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8:00 PM
@Ell Oh sure, it's just that the people who make successful kernels are lazy and incompetent, and like ugly designs. ;)
 
@Griwes that basically means that they are near impossible to implement, the fact of the matter is while you can push a lot of things to userspace, you can't push it all it just doesn't make sense.
 
@jalf If your kernel space relies on the user space, you have proven they are damn hard to get right, because you didn't.
 
Ell
@jalf Haha I don't believe that monolithic kernels are terrible either, I think monolithic just got ahead :P
But we still have bits and bobs of microkernel here and there
like FUSE
 
Monolithic kernels are terrible.
 
Ell
and iirc microkernels are used a lot in aerospace (but I might have just made that up)
 
8:01 PM
or NT?
 
Isn't NT some hybrid?
 
most kernel designs are nowadays IIRC
 
I hate the term "hybrid kernel".
 
@rubenvb wasn't then was, then wasn't again
 
It basically says "we couldn't implement either correctly, so we mixed the cons of both together!".
 
8:02 PM
And FUSE is just a way to get maybe-patented bits into filesystem world.
 
Ell
But to me it just seems ridiculous that a driver can still crash the kernel
 
1.0 -> 2k micro, XP -> 2003 hybrid, vista -> micro
 
Ell
@rubenvb But it's in user space still :P
 
@Ell isn't it really just a wrapper of an abstract kernel interface?
 
Ell
Don't think so
it's a way to implement filesystems in user space
 
8:05 PM
I also never understood the hard requirement to split kernel and userspace.
But that's just me being ignorant, probably.
 
Ell
I don't entirely, but I think it's cpu rings thing
like hardware protection from accessing memory a programme isn't allowed to
 
@rubenvb it's a CPU thing really, it's how you do virtual memory, and protected instructions
 
Ell
idk to be honest
 
Oh, so the kernel is master of CPU memory and can meddle with everything, but normal programs aren't allowed to?
On a hardware level?
 
@rubenvb yes
it's a security thing
 
8:06 PM
OK, cool.
 
@rubenvb bingo
 
Ell
Hi mooing duck!
 
only the kernel code can access everything
 
So that's why rootkits are such a pain?
 
8:07 PM
@Griwes Yes, absolutely. The kernels that are successful in the real world are ones which have all the cons of the different designs, and none of the advantages. That sounds perfectly plausible. ;)
 
user1804599
Run a VM in kernel space and you don’t need this crap anymore.
 
also ugh, chat is crapping out on me. I'm out
@Ell Monolithic kernels are terrible. The only sane design is somewhere in between
 
@Ell "Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 (and their predecessors) use only two rings, with ring 0 corresponding to kernel mode and ring 3 to user mode."
@rubenvb also, kernel mode has less convenience, like virtual memory being automatic, and such. Kernel mode code has to manually page memory in and out
 
@jalf You mean like Windows?
 
Ell
@jalf I'm not sure - I don't see the advantages of an in between design besides performance?
 
8:10 PM
@Ell uh, well that would make the advantage clear, no?
 
Performance is lower in non-monolithic designs because of more data passing
But non-monolithic designs are simpler
 
Ell
Well there we go, no reason to use a monolithic kernel at all :P
oh wait. I misread
 
@Ell in the case of XP, compatibility with 9x drivers
which is part of what they got rid of in vista
 
(not that performance thing matters much, only the most naive implementations have problem with that)
 
Ell
Yeah compatibility is the biggest problem
but that's not really a design issue I don't think
more of a historical issue
let's assume we can start from scratch :P
 
8:12 PM
@Ell no string parsing opcodes
 
of course, but remember that Dave Cutler's NT was a microkernel with a proper HAL
that got fucked over with XP
 
Use Hurd if you want proper ~~~microkernel~~~
Of course nobody does, that's why Hurd is still unusable
 
@CatPlusPlus lol
 
Hur-hur-hurd
 
A hurd of dinosaurs
 
8:14 PM
It's more like drug-o-kernel than microkernel.
Or weed-o-kernel.
 
Must be made in Colorado.
 
I wonder if Hurd would have caught on it if it was released 20 years ago.
 
@rubenvb I resemble that remark... although I don't smoke myself
 
@Mgetz "resemble"? I think that's non-native English peeping through ;-) What di you mean to say?
 
8:16 PM
Resent
 
must be a US colloquialism
 
You gotta learn how to translate American to English
 
Ell
yay I got cutlery!
 
