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user1804599
2:00 PM
% cat configure.py | grep dracula
    'dracula_algorithms.js',
    'dracula_graffle.js',
    'dracula_graph.js',
 
ugh no it's just not defined
damn it
this library is powerful and I will probably need all that it offers
writing it all myself would take shitload of unnecessary time
 
user1804599
 
requires that YUI thing
 
user1804599
Maybe it works at least. :v
 
@rightfold ok I forgot a >
 
user1804599
2:03 PM
lol
 
user1804599
Use syntax highlighting nub.
 
hm it appears to work
much easier than doing that by hand, too
I wonder if it will flex the anchors for me
 
Many thanks Lightness Races in Orbit. (Re casting to void, I prefer my code to be lint-free so any statement that returns something that I don't then require, I cast to void; it's just a personal habbit :-) ). — Ben J 19 mins ago
ugh
 
wooo it works
@rightfold you need jQUI to really get that to work
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit funny the choice of poem: projectnaptha.com
 
2:09 PM
I desperately want to appreciate the convenience provided by the auto keyword as of C++ 11, but my experiences with it so far have caused me to despise its over usage. Too much ambiguity when used excessively.
 
@ScarletAmaranth :)
I thought that
 
@Evan what
 
@Evan did you read Herb's article about auto?
 
I have not
 
seriously specifying types by hand is like the most tedious and shitty thing one might do
 
2:10 PM
auto is a winner
I auto every variable in my codebase
4
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz OIC.
 
auto is certainly convenient
 
it's not about convenience
 
basically auto is a form of encapsulation
 
it's about generic code
 
2:10 PM
But I absolutely HATE going through code someone else wrote with liberal usage of auto
 
eh
not using auto doesn't really help.
you still have to figure out what's going on.
 
@Evan naming!
 
@Evan You are 100% correct, and more.
 
and any non-trivial environment will still tell you the type anyway.
 
@Evan ask the IDE for the type
 
2:11 PM
How do you do your code reviews?
 
not that C++ can do that reasonably, but still
 
of course anything can be abused
 
user1804599
You do not use an IDE every time you read code.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Writing requirements documents is tedious and shitty, too. Doesn't make it a bad idea.
 
use var in C# and auto in C++ everywhere
 
2:12 PM
but if you have to know what the concrete type is all the time - you might have other problems
 
@BartekBanachewicz IOW, what IDE do you have that can view diffs and tell you the types?
 
@rightfold you hardly ever use an IDE, for that matter
 
@Alastair like having a brain, or being able to speak English
 
user1804599
@sehe I use Emacs al... oh wait IDE not OS.
 
being fully aware of concrete types is GOOD
 
2:12 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit because what?
 
@BartekBanachewicz because bananas duh
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't write in C++.
static typing without type inference is annoying as fuck
 
user1804599
Omg.
 
and that's a goddamn fact
 
2:13 PM
exhibit a: java
 
you're just lazy
 
user1804599
web-mode understands lambdas and PHP 5.4 array syntax.
 
user1804599
:drool:
 
@BartekBanachewicz Well, then you can still try answering my question anyway.
 
2:13 PM
you heard me poncho
 
Explicit readability and understanding outweighs convenience by far
 
otherwise all our variables would be single letter
 
Anyway herb says it better than I could: herbsutter.com/2013/08/12/…
 
auto i; // whoops
 
2:14 PM
@Evan if you need explicit types to understand the expression then your naming is wrong
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit car i; // amazing
 
@BartekBanachewicz Compilers don't type-check names, dumbass. The name is fucking meaningless.
 
Well in a world where people use good naming conventions perhaps
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit they do check auto though
 
Lightness' example isn't far from reality
 
2:14 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Not at the point where you really, really want it checked, no, they don't.
 
user1804599
Never write bad code.
 
you can't write auto i; ffs
 
user1804599
You could in C! :D
 
@BartekBanachewicz oh, really? god, I didn't know that. wow.
 
@Evan It's not auto's problem though. Don't accommodate those developers; fix them.
2
 
2:15 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit if your code with auto compiles but gives bad behaviour then you're doing it wrong
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sorry, no, it's an objective problem with the language and not a problem with inferior developers.
 
no, it's your problem
 
I agree. That's why I want to like auto. It isn't the keyword itself that is the problem, it's improper usage.
 
