I didn't do something bad
 
@rightfold not bad. (I was aware of "maps" special keyword in g search)
 
@AlexM. you should sleep for at least 8 bits :p
 
@melak47 why abbrev character?
 
8:57 AM
@sehe because too many characters :p
 
@AlexM. I read that as foot_in_mouth_stuff, which is uncannily accurate
@AlexM. then, chop chop. Turn off ad blocker
 

« first day (1444 days earlier)      last day (3506 days later) »