@Mgetz Thought so. Couldn't be sure, so asked :-) But that is just wrong though.
 
8:17 PM
@CatPlusPlus Hurd isn't itself a microkernel--it's built around the Mach microkernel.
 
Yeah yeah w/e details
 
@rubenvb It's a not-uncommon joke here.
 
ah
blame me for not hanging with you shmucks
anyways. I'm out. Learned stuff... again. For which my gratitude.
 
Ell
I don't recall ever seeing that joke o.O
@rubenvb bye :)
I do enjoy having civilized discussions
 
It's not a very good joke
 
Ell
8:19 PM
it makes my day
 
Sleep time
 
Ell
eat time
 
user1804599
12
Q: Why isn't there "OP is a moron" as a close reason?

iweinWhen handling close votes I find myself spending more time mapping the question to a proper close reason than the OP spent energy writing the question. I'd like for there to be an option "no comment" or even "OP is a moron". Case in point (for users under 10K). See also the very illustrative com...

 
8:23 PM
lol
 
@Rapptz okay
 
"But which button is right and which is wrong?" — Boann 9 hours ago
 
@Rapptz welp actually it's "Shit happens only if there is a 16Mb block, and I don't know any software which supports 16Mb blocks". doesn't look like a solid argument to me.
 
@Abyx There's a difference between "I don't know any software" and "Documented support ends at 8MB".
 
also "it only affects 32-bit software, so all servers are safe". WTF? my router is 32-bit, and it looks right into the internets
 
8:33 PM
your router is not a server.
 
stupid bitbucket emails
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Oh btw, do jobseekers get weekends off?
 
user1804599
Hmm.
 
user1804599
Say you’re writing a game where there’s a player character and an enemy, and the enemy would shoot at the player.
 
user1804599
How would the enemy know where the player is when it wants to shoot?
 
user1804599
8:38 PM
Do you pass the player’s position to the step method of the enemy?
 
user1804599
I think coroutines would be nice for this kind of stuff.
 
@Puppy Yes
@Puppy No
 
@rightfold Usually I think the AI would first look if theres a target within his reach (by inspecting whats in a certain radius of it) if there are multiple targets it would prioritize, if theres only one then it could take action (such as shooting the target)
 
@rightfold :lol:
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Maybe?
Schrodinger's weekend off?
 
8:40 PM
I really should know more about the Japanese language, I think that there is something very wrong with it. http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD05xx/EWD585.html
 
user1804599
@Borgleader Yes, but how would the AI know the position of the player?
 
@rightfold the enemy has a LoS (line of sight) if the player walks into it - the AI starts aiming towards the player and shooting. If the AI hears the player they also start looking for it.
 
why are line numbers hidden in most editors, by default?
 
user1804599
Do you pass a pointer to it to its constructor? Do you pass it when you run the AI?
 
Ell
no clue
 
user1804599
8:42 PM
Like.
 
eclipse doesn't show line numbers by default, VS doesn't show them either
monodevelop doesn't show them either
 
Ell
@rightfold are you talking about separation of concerns?
 
user1804599
Enemy enemy(&player.position); … enemy.step(); vs Enemy enemy; … enemy.step(player.position); or something else.
 
same for editors like vim and gedit and so on
 
user1804599
@Ell Yes, and encapsulation.
 
8:42 PM
@rightfold it's common to include some smarter AI too, one easy approach is to use a goal oriented system like STRIPS that composes simple actions to create clever AI. I think FEAR did that.
 
user1804599
Enemy doesn’t have to know everything about everyone.
 
Ell
I always have this issue >.<
 
user1804599
@BenjaminGruenbaum I’m not concerned about the AI’s internals, but about its API.
 
Ell
Yeah
 
8:43 PM
@AlexM. they're not?
@AlexM. those are sub-par
use Notepad++
 
but notepad++ is ugleh
 
The API depends on how smart you need the AI to be, and it's also affected by speed considerations. For example - you can have the AI deduce the player and where to shoot by only giving it access to sensors. If you give it eyes so it can sense the environment visually it can shoot based on that.
 
user1804599
I think I will pass the positions of possible targets to the step method of the enemy.
 
@rightfold That sort of depends on how you made your engine. You could tag the player's "entity" such that by looping through nearby entities you can find it. There are many ways to do it
 
Why should the enemy be aware of the whole list of targets? Can't you just have it own a visual sensor it can query for interesting things in the LoS?
 
user1804599
8:46 PM
So template<typename PossibleTargetIt> void step(double dt, PossibleTargetIt possibleTargetsBegin, PossibleTargetIt possibleTargetsEnd).
 
is there an easy way to explain what a template is?
 