@BartekBanachewicz you're*
 
"We don't live in a perfect world" is not an excuse to not do things that lead us there.
 
2:16 PM
@Evan god damn it another one
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol @ "objective"
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Because car i; is a lot better?
 
"the tool is okay but people misuse it"
 
@BartekBanachewicz So the thing you like is good because it makes your life easier, but the thing I like is bad because it would make my life easier and it should be my responsibility instead?
 
for god's sake
 
2:16 PM
Interesting.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes.
 
Arguing against auto ... "reflects a bias to code against implementations, not interfaces. Overcommitting to explicit types makes code less generic and more interdependent, and therefore more brittle and limited. It runs counter to the excellent reasons to “write code against interfaces, not implementations”"
 
if you can't see it then I can't explain it to you
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You said it was objective. I'm disappointed.
 
2:17 PM
@Evan just use it and educate others.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes "it's objective" is not the same as "I have four hours free to teach you the basics of decent pattern recognition in the human consciousness"
besides, it's particularly strange because you've agreed with me on this in the past
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit the thing you like is limiting the code genericity.
 
@BartekBanachewicz No, nice strawman as always, but you're making shit up again. In fact I prefer typedefs to auto.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit On what? I have a feeling you failed to expose it this time, then.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit typedef decltype(expression()) ExpressionResult; ExpressionResult expressionResult = expression();
 
2:18 PM
I like genericity a lot. I just don't like being totally blinded.
 
auto i; doesn't show a lot.
 
this is one of those "can of worms" discussions I see
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I did and that's fine because I didn't even try. I'm not going to get into it again now.
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz no duplicate code ever.
 
2:18 PM
I might as well have mentioned the "one true bracket style"
 
@Evan hey, btw, do you prefer tabs or spaces?
 
user1804599
BIN IT
 
@BartekBanachewicz No.
 
@Evan it's just @LightnessRacesinOrbit being stuck in his box.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit but it's a typedef.
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit The Robot's point is, I believe, that the name i sucks in either case.
 
2:19 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Good job. Intelligent analysis.
 
@Evan The difference is that all the good programmers in the room agree on auto, which is "Use whenever possible".
5
 
^
wow I agreed with Puppy
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I prefer consistency. Spaces are more consistent, but I have to work with so many different code bases I just go with whatever is there
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit FWIW, I remember that. I was trying to help your discussion by getting your point out in the open.
 
@Xeo I believe you are correct. And all I said was that at least the declaration is more understandable with the type-specifier car than with the type-specifier auto. But if he can't see that then he's having a stupid day, and I refuse to spend the rest of my afternoon getting into it...
@Evan Space indentation is, by definition, less consistent by quite a long way.
 
2:21 PM
@DeadMG The difference is that bracket style is quite meaningless, but specifying types or not can have semantic effects.
 
well there are obviously many differences that I could have pointed out.
 
Actually, in this instance, you are being a bigot!
 
for example I could also have said "One involves the token auto and one involves the bracket tokens", but that wouldn't have had the same relevance.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Hmm, perhaps I am thinking about it the wrong way then. And making assumptions about fixed width fonts.
 
2:22 PM
auto bin = std::move(everything);
@Evan What the...? what do fonts have to do with it?! Seems more like you're making assumptions about how many spaces people use to represent a single level of indentation. With tabs there is one, always. One. You can then render that, consistently, however you damn well please. With spaces you just have to hope that people aren't going mental (and good luck with that) and live with whatever they've done. 3? 4? 5? 8? It's totally retarded.
 
Here we go again.
Two flame wars at the same time? :D
 
Ah, I understand what you are saying. Yes that is an assumption I was making as well
 
basically all good developers use auto and spaces
6
 
@Griwes I like how the only message you've posted the entire afternoon so far is to jump into flame wars, saying "here we go again".
 
sounds about right
 
2:24 PM
@Evan, could you avoid taking the obvious flame baits?
 
@BartekBanachewicz All self-described good developers in this room use maximum auto and space indentation which, frankly, speaks a lot about you. :)
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit How is that relevant?
 
@Griwes Relevant to what?
 
I've seen both of these two flame wars many times here already.
 