@JohanLarsson cookie cutter?
 
user1804599
Then it’s just std::min_element and a smaller-than check.
 
@JohanLarsson bad explaination: type safe macros
 
user1804599
Or something like that. Dunno.
 
8:49 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum @Mgetz ok ty ty, I'm not gonna use one anytime soon.
 
Ell
compile time code generators
idk :P
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum excellent
@AlexM. funny, all three do for me :) And otherwise, all three respond to :se nu
 
Good eve
 
Good adam
 
does it matter if i put the break in a switch case statement inside the brackets or afterwards?
tbrack = break ...
 
8:52 PM
I thought you were trying to lead me to the answer vaguely lol. If you have any suggestions or ideas I'd love to hear them - still fighting this one. — Steve 6 mins ago
 
Ell
pardon?
 
@Serthy up arrow to edit,
Jun 25 at 9:34, by thecoshman
Welcome to world of lazy! Here is your tour guide; please read it, front and back
@Serthy and "no".
 
thank you and "thank you" ;)
 
Ell
I'll beeee goooooone
in a day or twoooooooOOOOO
 
@Chase sure. It's open source! And the link is right in the first sentence of my answer :) — sehe 8 secs ago
Some people really need help to do anything at all
 
8:59 PM
97
A: What to consider when deciding on 2D vs 3D for a game?

munificent3D is an order of magnitude harder than 2D: Programming: The math is significantly more complex for rendering, physics, collision, etc. Hope you like matrices and vectors! Because of the previous point, good performance is much more difficult to attain. With today's hardware, you can make a ni...

 
@Ell whither will you beee going?
 
Ell
@sehe Home :) but also just singing
Take on Me by a-ha
I love that song
I always try to hit the high note but it's impossible for me :P
 
It's not impossible to try
 
baaaaaalllllllsss
 
Something is interesting about the number 1006 by the way. Prolly the half-prime thing
 
9:00 PM
I hate you, enable_shared_from_this.
 
@Puppy you just used it wrong :)
 
Ell
is that in c++11? I forgot if it's just boost or not
 
yeah it was introduced in C++!1.
 
@Ell boost has enable_shared_from_raw as well, which allows you to trylu shoot yourself in the foot without seeing it coming
 
@sehe Maybe I'll use the substantially hackier new shared_ptr with custom no-op deleter route.
 
9:04 PM
that means you should use a raw pointer, right
 
or better, just re-implement this function to not require this solution.
 
for how long do you guys code in c++?
 
You shouldn't be passing shared_ptr if you /sometimes/ don't want to share ownership
@Serthy 16 years, on and off
 
@sehe Yeah, but then I can't re-use the code for another function with pretty much the same logic but requires a shared_ptr.
 
Ell
@Serthy I'm not sure. 4 years maybe?
 
9:04 PM
@Puppy can you spell overloads or templates?
 
Ell
when did I join the lounge hmm
 
@sehe They're not that similar. It's actually a terrible thing to do and I'm just gonna change it.
 
@Ell ahh good to know, thanks
seems like its possible to catch up 'soon' but not to @sehe :-D
 
Ell
Actually
it would be 3 years
or maybe 4
hmm
 
rather 6
 
Ell
9:07 PM
I only really learned c++11 but I started on the transition time
because I used to use auto_ptr
 
for c++11 auto just feels so c# and wrong
 
... Because, productivity and convenience are wrong
 
is it trollday today?
 
@Ell Boost Intrusive still uses them (if you take the most natural approach)
 
user1804599
@Ell @BenjaminGruenbaum @Borgleader something like this.
 
9:11 PM
Whoa. Plink quota reached. You've been notified.
 
didn't ment to say its wrong
 
@rightfold can I be super annoying for a bit?
 
user1804599
Only for a bit!
 
You're going to have to deal with perf eventually, .forEach is stupidly slow compared to a for loop
 
user1804599
I don’t give a shit.
 
Ell
9:13 PM
lol
 
user1804599
For a real game I’d not use JS anyway.
 
nothing like mysterious bugs to motivate you to fix your ownership semantics.
 
user1804599
GC owns everything problem solved.
 
so no perf tips?
 
could do if I wanted to but decided not to.
 
user1804599
9:14 PM
API first, performance last.
 
Because, some stuff you do there is like, annoyingly slow and has nothing to do with the API :P
Ok, lemme look at the API
 
performance only when performance is a problem.
 
I do performance when I'm bored :)
 
No, optimization when performance is a problem, sane performance from day one or you get equally slow code.
Optimize is one thing, use sane defaults is another.
 
user1804599
Basically enemy returns zero or more new bullets on update, and takes a list of targets it may shoot at (list of enemy’s enemies).
 
user1804599
9:17 PM
Unless it has already shot between now and 2000 ticks ago, then it always returns the empty list.
 
The API looks ok, but it really depends on how the game looks. There isn't one good architecture for this sort of game.
Well, night everyone
 
user1804599
Goodbye!
 
user image
2
wat
 
lol
 
lol.
 
user1804599
9:20 PM
@AlexM. I think this (possibly NSFW dunno) is more practical.
 
user1804599
But lol at “5+ years.”
 
Ell
lol "sin zones"
 
user1804599
Tarvos is such a nice song.
 
I cant stop laughing
 
9:32 PM
@AlexM. I was disappointed that the site actually doesn't exist.
 
it does
> Service Unavailable
but it did work ~30 mins ago
 
balls.
references to destructors occur semantically, but the actual calls occur at codegen time.
 
@Puppy blue balls if you get that cross thing
 
not sure if I've pimped this already...
 
hm
I hate it when you try to fix one thing that's slightly broken, then you have to fix another thing that's slightly broken to accomodate that fix, then you have to fix another thing, etc etc.
 
9:38 PM
pen and paper is good for that ime
 
or write quick failng tests for fixing later
 
yeah
@JohanLarsson It's not a failed test, it's a conceptual fail, as in it could never possibly compile.
 
@Puppy do you have a symbol table?
 
yep
 
9:45 PM
@Puppy const correctness, noexcept correctness?
 
@sehe Nah.
fixing virtual destructors -> fixing correctness of expression ownership -> fixing correctness w.r.t destructors -> fixing destructors.
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow HALLO
 
@Puppy design debt
 
arguably
 
user1804599
Don’t argue.
 
9:47 PM
then again, it's my general experience that nobody on the Internet, ever, discusses the design of semantic analyzers.
they're both hard and language-specific.
so it's not like there's a ready source to learn from
 
user1804599
@Puppy that’s what she said.
 
@rightfold Did you watch the game tonight?
 
user1804599
Only the first half.
 
user1804599
So I missed all the goals.
 
user1804599
But Oranje won so it’s good.
 
user1804599
9:56 PM
I want Netherlands vs Germany final.
 
The problem with Arsenal is that they always try to walk it in.
@rightfold It's gonna be NL/BZ
with a narrow BZ victory on penalties after extra time
 
Anyone here use Bitdefender?
 
Ask your real question, to avoid pissing people off.
 
Ell
@Borgleader used to :3
 
@Ell Was it any good?
 
Ell
10:01 PM
I don't think any virus scanners are good :L
So no :P
 
i see, was it annoying? (slow boot times, pop ups and such)
 
This is why I like C++: All of paste.ubuntu.com/7723537 compiling down to
    main:                     ; test.cpp:13
        movl    k(%rip), %eax ; boost/boost/proto/expr.hpp:65
        movl    $99, k(%rip)  ; test.cpp:16
        ret
@Borgleader Objection: leading the witness
 
user1804599
> One-way mirrors (also called two-way mirrors)
 
user1804599
lolwot
 
@rightfold They're two way, just with different levels of permeability to electromagnetic waves within the spectrum of visible light depending on the direction in which the waves travel. Dug
 
Ell
10:07 PM
@Borgleader yes
@Borgleader they all are though
 
user1804599
@sehe METAMATERIALS
 
@Borgleader how'd you stumble into that?
 
@sehe I didn't stumble. I remembered someone posting it, so I googled the message.
 
Ah. I envisioned it would be damn near impossible to find using SE chat search :)
 
user1804599
The only problem I have with chat search is that it’s immensely slow.
 
user1804599
10:12 PM
Other than that it works fine for me.
 
user1804599
Although I must say that I almost always remember the exact phrase I’m looking for.
 
@aeismail The Netherlands. I copied it from other students homework. — user17965 2 days ago
 
@rightfold It's almost impossible to find the C+lol pic.
 
@rightfold Iemand moet het land uitgezet worden, dunkt me^
@FredOverflow This one?
 