@Griwes It's not a flame war. It's a programming discussion. If you don't want to partake, you can simply fuck off.
But if your only contribution is going to be to flame people involved, that's not cool
 
2:26 PM
Please don't just blindly use auto whenever possible. Think about it.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's pretty obvious it is a flame war, with common "I don't have time for this argument since you wouldn't understand it" and similar fallacies. vOv
 
Sorry, there is at least talk about programming in this chat room. Coming from GameDev, it's nothing but off-topic conversation all day long.
8
 
@Griwes Nobody said that.
@Evan pahaha
 
ROFL
 
user3010322
Nice.
 
2:27 PM
this room is hardly ever on-topic
 
Oh, well then
 
Starred for irony, I guess.
 
That is unfortunate
 
@DeadMG bins all the messages whenever it threatens to get on-topic. And I'm not even kidding, really.
 
we think it's quite fortunate
 
2:27 PM
"we" there you go again
 
@BartekBanachewicz I forgot what I wanted to reply here.
 
Starred for future reference for mods that don't believe this room can be in-topic.
 
only your opinion counts/matters
 
user3010322
I shudder to imagine what other rooms are like if we're apparently good.
 
@ThePhD Nobody's said we're "good".
 
2:28 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Evan did!
 
user3010322
good-by-proxy
 
user3010322
Or maybe, it was being called not-shit?
 
user3010322
I dunno.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes When?
 
It's on the starboard!
 
2:29 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't see it.
 
@rightfold yeah requires a bit of tinkering, but seems cool enuff. Gets half of the shit done for me.
 
user1804599
Nice.
 
wtf? don't use auto by default
use auto&&
 
user3010322
#define var auto
 
user3010322
2:31 PM
u.u
 
user3010322
Listen
 
user3010322
It's not that important
 
user1804599
#define var boost::any
 
user3010322
;~;
 
If being lowercase is one of the motivating reasons to make the macro, it's wrong.
 
user3010322
2:32 PM
Aww, fuck
 
user3010322
If I'm gonna automate the class part I need a demangler
 
typedef auto var;
 
user3010322
I wonder if that'd compile.
 
oh yeah
did I mention you could automate reflection at run-time if you're gonna stick with Itanium ABI?
 
user3010322
Never.
 
user3010322
2:34 PM
Do share.
 
@ThePhD Btw, that means not-MSVC.
 
user3010322
I figured.
 
user1804599
using var = dynamic;
 
user3010322
But I'm preparing to move to MinGW, and then to Clang when their compiler is Ready.
 
1. Enumerate symbol table of own executable. 2. Demangle names of exported functions. 3. List the ones where the class is your class. 4. Create code to call exported function loaded with OS function. 5. profit.
 
2:35 PM
@ThePHD vs2012 wont compile it
 
user3010322
Not using VS 2012
 
user3010322
I'm using VS 2013 CTP
 
user3010322
Because I ain't goin' back.
 
I go where I'm needed
:D
 
user3010322
I'm not needed anywhere.
 
2:36 PM
As if VS 2013 CTP was any good.
 
user3010322
It's not any good, but it's the best VS has.
 
Not too sure about that either.
 
user1804599
Use PHP.
 
@ThePhD which is not very good
 
It's just a different set of bugs from the RTM.
 
user3010322
2:37 PM
Best C++ VS has*
 
user3010322
I'll be going to QtCreator soon
 
user1804599
Verenigde Staten
 
user3010322
And probably developing inside of a VM, after that.
 
user3010322
Since I need to replax PIX and VS's graphics debugger
 
user3010322
with another tool
 
2:38 PM
I want this to work
 
crytek just came out with a good directx debugger
 
Xeo
I wonder if MSVC will ever manage to correctly compile my lambda-streams stuff
 
It looks like an interesting prototype
 
intel also has a pretty decent graphics profiler/debugger
 
Someone's porting NodaTime to JS.
JS, the language of the World Wide Web, still cannot handle dates decently.
 
user1804599
2:42 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes They should call it Joda Time. :)
 
user3010322
There's already a Joda Time, isn't there?
 
user3010322
From Java?
 
user1804599
No shit.
 
user3010322
I mean, that could call this Soda Time
 
user3010322
Oh, man.
 
user1804599
2:43 PM
Unitime.
 
user3010322
This just got a million times harder.
 
user1804599
@ThePhD That's what she said.
 
It's easier with CAPS.
:P
 
user3010322
I'm doing the inner, grimey details.
 
user1804599
 
Xeo
2:44 PM
Hm, damn, span is going to be expensive, since I can't share the stream.
 
user1804599
What does span do?
 