Ell
xD
 
10:16 PM
That was on the first row (#6) of google image results for C+lol pic - verbatim
@rightfold I hate that it always insists on sorting by 'relevance' again after you filter for (another) user. That's braindead. I end up editing the query string instead
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
@sehe ???
 
Ah. That one
 
user1804599
Diederik Samsom ja.
 
user1804599
@sehe that’s bad indeed.
 
10:18 PM
Shht. Don't blow his cover
 
@sehe C has class, it's called Java.
 
@rightfold I find it ironic that, right after the UI forces me to do dumb queries I don't want to submit, it throttles my searches... ("You can try again in n seconds")
 
user1804599
 
@FredOverflow I fully don't see how you were intending to make this joke work
 
user1804599
Ask on Meta Stack Overflow why they ignore the tag. :P
 
10:20 PM
@rightfold Chat features -> Won't fix
 
@rightfold nope. I'm lazy
 
user1804599
I want a Straight Pride.
 
How queer
 
user1804599
And a Pedo Pride.
 
That must already exist. I think it was called the mini playbackshow
 
user1804599
10:23 PM
user image
3
 
user1804599
lolgoogle
 
user1804599
@sehe SGP
 
@rightfold lol
 
user1804599
Time to drink some water with ice cubes.
 
remindersModule.replaceReminders(cloud.getReminders());
best cloud sync, ever
 
user1804599
10:27 PM
eww
 
user1804599
mutability
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow I have read that book. It is very nice.
 
user1804599
@sehe supertoll
 
10:28 PM
@AlexM. that's not sync though.
 
user1804599
Also I wouldn’t call it “cloud.”
 
user1804599
Rather “externalStore” or something like that.
 
user1804599
Apple calls it a “ubiquitous store” but that’s way too difficult to type.
 
way too difficult to auto-complete
 
yeah good point, but I called it a cloud because it's the whole point of the thing
like multiple programs on multiple devices working together and syncing with a single remote server
 
10:31 PM
@FredOverflow lol not the same author
 
@YePhIcK he didn't mention it to me. Also, you can be sure that std::vector uses c-style arrays :) — sehe 11 secs ago
 
normally a remote server should be the only thing to provide data but I did implement a dummy data provider
yeah the naming seems weird if I think about that
maybe... SyncTarget or SyncServer
ExternalStore gets me thinking about an USB drive lol
a friend refused to give me the courses I've missed despite the fact that he now has no other uses for them, also despite the fact that he said he'd give them to me :\
"I don't have them anymore"
like, wtf.
anyway, dunno why I asked him, it always happens like this
on the other hand, a colleague was eager to take photos of them for me, so I don't have to move my ass over to photocopy the courses and waste money
this is the Nth time she was eager to just help people
 
hilarious
 
this kind of difference seems fascinating to me
 
@YePhIcK he didn't mention it to me. Also, you can be sure that std::vector uses c-style arrays :) — sehe 9 mins ago
OP mentioned that in a comment (above). But yeah, I do know that std::vector uses c-style arrays internally. :) — YePhIcK 8 mins ago
 
10:40 PM
I think I'm somewhere in the middle
 
@YePhIcK: That's complete nonsense. std::vector uses an allocator and separates memory allocation from object construction. And the OP's code doesn't even have a "C-style array", since C has no dynamic array objects. — Kerrek SB 4 mins ago
 
reluctant to help unless I get something in return
the friend likes to get things but not give things
the colleague likes to give things and doesn't ask for anything in return
maybe I'm the worst
at least with someone like my friend you know what they're up to and how unreliable they are
with me you may feel like you've got a loan shark on your back
 
fuck.
which also means fixing my virtual thunk code.
 
well, on the bright side, I'm covered for this exam session :D so it's all good
 
fuckshitballs.
 
10:47 PM
I'm starting to think connections are more valuable than money
 
Xeo
@sehe :(
 
I just hate Java's lack of events
listener.aiSaidSomething("You answered yes!");
seriously instead of thinking of it like "Yo world, I said something."
it's as if the emitter itself is sticking its hand in the listener's internals and forces it to react to what it did
 
user1804599
I want to go outside but effort and loneliness.
 
did you add that last part for me ;)
 
user1804599
<3
 
10:58 PM
you want to go outside... at 1am?
 
user1804599
The weather is great and I like walking at night.
 
user1804599
It’s refreshing.
 
I am okay with walking around at night if it's <= 00:00
that's when gypsies go to clubs
 
user1804599
It cannot be earlier than 00:00.
 
you don't want to be encountered by a gang of drunk gypsies
 

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