What list?
@rightfold span p = takeWhile p &&& dropWhile p
 
user1804599
Oh, similar to partition but with while instead of filter.
 
user1804599
Or whatever Haskell calls partition.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes The input. If I do std::make_tuple(takeWhile(p)(xs), dropWhile(p)(xs)), the input is copied.
 
2:47 PM
The input is a list, not a stream?
 
Xeo
I corrected myself
 
user1804599
@Xeo Then don't do that. :v
 
What's wrong with copying the streams?
 
a stream object shouldn't be heavyweight
 
As long they don't cross.
 
Xeo
2:48 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes expensive!
 
but neither should you copy it, since it could be move-only.
 
Xeo
I think
... maybe not
 
at least, in the model of Wide input range.
 
@DeadMG Can't implement span for input ranges.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG I'm soooo not worrying about move-only at the moment. I copy everything
 
2:48 PM
Spilled my coffee again.
 
user1804599
Good.
 
user1804599
Coffee is horrible.
 
My keyboards seem to attract coffee.
 
Xeo
@EtiennedeMartel As long as it doesn't attract CoffeeScript
 
user3010322
Caffeinational Field
 
2:49 PM
@EtiennedeMartel My clumsiness is rubbing off on you.
 
Probably.
 
user1804599
@Xeo CoffeeScript woo!
 
Thing is: I should really bring a real coffee cup to work.
 
user1804599
LiveScript :drool:
 
user3010322
Yeah, having a cup might help contain the coffee.
 
2:50 PM
I have to admit I used to be a lot worse, but now I make a lot of subconscious decisions that minimise the chances of clumsiness-powered disasters.
Still not perfect, but a decent improvement.
 
I've been using these crappy paper cups, and they're so easy to flip.
 
user3010322
static_for, where are you? :(
 
user3010322
constexpr_for, maybe?
 
could cover your desk in velcro, as well as the bottom of the cup
lot harder to tip that over
 
@ThePhD use recursion
 
user3010322
2:52 PM
I don't want to use recursion. That's lame.
 
velcro doesnt do any good if you just fail at the drinking motion though
 
@ThePhD Then don't?
Just use variadics.
 
@ThePhD nah that's cool. 'cuz FP is cool. or so they say
 
How about just get a travel mug. you can close those up so less spillage.
 
Honestly, to hell with static_for. Just give me variadic expansion of packed packs.
 
user3010322
2:53 PM
Picking out 2 items at a time to pass to a function requires some kind of recursion, whether I need to functionally recurse until I reach 2 items and then process the variadic list or whether I use some weird fancy double-indices crap.
 
Lots simpler, lots more powerful.
operator... or whatnot.
@ThePhD Er, no?
 
@Ak_Crusader Good idea.
 
Calling a different function once is not recursion.
 
Xeo
@ThePhD Fancy indices \o/
 
Anyway. I got to the point where I figured I can't stop myself spilling shit, so I might as well just get better equipment to reduce the impact of a spilling.
 
2:54 PM
@EtiennedeMartel the only downside is most of them you have to hand wash. so If you're lazy like me, it may be a pain.
 
(Fun thing is that I never spilled anything at home, but at work it's the third time in three months)
 
Xeo
I managed to spill someone elses coffee once so far
 
@EtiennedeMartel Just position things optimally for non-spillage!
 
user3010322
That takes dedication.
 
It's suboptimal for drinkage, but TANSTAAFL.
 
2:56 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes That works too.
 
Two days ago I spilled my tea thrice.
In half an hour.
 
Ouch.
 
@rightfold ^ :3
 
user1804599
COOOL!
 
Luckily I was home I could just change pants.
 
user3010322
2:57 PM
Visual Scripting language!
 
you can move them and stuff. Source
 
Why were you wearing pants at home?
 
Glad I didn't decide to change pants right after the first or second times, or I would have changed them twice.
@Ak_Crusader I don't live alone?
 
@ThePhD VSL. I like that name :)
or VDSL
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes i'm sure they wouldn't mind.
 
user3010322
2:58 PM
Sandvich.
 
if only JS had real function signatures :F
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz gist.github.com/rightfold/11257834 ftfy
 
My flatmates weren't around, but the babysitter was.
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz TypeScript!
 
@rightfold right
@rightfold We were thinking about it but essentially Traceur gives us more options, I think.
 

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